How to win friends and influence people (NOT)

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Bill Glasheen
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How to win friends and influence people (NOT)

Post by Bill Glasheen »

This in the press today.

Huge explosion rocks U.N. headquarters in Iraq

A worthy quote.
Like the Jordan bombing, the attack — a vehicle bomb, a high-profile target with many civilians inside...
Golly, we really have to admire that, don't we?

Wonder how many virgins (IN HELL :twisted: ) are waiting for the "hero?"

Gee, let's go have a cup of tea with these folks and find out what they want. We need to reward such direct communication... And now that we have victims from so many in the world community, we know others will want to join us in the welcoming party.

:roll: - Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Gosh, and I thought major combat was over in Iraq...

Gene
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gene

Normally I would let this go, as I fully understand how torn people feel over a subject like Iraq. We all love our soldiers and want to support those that risk their lives for freedom, but this is one really messy, controversial conflict with half truths on ALL sides. It's easy to see how feelings run strong.

However... This is a different animal. This is why I started this post. To wit, take a look at the headline in the paper today, as well as the article beneath.

Signs point to outsiders in Iraq

Note - the headline changes by the minute in this article

Opearation Iraqi Freedom - for better or for worse - is a watershed event in the Middle East. It is one of the first attempts at democracy in one of these filthy rich oil countries with a predominantly Muslim population. The implication for neighboring states (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, etc., etc.) is not small. If an Iraqi democracy is successful, "the natives" may become restless.

Remember - it was 19 Saudis that executed 9/11. Think about it...

- Bill
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Bill,

In all due respects, it was 15 of the 19 that were Saudi's.....
Opearation Iraqi Freedom - for better or for worse - is a watershed event in the Middle East. It is one of the first attempts at democracy in one of these filthy rich oil countries with a predominantly Muslim population.
I agree with you Bill that,
this is one really messy, controversial conflict with half truths on ALL sides.
Among the Muslims, I can assure you that the vast majority of us do not believe that the US's purpose is to set up democracy in the region, but rather to control the region with the appearance of democracy.

Notice that there is no way the US is going to let the majority population of Iraq decide who shall run that country, lest they dare to elect an ISlamist government.......

Notice also that there is no way that the US, or the UN is going to let the Kurds have their own homeland as was done with Isreal. The Kurds have no home. Anybody care enough to do something about it, like change the arbitrary borders of Iran, Iraq and Turkey put in place post WWI.


If the US was really interested in democracy, they would have eliminated Saddam Hussein back when Reagan or Bush I was President, but back then we were busy making excuses and arming Saddam, not worrying about whether or not he was supporting democratic prinicples or not.

You cant just ignore the need democracy one week or one decade and then be for it the next, hoping that everyone will jump on the bandwagon once you have said you are finally ready to support democracy. Your covert and overt wars have involved decades of supporting & propping up dictators while simultaneously putting down democractic governtments cuz they dared to nationalize industries or fail to support your policies in lock step agreement (not real democracy).

Anybody ever read Ho Chi Minh's "Decalaration of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam" written in 1945.

"All men are created equal; they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness....

....The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the rights of man and the citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights
Those are undeniable truths.
Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the Frech Imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equailty, and Fraternity have violated our fatherland and oppressed our fellow citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice."

Ho chi minh's declaration of Vietnam's independence was written post WWII, 1945, where, after the Japanese are kicked out, the french are let back in to be the colonizers of Vietnam once again (not the supporters of democracy). Ho chi Minh looks to the US for help in expelling the French and gets nothing but ignored. Later, he turns to the Soviet Union for support in getting the French off their backs, but only after coming to us first (why, because our democracy is so compelling, right?), but we refuse to help and push them into the hands of the USSR........and then we replace the French as the main colonizers and we continue the war that the French started some almost a hundred years before.

congrats to the US.....they are the real supporters of democracy.......but only where we see fit (not in any 3rd world country, that would deproive us of revenue).......

Anybody remember the coup in venezuela (that was this year for those of you who say we Muslims are living in the past)......Here is another example of a popluarly elected government, which has oil riches and is not a Muslim majority country....THe US worked real hard to overthrow that democratically elected government and they are not even Muslim, but they had lots of oil............KNow of any oil exporting countries that happen to be a democracy? me neither.....MAkes me wonder why? Perhaps the powers that be, all supposed democracies, aren't very interested in supporting democracy for the rest of the world...........you dont have to be Muslim for them to decide they dont like you, all you have to do is nationalize yoru oil industry and try to use those revenues to improve the lot of the vast majority of the poeple.....we will label you a commuinist cuz you dare to improve your schools and then send the cia after you and try to wipe you out clandestinely or covertly (arent those real cool words depicting real nasty acts).......aint democracy a wonderful thing......


Among the Muslims, I can assure you that the vast majority of us do not believe that the US's purpose is to set up democracy in the region. Why? Well, despite the fact that most agree that the US is indeed a fruitfull and successful democracy, it has never been their whole hearted goal to export democracy throughout the world......Democracy is not meant for those people because they cant handle it....they are violent, despicable people who can never undersatand the responsibilities of living in a democracy, and that is why we deny them the opportunity to form a democracy at every turn.........and then when they fail to form a democracy, we say, see, they cant form democracy, their religion is against it......no siree bob.....the religion as exported by the wahhabis (saudi) and supported by the US (Bush, et al) does not allow the democratic freedoms that we all hold dear, while more traditional Islam is very open to democratic ideals, but that is not the Islam that Saudi spreads......The tolerant Islam that the vast majority of Muslims follow, is 100% guarenteed to never get press coverage in the US........

If 500 million Muslims got together figuratively (say on the net) and renounced terror violence, you would find that event to be last page news while the bombing of a single Muslim would make front page news with the largets possible font......

Have you supported democracy today?

ATH
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I have supported and actively support your right to speak. Even if I disagree with what you have to say, I will defend your right to say it. Thank you for being so frank.

Much of what you say about the U.S. in the past is true. Some of it takes liberties with the facts in history. (For instance, in Desert Storm there was no U.N. mandate to eliminate Sadaam. The coalition was there ONLY to throw the Iraqis out of Kuwait - period. We ATTEMPTED to help the Iraqis rebel against Sadaam after the war, but he chose to unleash his armies on his own populace. Hence the creation of the "no fly zones.")

To support much of what you say... It can be summed up by a quip from Teddy Roosevelt when describing a dictator in South America
He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch
While you may see what's being attempted in Afghanistan and Iraq as efforts by the U.S. to reclaim its virginity, the truth is that the events in 9/11 made first Afghanistan and then Iraqi Freedom inevitable. What was Bin Laden thinking??? There's a darned good reason why he ended up in a cesspool like post-Communist Afghanistan, run by extremists.

Personally I'm glad the Taliban are gone, and wish we had inflicted more pain in the process. I find the situation in Iraq quite distasteful, and if you had bothered to follow my forum, you would have found many, many thoughtful posts on the sordid history of U.S. vs. Iraq vs. Iran relations that led up to the mess we got ourselves into. Even going back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire!

That being said, what do we do now? Feel bad about our injustices and so just grab our ankles and take it? Not very wise... Rational behavior needs to start somewhere.

It was with great distaste that I tolerated my country's intervention in Iraq, and the half truths used to justify it. It's just that those half truths were in the same "whopper" league with all the despicable deeds of the French and the Russians with the "palaces for oil" (a.k.a. food for oil) programs. Now that the son-of-a-bitch that NOBODY liked is gone, it is our responsibility (by international law) to see to it that Iraq is rebuilt.
Notice that there is no way the US is going to let the majority population of Iraq decide who shall run that country, lest they dare to elect an ISlamist government.......
Not true. Look at the loya jurgas that the U.S. supported in Afghanistan. We and the international community are allowing for a Muslim-based government to be formed in that country.

That being said, it IS true that we are actively attempting to keep Iran and their Shi-ite extremists OUT of Iraqi business. There is no hiding that. GOOD!!!! They tried to kill Sadaam and failed. To the victor goes the spoils.

Furthermore, I personally think religion-based governments are a really, really stupid idea. Please appreciate what I am about to say. I no more want to see an Islamic government in ANY country than I want to see Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or any of those other Christian idiots have any influence on MY OWN government - in spite of the fact that I send my son to a (nondenominational) Christian school. One principle instituted in this country by Thomas Jefferson was an article on religious freedom. Please come to Virginia some time and visit his grave. (Stop by and see me when you do! :) ) He was proud of three things, and listed them on his grave.

1) Signer of the Declaration of Independence
2) Founder of the University of Virginia
3) Author of an article on religious freedom

This is nothing short of amazing! There is NOTHING in there about being the 3rd president of the United States!!!! That 3rd article above protects your right as a Muslim to practice your faith, and keep the damned Christians out of your business. Freedom to practice religion also equates to freedom FROM religion. Why should Iraq have a Muslim government when not all Iraqis are Muslims? Or Shi-ite Muslims? Or Sunni Muslims? Etc., etc.? Sadaam Hussein was a modern day Hitler, but he got it right on the secular government piece (even though the minority Sunnis had a corrupt influence on the government). It's one of the few things that kept the Sunnis and Shi-ites and Kurds (and countless minorities) together.

I defend you right to be a Muslim, and will fight (in a war no less) to keep Jerry Fallwell from making your kids spout Christian propaganda in the public schools or in our court system. But I will not support you or others attempting to subject your own brand of oppression (a Muslim theocracy) in any government.

Off of soap box...
Notice also that there is no way that the US, or the UN is going to let the Kurds have their own homeland as was done with Isreal. The Kurds have no home. Anybody care enough to do something about it, like change the arbitrary borders of Iran, Iraq and Turkey put in place post WWI.
You are absolutely right. However if we attempted to do this, we'd have the Turkish army in northern Iraq in a New York second. It would destabilize the area, and possibly lead to a "Balkanization" of the region. One big cluster f***. It's a great idea in principle, but there's no good way to implement it that I or others can think of.

But after the way Turkey treated us by not allowing for a northern offensive from their borders (and they SHOULD have, given NATO agreements), I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if we "allowed" or "encouraged" it to happen.

Ahh, the soap opera of world politics. This is why, Akil, I want to tell the Middle East to create their own hell, and get 100% of our energy from inside our borders. It AIN'T MY BUSINESS!!! Give me my diesel-engined vehicle (which I have been writing about) and I will gladly run it on soybean-based diesel fuel. Keep your oil, and make your own political decisions - for better or for worse.

I wish it were that simple; unfortunately it isn't. But I'm doing my part! Think globally; act locally. Yes, I am doing my part, and I'm proud of it.

Sir... :-)

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Hi Bill,
I'm sorry to say that you are quite wrong on this one :( ........that is the way to win friends...and the ranks of Hammas and Al Qaeda are swelling as we speak :cry: ......the war is not over, in fact it's only just beginning.
In my country there have been reqruits from places like Bradford...there are lots of Pakistanis in my country, and many more illegal immigrants :x ......who really shouldn't be here, but who my Government refuse to throw out. Look at the " English" prisoners held in the USA ( personally I'd take them out and shoot them ).....and all the who har about their " Human Rights".
But the problem is that folks in the US just do not understand them. In America you seem unaware of the effect that your actions have on other people. I remember speaking about the way Bill Clinton went to Ireland to meet the head of the IRA ( political wing)......and the viewpoint seemed to be , from one source at least, that they hadn't voted for teflon Bill.....so it was ok....it wasn't. Your country supported terrorists who attacked my country.I don't know what the Agenda is for these terror attacks but I do know that " Suicide" bombing is a Hammas tactic and that they hire out suicide bombers......I also know that they have contact with ( surprise, surprise) the IRA.
What I found really disgusting was the news that your Government was going to cut the Armies pay, I'm glad to see they stopped that one, but it just shows you the kinda people you've got in Government.
I'm usually indifferent to a lot of politicians but I really hate Blair...and Bush.
I agree with your ideas about a Sustainable environment. ( I think that most of the terrorists would as well)...unfortunately there is too much greed in your country, the petrol industry will never allow it.....just look at all the world pollution levels ignored and abused by the US just so you can drive around in cheap gas guzzling cars
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Post by newguy »

jorvik wrote:Your country supported terrorists who attacked my country
This is rank nonsense. President Clinton travelled to N. Ireland in support of the peace process. He did meet with the political wings of terrorist groups - both Republican and Unionist - in support of the peace process.

You, of course, are free to disagree with his decisions on this manner. But to state that my country 'supported' any terrorists in N. Ireland - with the implication that we armed, trained or otherwise abetted them - is not only untrue, but quite insulting. By your logic we may infer that since President Clinton rec'd Arafat at the White House while encouraging that peace process, he 'supports' PLO violence and terror. Again, rank nonsense.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The fact that you have a stage (on this forum), and the fact that I don't fit your profile as someone who would seek to purchase a gas-sucking SUV should say something about the dangers of generaling and stereotyping.

We live in interesting times. The plot ain't over.

Oddly enough, jorvik, much of the world felt like you when Iraqi Freedom commenced. But when suicide bombers blow up innocent civilians from many countries (UN workers, most of whom were not from the U.S.), they generate anger and create support from people who once would have sided with their cause. This is my point.

Would the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan have been possible without 9/11? Clinton was trying to "off" Bin Laden for years. He even launched a cruise missle at him. Once the twin towers went down, George W had license (and world sympathy) to kick bootie. What good did it do the Taliban in Afghanistan? These days, even the Russians are sharing information with us. Lately they helped set up a sting where they shipped suface-to-air missles to someone in New York who was going to sell them to an individual who said he would take U.S. passenger planes down. Thank you, Russia! This wouldn't have happened without clear examples of the senseless killing of large numbers of innocents.

The IRA is another story. And not all Irish who despise Britain's role and history in Ireland would kill innocents. (I include myself in that group) Furthermore, Clinton did much to contribute to a rather interesting stage in Catholic/Protestant relations in that country. You did know he was a Protestant, right? The IRA is a Catholic group, right? It has been a bit quiet, no? Have you noted the political progress? Don't knock success. These things take time.

"Soft" targets may be "easy" targets. They may get lots of press. But I seriously doubt the end is favorable for the perpetrators.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

This is why I stick by Jefferson's article on religious freedom.

Associate Alabama justices order monument's removal

Once again, a small group of extremists fails to see the reason why government and religion never mix. Apparently they forget the reasons why many of our founding fathers came to the colonies in the first place - to escape religious persecution. Apparently they forgot the influence the Catholic church had on governments and monarchies in centuries past. Apparently they forgot the Crusades. Apparently they forgot religious persecution of scientists.

Somehow it's fine if it's my religion. But don't you dare let those Moonies take over businesses and operate without taxation. And we can't have the Shi-ites running Iran, now, can we?

This is why I support the U.S. efforts to prevent a Muslim government, Akil. If this judge were in your back yard, you just might be offended.

It's best that we tolerate all religions, so we have the freedom to practice our own (or not). It's best we leave individuals to their own beliefs and their own lifestyles, and get government out of our lives as much and as often as possible.
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
- Thomas Jefferson

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

I think that you both missed my point...it is not what happens ,,,,but how it is percieved by others. To the Arabs and Iraqi's, NATO is the US...and yes it was an easy target but so was armagh.
Many Americans contributed their greenbacks for the " Old" country, Catholic priests supported the Ira....It isn't that much different to what is going on now.
In the US you have to support the three "I"' s I think Regan said that ...the Israeli's the Italians and the Irish to get into power and sustain it... and that is what Clinton did.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Hey, you got a problem with that?

Image

Nothing wrong with garnering a little political influence via hard work and achievement. The Irish are proud to be recognized as a force to be reckoned with. Not bad considering they were the "niggers" of the new world (treated as such by the white Anglo Saxon Protestants) when they first came over during the potato famine.

I'm sure other ethnic groups would think the same, or would be proud to be one of those "I's." Thank god for our melting pot... er... salad bowl.

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

I think the " Muslims" are more of a force to be reckoned than the Irish.....but only time will tell :wink:
sarosenc
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religious freedom

Post by sarosenc »

Bill

This is directed towards your comments on freedom of religion. I agree, and thank you for you quote from Jefferson, that government controlled religion leads to many pitfalls. But, my opinion is that is not why we are there fighting and dying in Iraq. The purpose of the U.S. military is to fight and win wars -- whether foreign or domestic -- period. War was already declared 12 years ago and now we are finally finishing it. Is it a mess? Yes! That is why we call it war. We must protect our Constitutional freedoms at home and abroad. To serve in the military is a privilege not a right.
... small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mttw 7:14
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Hi Bill,

None of the colonies tolerated religious freedom; save for Maryland. It's founder, George Calvert, was a Catholic but a friend of the King. Maryland, therefore, was the only colony that tolerated religious tolerance for Christains (which is why Maryland is called The Free State). But you knew this

Also, until the Constitution was ratified, Jews and Catholics were prohibited from holding public office in Massachusetts. Massachsuetts Bay COlony, in 1656, even outlawed the migration of Quakers into the colony.

Sadly, stories like this abound in early colonial history. And while the Catholics take heat for the Crusades, and the Spanish church is at fault for the Spanish Inquisition and Protestants use these events to resist the Church, the hands of the Protestants aren't exactly squeeky clean either.

Freedom of Relgion is a relatively modern, and still a rather precarious achievement.....

And I really want to know what problem Judge Moore has with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".....

Jorvic,

Would you like to start a thread on the British and NI troubles? Be sure to include the Battle of the Boyne, the triumphalist and in-your-face Orange Order marches and the Irish Potato Famine, to name a few, key subjects.

And only when the British adopt a Constitutional provision that says "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust", like we do here, and allow a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim to ascend to the throne, will I allow a Brit to lecture me on religious tolerance. Not that you are, of course. But just for fair warning.

And Bill's right. Last I heard, NI is pretty quiet. Not too many firebombings or Catholic houses by Protestants lately, are there? It took a lot of effort....and US help with the negotiations.

Sarosenc,

War was declared 12 years ago? There was a declaration by Cpngress? I know there were certain resolutions passed by Congress authorizing the President to take military action against Iraq over time, but I don't remember a declaration of war. Could you point that out to me in the Congressional record? I'd be really interested to read it. And religious tolerance and religious freedom never was the reason why we invaded Iraq this time; but with each passing day it becomes less and less obvious that protecting our Constitutional freedoms was a legitimate reason either. Remove that, and the legitimacy of the war teeters on collapse. This has been covered elsewhere, and I'd be glad to expound if you'd like to start another thread.

Gene
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"Hey, you got a problem with that?"

Post by Topos »

Bill,

The charming Leprachaun you posted brought back fond remembrances of my growing up in South Boston ('the Irish Riviera' [grin]). One of the positives I really internalized as a child of 3 in the early 1940's was that I was never going to smoke as it made your skin pale with brown spots on it (freckles) and and your hair red as all the older Irish kids in my neighborhood looked like as they smoked. As I grew older and met 'black Irish', those with ancestors from the Armada who landed on the Emerald Shores and intelligently stayed and married, I realized the powerful influences that chilhood impressions from within and from one's peers has on shaping how you perceive your genetic 'brothers' from different cultures, skin color, even streets (the gang across the street were the enemy even though they also went to the Gate of Heaven Chruch or the Orthodox Church).

At NASA in the 1960's I worked with a recent graduate from Harvard, 'Clem', who was in Leary's first legal experiments with LSD, etc. and a former Black Marine, 'Herm'. Celm had grown up in a privlliged family from the South and exuded "White Man's Guilt".
Discussing civil rights with Herm, Celm was frustrated that his credentials on the issue were not taken seriously, to the point where in frustration he made an intemperate remark. Herm almost rose from his seat to tear him apart. I intervened, defusing the situaton by pointing out what Clem was really trying to say.

Turning, Herm then tried to lay a guilt trip on me and how my white folks also oppressed his. Not missing a beat I shot back with, as best as I remember

"Herm, you are full of crap. It was YOUR PEOPLE who enslaved my people for 500 years until we were able to overthrow them in the Balkan Wars!!!![feigned fury]"

Herm and Clem paused, and after a few seconds Herm chided in that he did not undrstand what the hell I was talking about. I responded "Herm, for 500 years your ancestors the Turks enslaved the Albanians and Greeks. We finally tossed your asses out!!!!"

Herm and Clem almost simultaneously chided in that the Blacks were not Turks. Causually, with some diffidence, I sneered "Blacks, Turks, you all look the same to me".

They burst into belly laughs, realizing that I had mirrored their banter in a reductio ad absurdum version of my heritage. Later we all became the best of friends (even Clem who tried to grow a pot plant in a Federal office, in keeping with his version of Civil Disobedience [grin])

The rancor and hatred in the Middle East is understandable to me. Time has no meaning to some cultures: a hurt that happened 500 years ago to your 'family' happened to you today! Unfortunately it will end not with words and fond hopes but with the complete extirpation of the core haters. It is to be hoped that the next generation will not grow up with the cradle to grave indoctrinaton of hatred. It would be wonderful if we could see bumper stickers on the rear ends of camels " BREAK THE VIOLENCE CYCLE". (O.K. Pick on my for another snide remark, don't blame me, blame it on YOUR people having enslaved MY people for 500 years [GRIN!!!]

As usual, Bill, your insights are sage. Thanks.
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