What is the best training floor (Help!)

[Bill Glasheen]

Any of you folks that know me, have trained with me, or have discussed grappling topics with me know that I have a beef with the traditional wooden-floored Okinawan dojo. It's pretty... It's traditional (whatever that is...). It's what's available in many gyms....

But there are aikidoka like me, jiujitsuka like Jack Summers, Joe Pomfret, Mike Murphy, and Sal (a.k.a. bornsinner), and others that like to take it to the ground now and then. And let us not forget some of the other professionals out there like Rory.

American Family Fitness Center in Richmond is a local business pheonomenon. Gold's Gym and the like can't hold a candle to them. Like the Ukrops food market chain, it's a raging local success that is expanding faster than they can build the buildings. Already the 4 or 5-year-old gym built out in the West End suburbs here is bursting out of the seams. With a brand new Nordstroms being built down the road, the owner of the chain has a chance to build another bigger, better gym across from it.

And... I have a chance to have some say-so in what floor they will build in the multi-purpose room where we will train.

What have I seen that I liked? The very best floor I ever worked on is in Nebraska. David Lamb teaches gymnastics to kids... and trains his Uechika on the "floor routine" surface. Wonder how those little pixies can dive and flip like they do? Spring-loaded floor. I uderstand the WWF works on something like that. It.s nice. The surface is firm and you won't get your toes caught in it. But you can do running dive rolls, and aren't afraid to get slammed down on it (except for the wind getting knocked out of you perhaps). It's not quite a judo training floor, but then you can't do good karate on a floor with too much compliance.

Those interlocking mats are interesting. Cheap, and can be moved. They come in various thicknesses. It's what the WKF uses (one particular thickness level, not sure which).

Khoury has some kind of mat surface strung over some kind of padding on a concrete floor. It's interesting... Seems like an errant wooden knife in FMA training (or sai in kobudo training) might poke a hole in that expensive cover though...

Any ideas folks? We are looking, and the decision needs to be made soon. Recommendations to specific manufacturers, websites, etc. would be appreciated.

- Bill

[mikemurphy]

Bill sensei,

I have the Swain mats in my dojo and they are great. I've had them in for almost 7 years and they have withstood the test of time. They are sturdy enough for karate and soft enough to take a fall (and we do some falling alright). Also, my sensei in Jujitsu had real tatami mats from Japan that were excellent. Although I didn't study them thoroughly, I thought they were great. I also didn't do karate on them, so I'll leave that comment up to a few of you who have been to Japan.

mike

[TSDguy]

I have to agree about the Swain mats. It really is a nice surface... durable, firm, soft, cheap all at the same time. They're also 'hard' enough you don't have to worry about your students getting soft during throws.

[Bruce Hirabayashi]

Bill sensei,

I have the Swain mats in my dojo and they are great. I've had them in for almost 7 years and they have withstood the test of time. They are sturdy enough for karate and soft enough to take a fall (and we do some falling alright).

mike

Hi Mike!

Which Swain mat do you use?

http://www.swainsportsintl.com/f_flooring.htm


Do you know anything about Tiffen Mats? Are the comparable?

http://www.tiffinmats.com/html/martial_arts.htm



Cheers,

Bruce

[mikemurphy]

Bruce sensei,

There is no real decision here. The Swain Gold Medal mats (which I have) are thicker and more durable. I don't know much about the Tiffen mats, but other than no creases on the custom made mats, the Swain stuff looks like they are better made. As you can see, I've been real happy with my stuff.

Hope that helps. And btw, none of this stuff is cheap!

mike

[Bruce Hirabayashi]

Bruce sensei,

There is no real decision here. The Swain Gold Medal mats (which I have) are thicker and more durable. I don't know much about the Tiffen mats, but other than no creases on the custom made mats, the Swain stuff looks like they are better made. As you can see, I've been real happy with my stuff.

Hope that helps. And btw, none of this stuff is cheap!

mike

Thanks for the info, Mike-Sensei. I wasn't sure which of the Swains you had purchased: "Gold", "Silver" or "Bronze". And you're absolutely right, good quality mats are quite expensive!

While such high-quality mats are easily justifiable for dedicated commercial (meaning "money-generating") Martial Arts schools like yours and Gary's (or perhaps even for Bill's American Fitness Center), I'm looking at options for my non-revenue 11.5' x 28' painted cement basement at home. Spending $1600 ($1800 if you add shipping) for Swain mats isn't currently (or perhaps ever) in the budget. Maybe if I hit the Powerball Lottery ...

The additional problem I have is that there's moderate seepage in the basement once every 5 years (e.g., during El Ninõ years). 2003 is one of those years, and I've had to spend some time with the Wet/Dry vac getting rid of the water. Kinda prevents you from considering permanent floor options (e.g., plywood) without first putting in some sort of fancy drainage system (another $1800).

At this point, I've begun to convince myself of the virtues of a painted basement floor ... e.g., your students learn to land lightly on their feet like cats! And if they do roll, they do it very carefully ... sort of how they'd have to do it in the street. At least that's what I tell myself ...

Thanks again for the input!

Bruce

[Drona]

Bruce what about those interlocking rubber ones like they sell at H Depot and are sometimes seen in weight rooms? I put them in my basement. Mainly because the cement was so cold. If it gets wet they can be picked up. They really don't absorb water and although mine don't go tight against the wall they cover good enough. They would be better than hitting bone on bare cement but are not like standing on a matress so you get a good footing.

[Norm Abrahamson]

There is an outfit called Zebra Mats. The web site shows a lot of mats in a pretty wide price range. I haven't used them personally, so I can't vouch from experience, but it may have something you can use.

The web site is: http://zebramats.com/

Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson

[Drona]

Doing a quick estimate I think you could do your floor in those interlocking mats for about $400. I figured $20 pr 16sq/ft. = four mats pr pack at $20 pr. Good luck shopping Bruce

[Glenn]

What have I seen that I liked? The very best floor I ever worked on is in Nebraska. David Lamb teaches gymnastics to kids... and trains his Uechika on the "floor routine" surface. Wonder how those little pixies can dive and flip like they do? Spring-loaded floor. I uderstand the WWF works on something like that. It.s nice. The surface is firm and you won't get your toes caught in it. But you can do running dive rolls, and aren't afraid to get slammed down on it (except for the wind getting knocked out of you perhaps). It's not quite a judo training floor, but then you can't do good karate on a floor with too much compliance.

<snip>

Any ideas folks? We are looking, and the decision needs to be made soon. Recommendations to specific manufacturers, websites, etc. would be appreciated.

- Bill

The answer is simple: Take over a nearby gymnastics gym! You get the floor you like and you get it fast. And how much resistance could those gymnists put up anyway!

On a more usable note, the spring-loaded gymnastics floor is great but can lead to overconfidence, which can lead to injury. You can't just assume that with such a forgiving floor you won't be injured. I don't have any statistics but I read somewhere that head/neck injuries have increased in some forms of football as the helmet became manditory and helmet technology has improved. The interpretation of this is that the players are being overconfident about the protection provided by the helmets, and taking more risks and trying things they wouldn't try without the helmet.

Something to keep in mind.

[Rick Wilson]

I agree that a soft surface can lead to overconfidence; however, good training in breakfalls will help in the end even on hard surfaces.

I learned to breakfall in Judo and Jujitsu on tatami. The Jujitsu was the old kind.

When I was paving one summer I jumped on the running boards of the dump truck as we headed back to the other end to make another pull the door of the truck opened knocking me off.

I can’t say how fast we were going but it was somewhere between 40 and 60 km per hour.

The first thing I learned is I cannot run that fast. I hit the pavement and tried to run but I was moving fast and my feet were ripped out from under me. I tucked and rolled, and tucked and rolled and tucked and rolled and, well, you get the idea. I am not sure how many times I rolled to dissipate the inertia. At the end I had a small scrape on my forehead were I did not tuck enough on one roll and a sore hand from striking the ground.

I had only fallen on mats, and although some were the older harder kind in the end breakfalls came through for me.