When I first read the article, I thought being Kween a joke.
http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0 ... 96,00.html
Only in California
Only in California
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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Arnisador84
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:28 am
- Location: Pullman, WA
Ridiculous
It's nice to break barriers, but this goes against equality. People sometimes...
Andrew Heuett
Andrew Heuett
--How does it go against equality?
--What was taken away from the boys?
--What is revealed by the comment of Saied Haddad that it would be harder for a boy to run for queen than for a girl to run as king?
--What message does a rigid definition of King and Queen send to every student who wouldn't choose an opposite-gender partner? They're as excluded from this tradition as would be a black student if the royalty were defined as white.
--Would you overrule the students if they decided to choose a couple (or not) in a way that didn't suit you? I might (depending on what it was).
Who can get so upset about what one high school democratically votes in as their homecoming royalty anyway?
--What was taken away from the boys?
--What is revealed by the comment of Saied Haddad that it would be harder for a boy to run for queen than for a girl to run as king?
--What message does a rigid definition of King and Queen send to every student who wouldn't choose an opposite-gender partner? They're as excluded from this tradition as would be a black student if the royalty were defined as white.
--Would you overrule the students if they decided to choose a couple (or not) in a way that didn't suit you? I might (depending on what it was).
Who can get so upset about what one high school democratically votes in as their homecoming royalty anyway?
--Ian
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Arnisador84
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:28 am
- Location: Pullman, WA
I can see what you mean about the hetero domination thing. There is quite a bit of merit to that.
All I meant was that in the standard King/Queen system, one girl gets to be royalty, and one guy gets to be royalty. It's pretty rare that a couple becomes royalty together, so it doesn't seem to me to usually be a relationship thing.
If the student body really wants to have two girls as their royalty, there's no sense in trying stopping them. To each their own I suppose.
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Andrew Heuett
All I meant was that in the standard King/Queen system, one girl gets to be royalty, and one guy gets to be royalty. It's pretty rare that a couple becomes royalty together, so it doesn't seem to me to usually be a relationship thing.
If the student body really wants to have two girls as their royalty, there's no sense in trying stopping them. To each their own I suppose.
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Andrew Heuett
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
The title King traditionally refers to the male. Should I call you Maam? I doubt it. It is not what they call in sociology "the norm".What was taken away from the boys?
Once again tradition. Though you may not like this.. it is very offending to a lot of Men to be called a queen. I think thats what he meant.What is revealed by the comment of Saied Haddad that it would be harder for a boy to run for queen than for a girl to run as king?
I don't think any message is intended... it's just the way things have always been. I guess you could change the titles to most popular, that way anyone could win.--What message does a rigid definition of King and Queen send to every student who wouldn't choose an opposite-gender partner? They're as excluded from this tradition as would be a black student if the royalty were defined as white.
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
No dispute that the title King usually refers to the male... but this doesn't mean the males have lost anything significant if there's a female King one year. Afterall, the valedictorian and salutatorian roles don't guarantee gender equality--more likely to be both girls these days since girls tend to best boys at their studies in recent years--and if someone DID insist that there always be a girl assigned to one of those roles, Limbaugh and his peers would feign a seizure and pretend the world was falling apart again. Why? Because limiting things by gender is, in its simplist form, anti-individual and anti-competitive and so anti-American.
Would this title be any different? Only if its purpose is to uphold traditional gender roles at the school. What official purpose would THAT serve? None by my eye. I would let the students vote in whomever they please.
B, you are right that Haddad is indicating a boy called a queen is more likely to be offended than a girl called a king. The reason why: its a sexist society. Look up the first word's in Madonna's "What it feels like for a girl." If these kids help break down this sexism, I say power to 'em.
Would this title be any different? Only if its purpose is to uphold traditional gender roles at the school. What official purpose would THAT serve? None by my eye. I would let the students vote in whomever they please.
B, you are right that Haddad is indicating a boy called a queen is more likely to be offended than a girl called a king. The reason why: its a sexist society. Look up the first word's in Madonna's "What it feels like for a girl." If these kids help break down this sexism, I say power to 'em.
--Ian
That's a totally legit sentiment, but my reference is really only to a sampled piece of dialog not her lyrics, and regardless, they can stand or fall on their own merit. It's not the speaker but the words I was supporting. Here's the passage in question, which is not that profound but useful in how straightforward it is:
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
In two parts:
1) a female taking on male roles is more acceptable than a male taking on female roles. This isn't really a matter of dispute; Whoopi showing up to host an award show in a tux looked sharp; if Billy Crystal had come in a ballroom dress, that would have looked outrageous.
2) The reason this is so is because we live in a sexist society, and women, and things associated with them, are second class. Certainly we hold women in high esteem, but often in that they are objects of beauty, which in the end is a role subservient to others. Why is it so threatening to a male to have female characteristics? Some are ok these days (tenderness, empathy) but there's also a lot of anti-woman in the tone of social conventions. No one wants to go to jail and be some Bubba's "bitch," which is an assertion that being used sexually is a female role. Ought to be no one's role. In some latin american cultures disdain for a male engaging in same sex relations is limited to the one in the "female" role--why, unless being feminized in that way is degrading? I have seen a parent slap his male five year old in the mall for drawing on their nails for a crayon--what's the big deal? Sissy, you throw like a girl... another example of how (supposedly) feminine characteristics are commonly used to insult males.
Why does this matter? If boys can't run for queen as girls can run for king, which is really how they're all viewing this, then they're going to feel slighted and robbed. Their territory has been invaded, although really, what difference does Prom royalty make? It FEELS bad to them. The funny thing is its an experience the girls have had to swallow without recourse for decades--when the budding astrophysicist was driven into home economics, and their choices greatly cut off. The best thing would be for a relaxed highschool where people could have fun with this tradition without anyone feeling wronged. However, this lil spark set off a significant bang at this highschool, which implies to me it occured in the setting of a lot of pent up or unresolved gender based discomfort.
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
In two parts:
1) a female taking on male roles is more acceptable than a male taking on female roles. This isn't really a matter of dispute; Whoopi showing up to host an award show in a tux looked sharp; if Billy Crystal had come in a ballroom dress, that would have looked outrageous.
2) The reason this is so is because we live in a sexist society, and women, and things associated with them, are second class. Certainly we hold women in high esteem, but often in that they are objects of beauty, which in the end is a role subservient to others. Why is it so threatening to a male to have female characteristics? Some are ok these days (tenderness, empathy) but there's also a lot of anti-woman in the tone of social conventions. No one wants to go to jail and be some Bubba's "bitch," which is an assertion that being used sexually is a female role. Ought to be no one's role. In some latin american cultures disdain for a male engaging in same sex relations is limited to the one in the "female" role--why, unless being feminized in that way is degrading? I have seen a parent slap his male five year old in the mall for drawing on their nails for a crayon--what's the big deal? Sissy, you throw like a girl... another example of how (supposedly) feminine characteristics are commonly used to insult males.
Why does this matter? If boys can't run for queen as girls can run for king, which is really how they're all viewing this, then they're going to feel slighted and robbed. Their territory has been invaded, although really, what difference does Prom royalty make? It FEELS bad to them. The funny thing is its an experience the girls have had to swallow without recourse for decades--when the budding astrophysicist was driven into home economics, and their choices greatly cut off. The best thing would be for a relaxed highschool where people could have fun with this tradition without anyone feeling wronged. However, this lil spark set off a significant bang at this highschool, which implies to me it occured in the setting of a lot of pent up or unresolved gender based discomfort.
--Ian
