Abusing Uechi-ryu
Moderator: Available
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Rick Wilson
Henry, Van, Joe and Bill:
Yes, lots of great discussion and comments!
Certainly disagreement, or rather differences, in approach. But just as clearly each person’s approach is based on a reason.
Can the discussion be rough, well yeah this is martial arts.
Henry: I am pretty sure I will be at camp next year and would love to get together. I also practice Qigong by the way. At the end of a good discussion I often find out the parties agreed more than they disagreed. Your web site looks good.
Finger tip strikes. I do not keep my fingers perfectly straight. One of my favourite targets is actually into the upper chest. You need a willing partner to see the appropriate effects.
A very nice finger strike is to use the Uechi Kumite hand position. I do not squeeze my fingers together but rather let them find a natural and strong position slightly separated.
This strike does require a strong position where the hand is not positioned by the wrist bending backwards but rather crooked downward (good Uechi Kumtie). This projects the bent fingers in a forward direction.
The strike is simply done by driving the hand forward and striking with all the fingers. Very nice and the position of the fingers allows them to absorb as they strike. This is a very quick unchambered strike for Uechika. Use of Fa-jing improves the impact.
This is much easier on the fingers than the extended strike.
Many good targets for this one.
Yes, lots of great discussion and comments!
Certainly disagreement, or rather differences, in approach. But just as clearly each person’s approach is based on a reason.
Can the discussion be rough, well yeah this is martial arts.
Henry: I am pretty sure I will be at camp next year and would love to get together. I also practice Qigong by the way. At the end of a good discussion I often find out the parties agreed more than they disagreed. Your web site looks good.
Finger tip strikes. I do not keep my fingers perfectly straight. One of my favourite targets is actually into the upper chest. You need a willing partner to see the appropriate effects.
A very nice finger strike is to use the Uechi Kumite hand position. I do not squeeze my fingers together but rather let them find a natural and strong position slightly separated.
This strike does require a strong position where the hand is not positioned by the wrist bending backwards but rather crooked downward (good Uechi Kumtie). This projects the bent fingers in a forward direction.
The strike is simply done by driving the hand forward and striking with all the fingers. Very nice and the position of the fingers allows them to absorb as they strike. This is a very quick unchambered strike for Uechika. Use of Fa-jing improves the impact.
This is much easier on the fingers than the extended strike.
Many good targets for this one.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Henry et al
You can't possibly have seen bruising discussions like the ones between Van and I on breathing. We both love to debate for sport, and will take discussions to extreme levels.
In the end though when we sit and chat, we find our true positions aren't far apart. We both are eclectics. I can do everything Van preaches in power breathing (have been doing it in the weight room and in my Japanese karate for years) and yet find room to investigate myriad other styles of breathing.
I often say the problem isn't mastering a breathing method, but rather being a master of your breathing. Natural is the key here. Yes, try many ways of breathing, and you will find a use for each in various circumstances. Yes, learn how to do something correctly before you bash it, and quit the strawman tactics. Yes, drill different types of breathing. But we get into trouble (I think) when we become slaves to a method irrespective of what the situation may dictate. We do only because others told us to, rather than learning, mastering, and then doing as our bodies tell us to do. I don't get hung up about any breathing method when watching a student testing; my eyes only roll when I see a person has one way of doing things, and is either breath holding or power breathing even when taking a s***. We become caricatures of ourselves. No wonder there is so much bashing going on!
Quick comment about nukites... To me, sanchin is a study of motion. The fact that we are using nukites in it means nothing other than the fact that we are practicing to hit with "something." A nukite demands we pay attention to our hands and fingers. If you can master a nukite, anything else works. In sanchin (and in other kata for that matter), the nukite is a metaphor.
I have great applications for nukites in the suprasternal notch and the arm pits. And as Takamiyagi showed me, many scooping blocks are nothing more than modified nukites that use the cupping palm rather than the finger tips as crictical surface. No need to get hung up about separating ribs with your spears-o-doom TM.
Rick and Henry
I'd love to join your breathing discussions at camp. I'm still taking information in on all this.
- Bill
You can't possibly have seen bruising discussions like the ones between Van and I on breathing. We both love to debate for sport, and will take discussions to extreme levels.
In the end though when we sit and chat, we find our true positions aren't far apart. We both are eclectics. I can do everything Van preaches in power breathing (have been doing it in the weight room and in my Japanese karate for years) and yet find room to investigate myriad other styles of breathing.I often say the problem isn't mastering a breathing method, but rather being a master of your breathing. Natural is the key here. Yes, try many ways of breathing, and you will find a use for each in various circumstances. Yes, learn how to do something correctly before you bash it, and quit the strawman tactics. Yes, drill different types of breathing. But we get into trouble (I think) when we become slaves to a method irrespective of what the situation may dictate. We do only because others told us to, rather than learning, mastering, and then doing as our bodies tell us to do. I don't get hung up about any breathing method when watching a student testing; my eyes only roll when I see a person has one way of doing things, and is either breath holding or power breathing even when taking a s***. We become caricatures of ourselves. No wonder there is so much bashing going on!
Quick comment about nukites... To me, sanchin is a study of motion. The fact that we are using nukites in it means nothing other than the fact that we are practicing to hit with "something." A nukite demands we pay attention to our hands and fingers. If you can master a nukite, anything else works. In sanchin (and in other kata for that matter), the nukite is a metaphor.
I have great applications for nukites in the suprasternal notch and the arm pits. And as Takamiyagi showed me, many scooping blocks are nothing more than modified nukites that use the cupping palm rather than the finger tips as crictical surface. No need to get hung up about separating ribs with your spears-o-doom TM.
Rick and Henry
I'd love to join your breathing discussions at camp. I'm still taking information in on all this.
- Bill
Hi Bill,
These forums are fun, aren’t they? Don’t you wish more people would get in on the fun?
Straw man tactics…I like that…I also see this:
If you think about it, our ability to think about new situations is dependent upon relating them to previous experience. All reasoning short of simply recalling something exactly the same is built upon analogy. If a straw man tactic is poor debating, then simply yelling “false analogy” towards anything with an undesirable conclusion would be worse.
Also, there is great question whether our brain would allow us to use these techniques when reverting to primal instinct.
In debriefing many Uechi people involved in fights, not one has told me that he used a nukite. It was all about punches, kicks, elbows, and knees.
But fantasies are good for a man..you know..Like sexual fantasies that never get lived down?
These forums are fun, aren’t they? Don’t you wish more people would get in on the fun?
Straw man tactics…I like that…I also see this:
If you think about it, our ability to think about new situations is dependent upon relating them to previous experience. All reasoning short of simply recalling something exactly the same is built upon analogy. If a straw man tactic is poor debating, then simply yelling “false analogy” towards anything with an undesirable conclusion would be worse.
Ha..I agree, but it is a good way for them to become educated about the “dump” something they have difficulty grasping. “ Who, me, the dump? No way”my eyes only roll when I see a person has one way of doing things, and is either breath holding or power breathing even when taking a s***.
Excellent comment.Quick comment about nukites... To me, sanchin is a study of motion. The fact that we are using nukites in it means nothing other than the fact that we are practicing to hit with "something." A nukite demands we pay attention to our hands and fingers. If you can master a nukite, anything else works. In sanchin (and in other kata for that matter), the nukite is a metaphor.
Agreed.Bob Campbell has this interesting method of using the Kakushiken and the nukite. He draws a parallel between human targets and some fruits , to show us the errors of our fantasies about this “weaponry”I have great applications for nukite in the suprasternal notch and the arm pits. And as Takamiyagi showed me, many scooping blocks are nothing more than modified nukites that use the cupping palm rather than the fingertips as critical surface. No need to get hung up about separating ribs with your spears-o-doom TM .
Also, there is great question whether our brain would allow us to use these techniques when reverting to primal instinct.
In debriefing many Uechi people involved in fights, not one has told me that he used a nukite. It was all about punches, kicks, elbows, and knees.
But fantasies are good for a man..you know..Like sexual fantasies that never get lived down?
Van
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Rick Wilson
“In debriefing many Uechi people involved in fights, not one has told me that he used a nukite. It was all about punches, kicks, elbows, and knees.”
This comment doesn’t surprise me at all.
This comment made me think back to your quoting of Tomoyose Sensei when you asked him why Uechika do not use the weapons of Uechi and he responded that they did not practice them.
This simple statement had a very profound effect on me and the direction of my training.
I wonder if these same Uechika trained actually using nukite etc.? I would doubt it and therefore Tomoyose Sensei’s comment pretty much covers why there was no chance for it to happen even if it might have.
I do not believe that if you just do Kata performing the weapons of Uechi but the majority of your training is based on using a seiken (regular fist), that you will ever use a nukite in a fight.
We will do what we train. (Gee Van; I don’t think you or others have ever mentioned this before. )
I am trying very hard to practice the weapons of Uechi now, but the nukite is not my favourite unless I am coming up under the throat or armpit. If I use a spear hand strike it is more like a high but diving Sanchin into the upper chest and shoulder areas.
Having said this, the tiger paw and shoken are now my most common hand position.
The forearm shear of the Wauke is a favourite.
I am just beginning to experiment with this new Kumite finger strike.
Knees, elbows and, yes, head butts are super tools, and the RIGHT TOOLS at the right times. This is another important point, because these are Uechi tools and they are very effective in tight and close where the &*^& hits the fan.
I, of course, can not say what would come out on the street at this point; however, I do know what I am starting to use in our dojo stress situations. Admittedly, a very different level.
This comment doesn’t surprise me at all.
This comment made me think back to your quoting of Tomoyose Sensei when you asked him why Uechika do not use the weapons of Uechi and he responded that they did not practice them.
This simple statement had a very profound effect on me and the direction of my training.
I wonder if these same Uechika trained actually using nukite etc.? I would doubt it and therefore Tomoyose Sensei’s comment pretty much covers why there was no chance for it to happen even if it might have.
I do not believe that if you just do Kata performing the weapons of Uechi but the majority of your training is based on using a seiken (regular fist), that you will ever use a nukite in a fight.
We will do what we train. (Gee Van; I don’t think you or others have ever mentioned this before.
)I am trying very hard to practice the weapons of Uechi now, but the nukite is not my favourite unless I am coming up under the throat or armpit. If I use a spear hand strike it is more like a high but diving Sanchin into the upper chest and shoulder areas.
Having said this, the tiger paw and shoken are now my most common hand position.
The forearm shear of the Wauke is a favourite.
I am just beginning to experiment with this new Kumite finger strike.
Knees, elbows and, yes, head butts are super tools, and the RIGHT TOOLS at the right times. This is another important point, because these are Uechi tools and they are very effective in tight and close where the &*^& hits the fan.
I, of course, can not say what would come out on the street at this point; however, I do know what I am starting to use in our dojo stress situations. Admittedly, a very different level.
Hello, Bill, Van, Joe, Rick ---
Thank you for the birthday wish.
I promise that I'll get off the subject after just a little more ranting.
Uechi-Ryu is much more of a "traditional" Kung Fu style than most folks might think. And being basically a Kung Fu style, the training on Chi and Gin should be part of the package. Yes, one can ignor them and still can kill tigers with a knuckle strike executed with perfect "body mechanic" but, one can also ignor many important things in life and can still have a great life---
I do my Sanchin with emphasis on developing Gin in my arms/legs and Chi in my Dantien. I inhale slowly and when I exhale, I t'ssh and push downward towards my Dantien while I do the hand strike. The t'sshing sound plays a part in helping me to that end.
I know I am taking a big risk here in mentioning the C-word but if anyone thinks that I am full of #%^* unless I have complete proves and laboratory analysis and Consumers Report testing and White House certification, that's fine. I don't have them and I can't prove that it does any good. I just do it and feel great doing it. That's enough proof for me!!!
Staying healthy is a very important aspect of practicing Kung Fu in addition to fighting. Hence most Kung Fu styles have some form of Chi Kung breathing exercise in addition to the development of Gin. We have our Sanchin which combines the beauty of both. I might be way off but that's how I practice.
By the way, our Uechi style is not the only style that makes a sound when exhale. Quite a few of the Kung Fu biggies do too. They might not exactly t'ssh the way we do it but there is a sound neverthless.
Also, as to those who hold their breath till they almost pass out, I like to believe that as more of an aberration than the norm. How does holding ones breath till his face turns blue has to do with our basic concept of half hard - half soft? Lumping those folks with all the "traditionalist " and those who "t'ssh" is just , well, forget it---
Henry
See you all at the camp.
Thank you for the birthday wish.
I promise that I'll get off the subject after just a little more ranting.
Uechi-Ryu is much more of a "traditional" Kung Fu style than most folks might think. And being basically a Kung Fu style, the training on Chi and Gin should be part of the package. Yes, one can ignor them and still can kill tigers with a knuckle strike executed with perfect "body mechanic" but, one can also ignor many important things in life and can still have a great life---
I do my Sanchin with emphasis on developing Gin in my arms/legs and Chi in my Dantien. I inhale slowly and when I exhale, I t'ssh and push downward towards my Dantien while I do the hand strike. The t'sshing sound plays a part in helping me to that end.
I know I am taking a big risk here in mentioning the C-word but if anyone thinks that I am full of #%^* unless I have complete proves and laboratory analysis and Consumers Report testing and White House certification, that's fine. I don't have them and I can't prove that it does any good. I just do it and feel great doing it. That's enough proof for me!!!
Staying healthy is a very important aspect of practicing Kung Fu in addition to fighting. Hence most Kung Fu styles have some form of Chi Kung breathing exercise in addition to the development of Gin. We have our Sanchin which combines the beauty of both. I might be way off but that's how I practice.
By the way, our Uechi style is not the only style that makes a sound when exhale. Quite a few of the Kung Fu biggies do too. They might not exactly t'ssh the way we do it but there is a sound neverthless.
Also, as to those who hold their breath till they almost pass out, I like to believe that as more of an aberration than the norm. How does holding ones breath till his face turns blue has to do with our basic concept of half hard - half soft? Lumping those folks with all the "traditionalist " and those who "t'ssh" is just , well, forget it---
Henry
See you all at the camp.
At the risk of more laughters from some folks, please allow me to continue just a bit more---I have great applications for nukites in the suprasternal notch and the arm pits.
Whether we believe it or not, Kung Fu folks do attack pressure points. Under the arm pit is a great one to attack. That one is supposed to cause death. I have no proof and never killed anyone by doing that but, heck, bear with me.
I think that the spear hand strikes in our katas are aiming for the pressure points at the lower chest or the rib cage, where there are several pressure points.
I for one will definitely not use the spear hand technique in a fight because I don't have the time or interest in toughening my spear hands the way the ancients did. Those guys jab their hands in burning rocks several hours a day. They didn't have a life back then. Furthermore, my opponent will most likely not be a 19th century half starving bear chested roadside robber who is no more than a skinny pack of bones and ribs.
Like Van said, the spear hand technique nowadays would be aimed at the throat. And, you don't need any heavy duty body mechanic to accomplish the result either.
No more ranting from me on this post. Thank you for bearing with me.
Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com
Hi Henry,
With all due respect to you, your post is another good example of people not understanding the argument on breathing or any other subject we have discussed on these pages for years.
You wrote
This “exhale” is the point of contention, as to the timing and quality of the exhale and not the sound of the exhale. Most people that t’ssh..have no conception of what they are doing, other than trying to demonstrate their senseis that they are, in fact, breathing.
The argument has always been: when to exhale..Should it be with the thrust or after the thrust as it is taught in Uechi? The sound of the exhale is incidental. You will find that I and many other proponents of breathing out with the strike, and not after the strike, do perform a hissing or tsst sound.
And as I have explained ad nauseum over the years, breathing out with the thrust, is but one method of breathing, and not the only one. People can breathe anyway they want and feel comfortable.
I do the “breathing in between movements” when performing the kata at a certain level of exertion.
But prefer to breathe out with the strike, when building up internal pressure to launch powerful strikes in the performance of a powerful kata. The mechanics are different. And when I do explosive breathing, the sound of it is an amplified tsst sound.
I don’t know if I am making myself clear on this, Henry.
Where we have made fun of the tsst, in the past, has been in relation to students held hostage to the concept that they are not allowed to breathe with motion [with the thrust] but they were required to make a “sound” the tssh..[After the thrust] To show the sensei they were breathing…and in doing so, they were not breathing freely and naturally, so they would become oxygen depleted on the floor and showed it.
In some people, the tsst requirements wreak havoc with their natural breathing mechanism, and cut their oxygen.
I hope I am making myself clear on this.
Reposting this, might help understand the argument about breathing methods
Case closed..Enjoy the holidays.
With all due respect to you, your post is another good example of people not understanding the argument on breathing or any other subject we have discussed on these pages for years.
You wrote
The key word, as you wrote, is “Exhale”By the way, our Uechi style is not the only style that makes a sound when exhale. Quite a few of the Kung Fu biggies do too. They might not exactly tsst the way we do it but there is a sound nevertheless.
This “exhale” is the point of contention, as to the timing and quality of the exhale and not the sound of the exhale. Most people that t’ssh..have no conception of what they are doing, other than trying to demonstrate their senseis that they are, in fact, breathing.
The argument has always been: when to exhale..Should it be with the thrust or after the thrust as it is taught in Uechi? The sound of the exhale is incidental. You will find that I and many other proponents of breathing out with the strike, and not after the strike, do perform a hissing or tsst sound.
And as I have explained ad nauseum over the years, breathing out with the thrust, is but one method of breathing, and not the only one. People can breathe anyway they want and feel comfortable.
I do the “breathing in between movements” when performing the kata at a certain level of exertion.
But prefer to breathe out with the strike, when building up internal pressure to launch powerful strikes in the performance of a powerful kata. The mechanics are different. And when I do explosive breathing, the sound of it is an amplified tsst sound.
I don’t know if I am making myself clear on this, Henry.
Where we have made fun of the tsst, in the past, has been in relation to students held hostage to the concept that they are not allowed to breathe with motion [with the thrust] but they were required to make a “sound” the tssh..[After the thrust] To show the sensei they were breathing…and in doing so, they were not breathing freely and naturally, so they would become oxygen depleted on the floor and showed it.
In some people, the tsst requirements wreak havoc with their natural breathing mechanism, and cut their oxygen.
I hope I am making myself clear on this.
Again Henry, it is a case of not understanding the argument, And I partially blame myself for it, sorry.Lumping those folks with all the "traditionalist " and those who "tsst" is just , well, forget it---
Reposting this, might help understand the argument about breathing methods
Internal Breathing
Internal breathing is like a tea kettle that is building up steam. As the pressure in the kettle increases, there will be a slow release of pressure though a small hole in the spout.
There will always be near constant pressure within.
The lungs take on a similar function with internal breathing methods. There is a release of small bursts of air when delivering each strike.
At the same time there will be air pressure maintained within the lungs, much like the tea kettle.
The diaphragm and muscles in the body must tense properly to get the most benefit from internal breathing.
The best way to experience this is to exhale and form the mouth as to create a hiss.[ here is the Tsst ]
There should be muscle tension low in the diaphragm and abdomen. This obtains maximum compression of the oxygen in the lungs and controls the amount of air that leaves the body.
The diaphragm and muscles in the body must tense properly to get the most benefit from internal breathing.
There are other specialized internal breathing techniques that can produce phenomenal results.
World breaking champion Shawn Jewell is an advocate of breathing to develop internal energy. He emphasizes the importance of the diaphragm in the progression of motion that develops this awesome force.
Unlike most other breathing methods, this type of breathing requires precise timing within a sequence of events. As the nervous system fires muscles independently, these muscles contract in sequence to produce a wave of motion through the body.
The diaphragm must contract at the proper instant to continue this flow of motion. If there is a break in the sequence, a loss of energy will result.
These precision breathing methods are useful in many aspects of martial arts training, including grappling and joint manipulation techniques.
Proper breathing can improve balance and mobility as well.
Inhaling while in motion creates buoyancy for greater foot speed, while exhaling when settling your body weight into a strike aids in better force and fusion upon impact to a target.
Fusion is the moment when the joints of the body lock in position as to allow the entire weight of the body to be behind the strike.[your Kime` point]
Case closed..Enjoy the holidays.
Van
Abusing Uechi-ryu
I really find the responses to the initial comments very interesting and informative. But it seems the focus of many is on the physical application of the style, namely combat techniques. It's not that I disagree with what's stated, it's that, in my opinion, the goal of Uechi is NOT self defense. The kata is a form of Zen and has to do with the opening of the proverbial " Third Eye." This of course is almost impossible to communicate via language because it is a life experience. In addition, I believe it's stated in the Tao Te Ching, that "those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know." I'd would find it most interesting to read how Uechi-ryu, is related to other aspects of living beside preparing to fight. I've heard it said the three conflicts in Sanchin are related to overcoming aspects of oneself that keep one from spiritual awareness. If this just sounds like a bunch of bull, sorry for wasting your time....But you may be mistaking the pointing finger for the moon
David Z.
With all due respect to you, your post is another good example of people not understanding the argument
And as I have explained ad nauseum over the years, breathing out with the thrust, is but one method of breathing, and not the only one. People can breathe anyway they want and feel comfortable.
Van,I don’t know if I am making myself clear on this, Henry.
I feel bad that I might have caused some issue here. I can't let this go without a couple of more words.
It sounds as though there is a disagreement but I think that we are saying the same thing. You are just twenty times more articulate than I in expressing it
Where we have made fun of the tsst, in the past, has been in relation to students held hostage to the concept that they are not allowed to breathe with motion [with the thrust] but they were required to make a “sound” the tssh..[After the thrust] To show the sensei they were breathing…
I certainly don't agree with the reason behind it. It is just silly. However, I do some t'ssh with the thrusts, and some after. Actually I don't really think about whether I t'ssh before or after or holding or not holding my breaths during my workouts. As someone said many times, may be differently, that when he throws that strike in a fight the last thing in the world he would think of is whether he is holding his breath or not.
There is no disagreements at all.
Respectfully,
Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com
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Rick Wilson
DZ1050:
“It's not that I disagree with what's stated, it's that, in my opinion, the goal of Uechi is NOT self defense.”
Well hard to say that an opinion is incorrect.
I would agree that Sanchin, despite the martial applications and usages, is clearly (to me) a Qigong form.
However, Uechi also consists of Seisan and Sanseirui and Kotakitia.
While clearly the meditative elements can flow from one to the other and back again in a spiral circle of never ending interrelation, these two forms are clearly fighting forms.
Uechi Ryu was brought back by a young man who studied a martial art. Depending on what history you believe in, he studied it for a variety of purposes but I happen to subscribe to Bob Campbell’s research and believe it was for martial purposes.
Most histories of Chinese arts are martial first and foremost. Only later do the further benefits come to play.
Now, clearly the further benefits of the martial arts are there. This is (again my opinion) without a doubt.
Many of the histories also reflect this fact, but as a later effect. While much is made about Bagua being based on the I Ching the most honest version admit the relationship came after the fighting.
And here lies the balance. There must be the martial or, to paraphrase David Lowry, to be a martial way there must be the right amount of violence.
Personally this fits my own view because I do not believe you can move along the warrior’s path without acknowledging and accepting the predator side of being human.
But here is the kicker: the right amount of violence.
To return to David Lowry: “they mentioned kindness, etiquette and perseverance, all hallmarks of the budo and probably goals in their lives. Unfortunately, they’ll never reach those goals, at least not the way they were practicing their art. They had no sense of nangyo, the impetus of hardship, which is sometimes translated as violence.”
Without the martial this way will not lead to the benefits sought. The “purpose” of a martial art seen beyond self protection will NOT be achieved without the addressing of the deeper levels of the martial side.
While you poll says you can adequately address self defence in one or two years, I believe you have missed the point. It is delving deeper into the body mechanics (and yes for me the flow of Qi), this is where the true learning begins to take place. But you can only know you are on the right road when you place them under the test of fire. This is the violence and the hard way.
The understanding of the lines of force generated by the proper alignment of your body and the flow of energy and the giving over to the form itself can only be kept true by the hard way. Anything else can lead to self delusion and the “belief” you are achieving something only to find you missed it.
“But you may be mistaking the pointing finger for the moon”
Or perhaps some fail to understand they must follow the finger to find the moon?
A MARTIAL art gains its benefits by understanding and delving deeper into the art of violence. Look at the study of how to strike harder. A few months in any good boxing gym will give you all the power you need to drop most people who might take you on. But there is so much more. The deeper levels of generating power and the variety of ways to do so require so much more. The internal work that must be done to go farther on this line alone, requires more understanding of self that most are willing to face. But in the end if you cannot strike hard you find you were on a fool's path. This is the martial test check. This is the way we make sure we do not stray from the path.
This is never more evident than to watch a Taiji practitioner who has learn the new only for “health” Taiji (from a non martial artist) and then watch a true martial artist perform Taiji like Joseph Chen. The difference in body mechanics, alignment and energy flow is astounding for those who can see. If you have no true understanding of it then it will all look the same.
So yes there is a lot of focus on the physical. Yes certainly. That is the path and the way to achieve the higher levels and if that is trained in a false manner then the chance of achieving anything else is lost.
So we constantly challenge the training.
Yes, there is more. And yes it is harder to put this into words. I could never speak clearly of my experiences in a sweat lodge or the even deeper experience of going into the woods, building a hut and remaining there for almost four days without water, food or speaking to anyone but the helpers. These are indeed things that can not be voiced and, as you implied, perhaps should not be. Those are often personal journeys, and can only be shared at the right time with the right people.
But the process can be. Go to Jackie’s forum and read Max’s reflections. Difficult for Max to voice what he has experienced, but he is. And it is a valiant (and enlightening) effort.
As I have said, I have tried to start threads on this. As Henry has said, and you have said, these are harder to write of and harder to express and maybe should not be voiced.
But then why wonder that the “easier” part is being focused on for discussion.
Perhaps this part of our martial way and this focus on the physical was best related by Joe quoting his teacher: "I cannot teach you karate. But I can teach you how to practice."
Perhaps that end cannot be taught but we can be taught to practice, to follow the martial way, as long as that way stays honest.
So, DZ1050, I can only close with the recommendation to start threads and discussions on the areas you feel should receive more focus. Yes, it is a hard topic but no pain no gain.
Sorry if this rambled or failed to make sense. It was the best I could do in expressing what I meant.
“It's not that I disagree with what's stated, it's that, in my opinion, the goal of Uechi is NOT self defense.”
Well hard to say that an opinion is incorrect.
I would agree that Sanchin, despite the martial applications and usages, is clearly (to me) a Qigong form.
However, Uechi also consists of Seisan and Sanseirui and Kotakitia.
While clearly the meditative elements can flow from one to the other and back again in a spiral circle of never ending interrelation, these two forms are clearly fighting forms.
Uechi Ryu was brought back by a young man who studied a martial art. Depending on what history you believe in, he studied it for a variety of purposes but I happen to subscribe to Bob Campbell’s research and believe it was for martial purposes.
Most histories of Chinese arts are martial first and foremost. Only later do the further benefits come to play.
Now, clearly the further benefits of the martial arts are there. This is (again my opinion) without a doubt.
Many of the histories also reflect this fact, but as a later effect. While much is made about Bagua being based on the I Ching the most honest version admit the relationship came after the fighting.
And here lies the balance. There must be the martial or, to paraphrase David Lowry, to be a martial way there must be the right amount of violence.
Personally this fits my own view because I do not believe you can move along the warrior’s path without acknowledging and accepting the predator side of being human.
But here is the kicker: the right amount of violence.
To return to David Lowry: “they mentioned kindness, etiquette and perseverance, all hallmarks of the budo and probably goals in their lives. Unfortunately, they’ll never reach those goals, at least not the way they were practicing their art. They had no sense of nangyo, the impetus of hardship, which is sometimes translated as violence.”
Without the martial this way will not lead to the benefits sought. The “purpose” of a martial art seen beyond self protection will NOT be achieved without the addressing of the deeper levels of the martial side.
While you poll says you can adequately address self defence in one or two years, I believe you have missed the point. It is delving deeper into the body mechanics (and yes for me the flow of Qi), this is where the true learning begins to take place. But you can only know you are on the right road when you place them under the test of fire. This is the violence and the hard way.
The understanding of the lines of force generated by the proper alignment of your body and the flow of energy and the giving over to the form itself can only be kept true by the hard way. Anything else can lead to self delusion and the “belief” you are achieving something only to find you missed it.
“But you may be mistaking the pointing finger for the moon”
Or perhaps some fail to understand they must follow the finger to find the moon?
A MARTIAL art gains its benefits by understanding and delving deeper into the art of violence. Look at the study of how to strike harder. A few months in any good boxing gym will give you all the power you need to drop most people who might take you on. But there is so much more. The deeper levels of generating power and the variety of ways to do so require so much more. The internal work that must be done to go farther on this line alone, requires more understanding of self that most are willing to face. But in the end if you cannot strike hard you find you were on a fool's path. This is the martial test check. This is the way we make sure we do not stray from the path.
This is never more evident than to watch a Taiji practitioner who has learn the new only for “health” Taiji (from a non martial artist) and then watch a true martial artist perform Taiji like Joseph Chen. The difference in body mechanics, alignment and energy flow is astounding for those who can see. If you have no true understanding of it then it will all look the same.
So yes there is a lot of focus on the physical. Yes certainly. That is the path and the way to achieve the higher levels and if that is trained in a false manner then the chance of achieving anything else is lost.
So we constantly challenge the training.
Yes, there is more. And yes it is harder to put this into words. I could never speak clearly of my experiences in a sweat lodge or the even deeper experience of going into the woods, building a hut and remaining there for almost four days without water, food or speaking to anyone but the helpers. These are indeed things that can not be voiced and, as you implied, perhaps should not be. Those are often personal journeys, and can only be shared at the right time with the right people.
But the process can be. Go to Jackie’s forum and read Max’s reflections. Difficult for Max to voice what he has experienced, but he is. And it is a valiant (and enlightening) effort.
As I have said, I have tried to start threads on this. As Henry has said, and you have said, these are harder to write of and harder to express and maybe should not be voiced.
But then why wonder that the “easier” part is being focused on for discussion.
Perhaps this part of our martial way and this focus on the physical was best related by Joe quoting his teacher: "I cannot teach you karate. But I can teach you how to practice."
Perhaps that end cannot be taught but we can be taught to practice, to follow the martial way, as long as that way stays honest.
So, DZ1050, I can only close with the recommendation to start threads and discussions on the areas you feel should receive more focus. Yes, it is a hard topic but no pain no gain.
Sorry if this rambled or failed to make sense. It was the best I could do in expressing what I meant.
Hi Henry,
Another point you brought up that might be worth exploring.
So do they know this? And if they do and are not teaching it, why is that?
The enemy of yore is not the enemy of modern day. Contemporary enemies are bigger, stronger, and pack heavy clothing.
Even if, as you and Tomoyose sensei said, we wasted a lifetime training our spear hand etc., there is still lots of doubt in my mind, according to research by Siddle, that we would be able to use such weapons under stress, and to hit the so called “pressure points”.
While punches to the face should be discouraged by a good sensei, because of the likely possibility of ending up with a broken hand or blood poisoning, when it comes to the rib cage, a good chest caving punch is king, because it is all gross motor and will work wonders, along with knees and elbows, especially the type used by Muay Thai fighters, that are much more superior to what we think we have in Uechi.
Bob Campbell and Art Rabesa are master instructors in this.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Yes, by all means, and this is the reason why these forums are so valuable.It sounds as though there is a disagreement but I think that we are saying the same thing.
Another point you brought up that might be worth exploring.
That might be, but having worked with American and Okinawan masters, none have pointed this out to me.I think that the spear hand strikes in our katas are aiming for the pressure points at the lower chest or the rib cage, where there are several pressure points.
So do they know this? And if they do and are not teaching it, why is that?
Here you have said something extremely to the point, pardon the pun.Furthermore, my opponent will most likely not be a 19th century half starving bear chested roadside robber who is no more than a skinny pack of bones and ribs.
The enemy of yore is not the enemy of modern day. Contemporary enemies are bigger, stronger, and pack heavy clothing.
Even if, as you and Tomoyose sensei said, we wasted a lifetime training our spear hand etc., there is still lots of doubt in my mind, according to research by Siddle, that we would be able to use such weapons under stress, and to hit the so called “pressure points”.
While punches to the face should be discouraged by a good sensei, because of the likely possibility of ending up with a broken hand or blood poisoning, when it comes to the rib cage, a good chest caving punch is king, because it is all gross motor and will work wonders, along with knees and elbows, especially the type used by Muay Thai fighters, that are much more superior to what we think we have in Uechi.
Bob Campbell and Art Rabesa are master instructors in this.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Van
Great discussion of nukite!
It takes time to digest all these comments and to fully appreciate them! But I do want to add my two-cents to the discussion. Most of us might well tend to throw punches and perhaps kicks in a real,knockdown,rough and tumble fight and this is because our 'instinctive' way of fighting takes over rather than what we have learned rationally. I know people talk about 'fighting the way you train' but some of us reverse this notion and 'train the way we fight' but you have to determine and analyse first how you actually fight ,which 'aint easy'! This is often why we hear of Black Belts being creamed by others who know nothing of martial arts,though not always the case. The nukite is actually a faster, longer weapon, as many will point out, than a closed fist, assuming you are doing all this from a face-on position which rarely happens as we might like it, and you see this type of thing in nearly all videos of self-defense,etc. One-on-one is great but such instances are now always there! But you can learn certain principles and some techniques from such demos,etc. LThose of you who do some Wing Chun, of whatever style or variety, and JKD know that the open palm,etc. is what I have stated above, when used in a thrust,etc. Now the finger positions for different styles will vary and so will methods for training the fingers. If you can't thrust into a watermelon with nukite and I know I can't as yet,since I haven't practiced this, then you can be sure your nukite might not be as deadly as you think.Nevertheless, if you haven't don this example, try it. Have someone grasp you on the neck,throat,with arms extended, facing you and have him gently squeeze! There are numerous ways to get out of this and to defend yourself, but one I find very easy, and you all know it,undoubtedly, simply extend your arm,hand with one finger outstretched into the base of the Adam's Apple or notch at the base of the neck.You can exert mild or hard pressure if needed, of course, but it generally works,except for guys you might meet who can snap arrows or bend spears placed in the same place! The one-finger thrust is a specialized nukite. Another area to consider is the area where the upper leg/thigh meets the abdominal or groin area and is sort of a fold,if I recall correctly, that can be hit with nukite, which work well if done with double hands,but you all know these variations, I am sure. Let me know your comments on this. Thanks. HalfordVan Canna wrote:Hi Henry,Another point you brought up that might be worth exploring.That might be, but having worked with American and Okinawan masters, none have pointed this out to me.I think that the spear hand strikes in our katas are aiming for the pressure points at the lower chest or the rib cage, where there are several pressure points.
So do they know this? And if they do and are not teaching it, why is that?
Not that I know much about pressure point strikes, or would I try using it in a fight, and --- no offense to the Okinawans--- Pressure point strikes is part of the package for most Kung Fu styles. However, the Chinese Kung Fu masters in the old days usually (based on the stories I heard anyway) did not teach pressure point strikes until the student has been with the master for a long while and gained his trust. A few years of studying Kung Fu, especially by an Okinawan in China back in those days, may not be long enough to accomplish that. It is just my opinion. Again, I can't prove it.
Also, before someone jumps all over me, please let me say that, in my opinion, it is not necessary to have the "whole package". For example, learning Chinese broad swords and long spears is part of the package too but I won't tell you what I feel about learning that stuff. Hint: It was the main reason I left Kung Fu.
Van, if you haven't watched Bas Rutten doing his liver kicks and liver punches, please do. I can see you jumping out of your chair watching those liver strikeswhen it comes to the rib cage, a good chest caving punch is king,
Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Boy, this discussion is all over the map, no?
A few comments...
First to Rick and DZ1050... I think perhaps there's a middle ground to this martial do vs. martial jutsu discussion. And the answer can be inferred from the book On killing by Lt Col David Grossman. To make a long section of the book short, the truth is that homo sapiens is not genetically programmed to kill - in spite of all the bravado. Those that kill with ease in battle are either highly conditioned to do so, or are innately sociopathic. Evidence from countless battles in history shows that the vast majority of combatants never actually fired their weapons at an opponent when up close and personal. Firing weapons from a sanitized distance - yes. Firing point blank? Only in the movies for most. More evidence shows that humans cannot engage in battle for more than a few months before psychologically self destructing. Bottom line - we are NOT natural killers. And it's a good thing; otherwise we'd have self destructed as a species generations ago.
Yes, we train to kill. Yes, what we do never quite makes sense unless we consider realistic scenarios and all the things that can go right/wrong when in those situations. Yes, we kick a little bootie in the ring, and maybe get our own bells rung in the process. But killing? It's not really natural.
The complete warrior must deal with the complete psychological package. The complete warrior consciously distances himself from real killing. And the complete warrior finds ways to be debriefed and deprogrammed before entering "normal life" again.
So... We do indeed practice this martial business for years and years without really getting into the business of killing. We kid ourselves when we think otherwise.
More in another post.
- Bill
A few comments...
First to Rick and DZ1050... I think perhaps there's a middle ground to this martial do vs. martial jutsu discussion. And the answer can be inferred from the book On killing by Lt Col David Grossman. To make a long section of the book short, the truth is that homo sapiens is not genetically programmed to kill - in spite of all the bravado. Those that kill with ease in battle are either highly conditioned to do so, or are innately sociopathic. Evidence from countless battles in history shows that the vast majority of combatants never actually fired their weapons at an opponent when up close and personal. Firing weapons from a sanitized distance - yes. Firing point blank? Only in the movies for most. More evidence shows that humans cannot engage in battle for more than a few months before psychologically self destructing. Bottom line - we are NOT natural killers. And it's a good thing; otherwise we'd have self destructed as a species generations ago.
Yes, we train to kill. Yes, what we do never quite makes sense unless we consider realistic scenarios and all the things that can go right/wrong when in those situations. Yes, we kick a little bootie in the ring, and maybe get our own bells rung in the process. But killing? It's not really natural.
The complete warrior must deal with the complete psychological package. The complete warrior consciously distances himself from real killing. And the complete warrior finds ways to be debriefed and deprogrammed before entering "normal life" again.
So... We do indeed practice this martial business for years and years without really getting into the business of killing. We kid ourselves when we think otherwise.
More in another post.
- Bill
