Modifying Kumite

[Dana Sheets]

So I've got an issue of late with the idea that in Yakosuko Kumite and Dan Kumite I'm supposed to block a grown man's front kick with my arm.

Honestly - it ain't gonna work for me unless a raging 5' 3" woman of under 125 pounds attacks. Most of the karateka I train with are 175lbs or more and closer to six feet than five. It's a question of physics.

Uechi, as a system, (to me) clearly shows that one of the most favorite ways of dealing with a kick is to raise your own leg to block it.

Now the hands must be alive in case the kick is higher than the mid-section and all that - but really. To me Uechi never suggests touching a leg with an arm unless you're dropped down in a horse stance and that's risky business or if the kick is coming above the waist. So why so much emphasis on stopping round and front kicks with arms?

I also think folks learn a really bad habit of kicking and leaving their leg out there so their partner can "block" it. Now everyone is learning bad habits - the kicker leaves their leg out and the "blocker" thinks they've got the timing down. (Not talking about white belts doing this - I'm talking about watching black belts doing Dan Kumite doing this)

I'm baffled.

[Deep Sea]

Now the hands must be alive in case the kick is higher than the mid-section and all that - but really. To me Uechi never suggests touching a leg with an arm unless you're dropped down in a horse stance and that's risky business or if the kick is coming above the waist.

I’ve done what you cannot understand thousands of times, Dana, and you don't want to crouch down. Often kicks to the head are so weak that just raising your forearm from Sanchin or Crane position will stop it before it hits the head.

If one is to block/deflect against a kick, the best way I found through different styles I’ve engaged in, is from what I read on the Uechi patch. What it means to me from countless sparring in Uechi and in foot styles, and can be and sometimes is translated as "high-low style." Block low attacks with the lower part of the body and higher attacks with the upper part of the body. Say the same thing for striking.

I’ve often used sweeping downblocks against front kicks, and hard ones too. If someone wants to nail you with a front kick, say to the gut, back up to avoid the penetration as you dig your knuckles into the [soft spot] side of the attacker’s shin for dissuasion. Catch him there a few times and he’ll be using another kick instead for the rest of the sparring match or for the evening for that matter. There have been many-a hard-kickers kicks I've just gotten out of the way of and avoided the self-hurt of a block or the impact of a hard heel , toe or instep, often timing myself to attack as the leg was being withdrawn or rechambered. If the kicking leg was rechambered fast enough that I'd walk into it I was often close enough that there was no power in the kick. Definitely will not win sparring matches but a good method.

A palm-heel down on a low hard front kick is not the way to go either because hard shins hurt fleshy hands.

So why so much emphasis on stopping round and front kicks with arms?

I don't think you are writing about high kicks here. The Uechi X-block is real good against mid-section round-house kicks, and because it acts also as a shock absorber you are not exactly reacting with force against force. Uechi circle blocks are not much good for anything lower than center-of chest height.

For the life of me I just don't know why people dip-down with a sweeping block against a low front kick, Dana. To me that's presenting the face as if saying "hit me here." I assume you are writing about a lower frnt kick such as one to the groin?

If you are real good with your legs then you can parry those low front kicks with your feet. But you've got to be fast.

Actually various kata describes crane blocks. Use your kata. Just about anything and everything you’ll ever need for sparring/fighting is in your Uechi-ryu kata with the kumites adding what's missing. Unfortunately a lot must be translated [meaning slight modifications to fit the person and activity.]

[Rick Wilson]

“So I've got an issue of late with the idea that in Yakosuko Kumite and Dan Kumite I'm supposed to block a grown man's front kick with my arm.”

Dana, just don’t. Move and absorb. You can do the same arm movements as they provide good insurance but don’t challenge a kick.

I find many who challenge kicks with their arms only get away with it because the partners are not trying to cut them in half with their kicks. Instead they are kicking only until contact.

When blocking a high kick I like to use a dead arm absorption.

When doing the Uechi cross block, a block I care little for and only employed it while doing Dan Kumite, allow yourself to move to absorb the block.

If you what to learn how to do this then the best way is to do the Kumites without any blocks, simply get out of the way. Then put the hand work back in but combined with the movement.

[Van Canna]

“So I've got an issue of late with the idea that in Yakosuko Kumite and Dan Kumite I'm supposed to block a grown man's front kick with my arm.”

This comes from the delusion that we in Uechi are so “conditioned” that we can turn kicks into splinters.

That’s the “patty cake” syndrome, I talk about. Give me any of the super conditioned high Dan, and I will put him against Gilbert’s McIntire’s “wrecking ball” kicks that cut and shove like a freight train, and sit back and enjoy.

On the street, they will come up against football kicks thrown by a 240 lb “mall giant” and down they will go.

Dana, just don’t. Move and absorb. You can do the same arm movements as they provide good insurance but don’t challenge a kick.

I like this. Rick shows this “absorption” in his Reactive kumites..This is the method I now use and teach against kicks.

Walter Mattson also uses a similar concept in “handling” kicks.

Rick

find many who challenge kicks with their arms only get away with it because the partners are not trying to cut them in half with their kicks. Instead they are kicking only until contact.

So true. The "patty cake" game is alive and well in Uechi.

[Joe Graziano]

Interesting thread. Van's use of the term "handling" in referring to Walter's concepts should be particularly enlightening not only for females but also for males against strong opponents. I see Walter's small female students successfully "handling" kicks all the time because they do not try to outstrength their stronger partners.

Instead they move, absorb some (if necessary), redirect, control, and (are in position to) counter.

Yes, they could try to stand their ground and merely block with their arms (at their peril as Dana points out). At the other extreme, they could run away, but then they would not be in a position to counter.

Like most good teachers Walter advocates using your legs to defend from the waist down so as to keep your hands/arms up to protect your head.

[Norm Abrahamson]

Dana,

I think of the "arm blocks" of kicks as only part of the block. If possible it should be incorporated with movement so as not to take the brunt of the attack head on. Uechi is supposed to be half soft. Moving with the block allows you to absorb a technique. We can't all be brick walls.

I also think using the arms with the block is necessary because you may be in a situation where that is all you have. For example, in a crowd, against a wall or simply taken be surprise. Unfortunately I have blocked kicks with my ribs, and that is even less effective than arms.

Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson

[Dana Sheets]

I agree that movement is a key element to avoiding kicks. And I have successfully blocked kicks with my arms - but mostly those were kicks in pre-arranged kumites when folks weren't attacking with full intent or they were kicks in free sparring that were badly thrown.

When a big guy throws a really strong front kick toward my middle in free sparring, putting my forearm arm anywhere near it is the last thing in my mind. Mostly I just move outta the way.

There's a film called Xtreme Martial Arts that's premiering on the Discovery Channel this month:
>>> WATCH XTREME MARTIAL ARTS
>>> The show premieres on Sunday, Nov. 30, at 9 p.m. ET/PT.
>>>
>>> http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/xma/xma.html

In that show a trained martial artist throws a front kick that's measured. There's over one ton of power at the end of his kick. One ton. 2000 pounds.

Now granted, most folks don't kick as hard as they possibly can during friendly dojo free sparring or friendly dojo kumite. But we're trying to program our bodies, in part, to deal with the not so friendly person.

So I ask again - is it wise to encourage women - who most of the time have much less body mass and fewer muscles on their arms to protect them to be banging their arms against the legs of big men?

And Allen - I've met you - you're not a little guy. Try to imaging the power to weight ratio differences. Men have 2x the muscle. Most men outweigh me by 70-100 pounds. Even with "all the power going forward" and my block coming down at a perfect 90 degree angle - there's still alot of force to deal with.

So I'm bascially asking - is there a better way?

So far the answers are:
back up & attack the leg
move off the line and block/redirect
move off the line
if the kick is lower block it with your legs (obviously this is one I like)

Joe said (and others also said but Joe's is succint)

Interesting thread. Van's use of the term "handling" in referring to Walter's concepts should be particularly enlightening not only for females but also for males against strong opponents. I see Walter's small female students successfully "handling" kicks all the time because they do not try to outstrength their stronger partners.

Instead they move, absorb some (if necessary), redirect, control, and (are in position to) counter.

Yes, they could try to stand their ground and merely block with their arms (at their peril as Dana points out). At the other extreme, they could run away, but then they would not be in a position to counter.

Like most good teachers Walter advocates using your legs to defend from the waist down so as to keep your hands/arms up to protect your head.

I can move off the line and absorb some power and redirect the kick...if the kick isn't full power. Anytime I've asked a partner to throw a full power kick I discover that just isn't enough time to do any of these things unless they're way back at far sparring distance - if they're any closer all I've got time for is to lunge forward with my crane block up and stop the kick short. And that's about it.

I'm really open to suggestions - it's just that there seems to be a huge difference in what you can do against kicks that are below full power/speed and kicks at full power/speed.

[Deep Sea]

So I ask again - is it wise to encourage women - who most of the time have much less body mass and fewer muscles on their arms to protect them to be banging their arms against the legs of big men?

My simple answer is a resounding no.

And Allen - I've met you - you're not a little guy.

When I did my bestest in sparring/fighting/karate. I weighted 170# in the summers and 175# in the winter. But, BUT… even closely matched men in terms of profile, etc. can break forearms while sparring.

Try to imaging the power to weight ratio differences. Men have 2x the muscle. Most men outweigh me by 70-100 pounds.

I don’t have to imagine, Dana. I know. In those days I’ve sparred with and fought hard against larger opponents who like to lay on the hurt and it’s not fun. When that happens my strategy was to not be where the strike was if at all possible.

At the expense of mentioning the ‘T’ word, I’ve seen cream-of-the-crop TKD masters go at it, and they even often just get out of the way of a significant incoming. The "blocking" arm offers either a "light" parry as they jump back to create a void where they were once standing, or "gently" touches the leg at or near full extension using it as a sensor like an antenna to jmp right back in. If you can see those coming just get out of the way.

Even with "all the power going forward" and my block coming down at a perfect 90 degree angle - there's still a lot of force to deal with.

If you’ve got decent knuckles try coming down at an alternate angle with them just on the side of the shin at full extension. Of course, Dana, you’ve jumped, hopped, skipped, or slid back in the process so that the foot just touches. You may have to do a little makiwara work or a few knuckle pushups for a while to condition your fist but it’s worth it. When the leg is at it’s maximum extension on the power stroke, it has to relax for an instant before retracting. That’s when you can apply the best hurt against a strong kicker. You are not meeting force with force then because he has expended all his energy and your real hit avoidance was just moving out of the way while rather than a block you issues an effective strike.

Try it easily with less challenging opponents for a while until you find the sweet spot in the leg on a few legs. After you’ve found it, repeatability, even against those with whom you’ve never sparred before, is really good.

The key is your block is no longer a block.

BTW, Dana, from what I understand from your writing, is that you are getting it, meaning the questions you are asking are those asked by the ones on their way to finding answers for themselves that work for themselves. You are an intelligent girl, Dana. As a parting thought, try to avoid getting hit when good ones come in and develop your techniques around that approach.

[Van Canna]

Joe

Like most good teachers Walter advocates using your legs to defend from the waist down so as to keep your hands/arms up to protect your head.

It seems to be a best bet, but for a woman up against a brute of a man throwing football type kicks, even blocking with the legs present a serious problem, because the mass and momentum will “slice” through the blocking leg and just shove the lighter woman backwards.

To understand how this can happen, one only need to work with Gilbert McIntire sensei of Canada, and find himself/herself at the receiving end of one of his “extreme” power kicks.

Dana

Anytime I've asked a partner to throw a full power kick I discover that just isn't enough time to do any of these things unless they're way back at far sparring distance - if they're any closer all I've got time for is to lunge forward with my crane block up and stop the kick short. And that's about it.

Good point.

Street fights happen in close, so we are at a disadvantage to start with because we train at the longer distances of prearranged kumite and even free style matches. None of this resembles what we will face in the street. Just watch tapes of real fights at street corners and see.

Also under the “dump” we will not easily see oncoming blows/kicks/knee strikes….and a mean, beefy, young punk with intent, who has football experience, will hit you like a construction “wrecking ball” from short range and we will have difficulty using evasive and blocking moves.

The best way is as you said Dana, “crane” into him just as he moves..You move and jam and hope you can deal with him at close range with enough to “sting” then get away.

If you play the “blocking” game, you will be overcome by momentum. Re-read the thread on Uechi and fighting where Rabesa and I talk about the “craning in” against explosive kickers.

Not an easy “game”..glad you brought this up. The blocks we see in the dojo against “kicks” bear no resemblance to real encounters kicks.

Not many have seen the viciousness of kicking attacks in the street, especially by big guys.

As I wrote, one good way to “cure” the romantic kumite notions is to invite Gilbert McIntire sensei to camp or the dojo and try all the fancy stuff against his splintering kicks.

[Stryke]

Another option as well as moving is hook under the kick with the forearm and lift with the momentum , you can lift up and push them backwards , or grab the neck with the other hand and control from there .

[Robb in Sacramento]

Dana:

I have the same problem you do with these kumites, and I'm not exactly petite. I have struggled with the whole notion of a down block. My Kenpo friend, and insightful advisor, once explained to me that he never used a down block. That seemed odd to me, since I had clearly seen him using what appeared to me to be a down block. He pointed out to me, however, that it wasn't the arm that I thought it was that was making the initial contact. The block was actually coming from what seemed to be the passive arm.

A respected senior American Uechi instructor once asked a group of black belts what the down block was called in Japanese. We proudly responded, gedan barrai. He nodded, and then asked us what barrai meant. And while we all assumed it was another word for block, he noted it meant sweep. Umm. Sweep? Not a block?

Much like you Dana, I am also troubled by the notion that when we perform a down block in kata, it is always in a low stance. This wouldn't be so troubling but for the fact that in virtually every Shorin Ryu and Shotokan kata I practice, it is also almost always performed in a low stance (and before anyone jumps on me, I said almost always, I do the down block in Chinto off the reverse cat stance for instance). So, if the down block is almost always in a low stance in kata, why the heck do we do it in Kyu Kumite, Dan Kumite, the new Shohei Ryu kumite, and the Kadena kumite in an upright stance?

I do note, however, that in Master Uechi's kumite, the one Mr. Mattson references as kumite number one, there is simply no down block at all.

What I believe to be inherent in your observation is the notion that what we practice is what we are likely to use if we ever have to use it, and why the heck would anyone without massive well conditioned forearms ever think to use a down block against a righteous kick. You gotta point. I'm just wondering though, if what we are suppose to be doing in these kumites is really a block, down or otherwise, at all. Perhaps it is merely intended to sweep.

Anyway, after you figure this out, please work on sorting out the whole mess with dan kumite movement number three. Talk about a down block I would never consider using absent titanium implants in my forearm. But that is another thread.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

[Deep Sea]

Hello Rob. Sweeping works well very against a strong front or side-thrust kick when moving the leg to the inside but often mindless against that same kick when trying to move it to the outside.

When I find myself coming down with an arm that happens to be on the same side as the kick [left arm vs right kick or vice versa], rather than redirecting it [the sweep], I find that I can catch the heel with the hand of the arm circling down a-la-Seichin and the hand of the other arm simultaneously securing the foot from the top sweeping down with the same mirrored movement [the other Seichin block]. Not exactly Hawk-Chasing-Sparrow, more like Boeing facing Lockheed [duh]. Just for fun, there is a split-second where one can either lift the foot up, or lift up and pull the kicker forward. That same movement sequence in Seichin also uses the leg coming up into Crane as either the alternative or primary move, depending upon where the kick actually is.

Now, for the Crane of the leg to work well against a hard kicker one of the payoffs is to already be low, in a low Cat Stance, low L-Stance, low traditional horse stance, or low anything-stance facing the kicker at a healthy angle and more, preferably most, of the weight solidly on the rear leg. This is a good strategy for numerous reasons, but the one I’m thinking about now is that properly positioned and your lifted shin connects with the kicker’s foot the result is NOT meeting force with force, rather you are yielding. By that, and it only has to happen a few times in order to get in the groove, when the momentum goes forward against you at high speed you will go up with the supporting foot raising off the floor, back a few feet, and then down into the exact position you were when the contact occurred.

The shin conditioning required to pull this one off successfully without big whelts on the shins is minor for several reasons. Off the top of my head, two reasons are paramount: 1) Your shin has intercepted the incoming strike early, therefore its power and speed is less than maximum, depending upon where in the speed/power cure you made the connection, and 2) Properly set up, meaning sunk down, you are a tensioned spring ready to instantly uncoil. Your reaction will be to spring up but the force of the kick will be to [now] push you back. This is very effective against a strong hard kick and lesserly effective against a kick of less potency. Actually, the relative reaction against a less-potent kick is the same but the actual results less dramatic.

I’m glad Van backs me up with his statements of avoiding getting hit by hard kicks and that the street kicks are "different." One very important way in which they are different is that you are dealing with footgear on the street. Whether sneakers, dress shoes, work boots, or motorcycle boots, they all crumple knuckles, hurt fingers and hands if they get in the way.

Hello Stryke

push them backwards

What you really want to do for fun is to pull them forward. If the kick is a kick to the air then you can just stand there without even blocking, but if it is, say to the inners of your guts, then hopefully you are moving back and it ends up either in the air or almost in the air. It’s really best to let the kick hit you a little because that alone makes jamming the kick so much easier. But while moving back, give yourself, if time and opportunity presents itself, the option of stepping back further to pull the offending leg forward. However if you fold upon impact your strategy is dead. One of the more beautiful reasons for developing a strong Sanchin stomach.

In terms of gabbing behind the neck with the secondary hand a-la-Seichin, that works well – as well. However, I use the [almost] same dipping block against a hand technique rather than a kick, because unless I’ve misjudged the kick and my downward sweeping arm ends up inside the thigh, the distance for that secondary arm to hook and capture the neck is way off. At least it is for me.

Even with "all the power going forward" and my block coming down at a perfect 90 degree angle - there's still alot of force to deal with.

You DON'T want to deal with that force in terms of stopping the attack with force against force. You have to remember that when doing that against "Most men outweigh me by 70-100 pounds." You don’t have any power going forward. It’s like you are driving a Saab directly into a forward-moving shovel-dozer moving forward with his blade ready to eat you up -- like the one that shatters my surfboard to smithereens that I have pictured on my webpage as a temporary place-holder.

And I have successfully blocked kicks with my arms - but mostly those were kicks in pre-arranged kumites when folks weren't attacking with full intent or they were kicks in free sparring that were badly thrown.

Forget about the BLOCK. Everyone faces each other straight-on in kumites. That's pure unmitigated bullsh!t and bad training as far as I'm concerned!!! One thing GEM use to nail me on often at the Hut, and I would always respond to him that I was practicing my reflex actions for what I do when up against a real kick. In other words, with any and all of the round kicks I would circle close in to my partner at at least a 45 degree to a 90 degree angle with my front side facing the kick and one shoulder close to the front of my partner’s body. This effectively nullified the power of the kick PLUS my arm close in to my partner’s body allowed me to strike him in places that he does not expect. Especially that Uechi Cross block with the arm closest to MY target being the underneath arm of the "block" can automatically position that elbow to jam right into the throat at often a perfect angle. Usually that is a wide open shot, especially if you are fast enough getting in and doing so unexpectedly. If I remain low when I move in my elbow, when it triggers, often has a choice of several targets. Even to hit bony ribs is a plus for the elbow here.

There are tons of stuff one can do, Dana, if one gets his mind OFF the block and ON setting himself up to strike, leveraging his own movements off whatever the other person does. Remember again, Dana, that I was lightweight when I developed those things to use against persons larger, faster, and stronger than myself. I was a very aggressive fighter in those days and paid the price many times over to learn the things of which I write about. I only blossomed-out in the heft department which you alluded to when I sat down to write my first Uechi-ryu book, published in 1995, exhausting all my energies as mental energies for a few years with nothing left for physical workouts. I couldn't do everything and rigorous workouts took a back seat to, and were replaced by rigorous writeouts.

[Robb in Sacramento]

Allen:

Thanks for your feedback. And, while I will leave it to Ms. Sheets to straighten me out on this, it seems to me her original post is not directed at what is the best way to block a kick, but rather why is she practicing a block that she does not believe will work for her in prearrange kumite. It raises the very pragmatic question of "if I am not going to use it, why would I practice it." Sort of the question many of us face with why we spent all that time in high school learning algebra.

Many responses have simply suggested changing the move. As a dojo this is fine. I don't think I have ever visited two schools that do the kumites the same way. But with regard to her daily practice in her dojo, her decision to alter a movement changes a fundametal precept of prearranged sets -- it is no longer prearranged.

While Dana's focus is on one particular movement, down blocking a kick, there are no doubt others who would express similar sentiment concerning other aspects of the kumites. So, do we each change the set to fit us? Perhaps. Or, do we explore the nature of the movement being taught, to see if we can find something in it for us.

I know there are many people who have conditioned their forearms to allow themselves the ability to do a one arm down block against an incoming kick. These folks can break all manner of material with their block. They are a testament to conditioning and dedicated training. But, can we all do this? Whenever I compare my forearm to the shins of some of the people I train with, it is quite clear to me that in a match between their shin and my forearm, their shin wins.

So, and again I believe back to the fundamental question Dana has posed, why would I want to train myself to match my forearm against another's shin? And if I don't, how can I perform the prearranged sets?

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

[Van Canna]

Hi Robb,

Intelligent post.

Dana

I also think folks learn a really bad habit of kicking and leaving their leg out there so their partner can "block" it. Now everyone is learning bad habits - the kicker leaves their leg out and the "blocker" thinks they've got the timing down. (Not talking about white belts doing this - I'm talking about watching black belts doing Dan Kumite doing this)

I'm baffled.

Robb

So, and again I believe back to the fundamental question Dana has posed, why would I want to train myself to match my forearm against another's shin? And if I don't, how can I perform the prearranged sets?

Could this be the reason why Kanbun might have thought kumites to be useless, thus the reason why he never developed any for preparing his students to fight?

[Stryke]

Just want to clarify when I talm blocking/scooping the kick I`m deffinately not recommending the old gedan Barai or down block , it`s one of the worst things Ive seen taught , I use it as a takedown , but thats another thread ....

Allan going backwards would work great too , I think the neck grab things probably easier cause I`m jamming forward , and I`m one of these lucky long limbed folks , am goignt o work on drawing them forward though thanks , im deffintaely going to try working the grab off the punch too , thanks for the Ideas