Think you are ready? If so, why?

[Bill Glasheen]

Ted

Much appreciated. BTW, did you ever meet Bruce when he was in Charlottesville?

Rick

Thanks for prodding our memory about your Kyu Kumite writeup. Oye, you went through a lot of work there! It takes time to do that.

The biggest problem I have in doing an effort like this is that there are SO many layers of learning and understanding. Bruce showed you just a few levels associated with Kyu Kumite. I'm STILL messing with that exercise. Lately I've been applying principles of Donald Chu (Jumping Into Plyometrics) to the movement, and working a few of my black belts through it. It's different... For example you could choose to end up on the inside on Kyu Kumite #2 and "tiger fork" the person with a simultaneous block/attack. Or...you could go to the outside and apply the principle of the drum technique a la Karate Kid II - essentially using principles of plyometrics. That would involve exciting neuromuscular reflexes on both a rotational and translational axis. It can get really complex.

Now that you have shown me a "template," I'll see if I can work up a little time here and there to do SOMETHING for Dan Kumite. Perhaps I could do them one at a time, and invite comment. I think the reason why your post went by with so little comment is because it was too much information for this kind of interactive, semi-real-time format.

To All

I've been saving something in my back pocket that I haven't brought to the table yet, but feel like this might be a good opportunity. Years ago I purchased a book by Leung Ting on Wing Tsun Kung Fu. In the book are sticky-hand-like prearranged (yakusoku) kumite. But the neatest feature of them is that they have "branch points." The person doing them reaches decision points at which (s)he must choose to go down one path or the next. The partner must respond in turn. It's really neat, and it jars people out of their I'm-doing-this-irrespective-of-you mode we all dislike so much in poorly executed yakusoku kumite. I have such a branch point in one of my Dan Kumites, and that decision is made based on which arm someone blocks a front kick in #3. Right now I have them as a #3 and a #7, but I challenge the student to react the right way if their partner "goofs."

I believe there's a lot of opportunity doing kumite this way. And I frankly see NOTHING wrong with a defender ending Kyu Kumite at the first attack now and then just to show (s)he can do it if mentally prepared and to prove to themselves that they can do it without the attacker knowing it is going to be done.

FWIW.

- Bill

[Ted Dinwiddie]

I have never met Bruce, but would be honored to do so.

I've been playing with Tristan a bit lately, though. The young man is quite quick.

[Ron Klein]

Rich- can I add the S&W 380 auto to your list?


The analysis of the kyu kumite is very interesting. As I have mentioned, after modifying and trying to fit the prearranged kyu kumite (and even dan-kumite) into a more dynamic training cirriculum, I abandoned them, even as scaffolds for instruction. I chose to use "prearranged" (spontaneous?) drills extracted from kata, or as stated elsewhere, from the life expericences of instructors, students and victims.

As I read these posts I am realizing that there is a downside to my instruction. My dojo is small, I only will teach a few students. That permits constant interaction and supervision-as well as my own participation. I can have a new student actually training with someone who has anywhere from 15-30+ years of dedicated experience. The prearranged drills we design are not locked in time, they change frequently to emphasize specific principles-many described by your postings. The principles are consistent as are the kata. Also with a smaller class I am not distracted by testing sanchin while students pair up.

Now, for a school with a larger number of students, unless there are several skilled senior instructors to assist, I believe it would be difficult to conduct prearranged drills as I do. That is, not having a "standardized " scaffold used as a reference point that puts everyone pretty much on the same page. What I am reading here is the scaffold is just a reference point with variation based on the objectives of the instructor-as so clearly stated by Bruce and earlier summarized by Rick.

A senior instructor has an obligation to maintain control over his classes, one way to assure a level of control-to avoid injury and impart training-is through prearranged drills.

When I visit schools with larger classes and either conduct a class or seminar I will use their dan kumite or prearranged drils as a reference point for introducing new material or dealing with various problems (like balance, stepping off the line, sequential striking). It sounds like all of you have evolved away from the linear robotic pre-arranged kumites, (except in intro classes) which were, in retrospect a straight line to dangerous habits.

I was talking with our students last night before class on how much has changed in the Uechi community in the past five years...in a positive way. This thread is a clear illustration.


Ron

[gmattson]

Those students who have been with me over the years, have practiced many versions of dan kumite. Anyone viewing the '64 Okinawa video taken at Kanei Uechi's dojo will have seen C. Earle and me go through one of the first dan kumite. Whewww, talk about robotic. Of course we had just learned the drill during that day's class and it probably looks much the way new students do it anywhere.

Although the basic moves are the same, the movements can be done with an infinite number of variations, applications and emphasis. I'll fast-forward though and discuss my 2003-4 experiments.

Bill came closest to explaining it. I don't really view dan kumite as fighting, rather an exercise in timing, reaction, balance, blending, closing and speed development.

Try performing the drill using fast and soft attacks and blocks. Partners reacting with soft and fast blocks and counters. When performed in this manner (More Chinese influence than Okinawan/Japanese), attacks do not try to penetrate through partner's defense. Instead, when an attack touches the block, the attack stops and another attack begins.

The drill, when performed with this emphasis, develops fight related abilities (although I can hear the screaming in the background from Van) using karate techniques and is a hell of a lot more fun than jumping rope or hitting a speed bag.

Not your Grandfather's dan kumite. Not for everyone. But not "dead" either.

[RACastanet]

Ron said: "Rich- can I add the S&W 380 auto to your list?"

Hmmm.... I am not familiar with that model Ron. S&W does not currently have a .380 in its lineup. Do you have one? How old is it?

You can add it to the list only if it meets the no hammer and no safety/decocker requirement.

Keep debating. This is very interesting.

Regards, Rich

[Van Canna]

The drill, when performed with this emphasis, develops fight related abilities (although I can hear the screaming in the background from Van) using karate techniques and is a hell of a lot more fun than jumping rope or hitting a speed bag.

I don't hink so, George.

So far all the screaming we have heard is from the "other side" along with "hair pulling".. like Rick wrote: we start a thread on kumites, and we get the "fear response"...

Pretty funny though.

Kumites are good, but up to a point, no matter what the "layers"

They were designed for free style sparring, and that's fine.

But for teaching reactive, close quarters combat concept, they will always remain marginal.

Fun to do? Sure.. so let's have fun, while we learn something marginally useful. No problem with that.

[Bill Glasheen]

Tch, tch, tch...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Tch, tch, tch...

- Bill

Don't you mean Tsst..tssst?

[RACastanet]

You two are quite amusing to observe from a distance.

Rich

[Rick Wilson]

Fun comments.

I think my other thread expressed my opinions of prearranged work. I consider prearranged work necessary for skill building.

However, to me if we are using prearranged work to build certain skills then they should lead directly into using them in an impromptu setting.

Most often my focus today is going from short prearranged drills to NOT prearranged in the same session working from a preset drill to using the same skills in an impromptu drill.

The prearranged work is used for that drill and will often be somewhat different the next time we return to work through it again.

This is where I have left the Kyu and Dan Kumite behind because they do not fit often with the skills I wish to teach. Just explaining my approach here, nothing else, so deep breath everyone I’m not starting up again.

We usually begin with some prearranged attack and response working a particular skill or portion of a Kata. We start at a distance where the person has to step to attack. A number of different but very closely related prearranged attack/responses (or an attack we initiate) will get run through.

We then graduate from the prearranged into more impromptu work with fast exchanges. In other words all the parties involved are trying to win the encounter.

We then move the same drills in close to what is often called trapping range. A short time, or none, is spent in prearranged before moving right into the impromptu.

We then move the same drills in close to that clinch area. No prearranged we go into the impromptu. I expect them to work on how to translate the skills we were working on to each distance so that they can go directly from one to another.

We do a lot of ground work but we should probably add this as well for the drills. (Always ways to improve.)

Often we will build layers to the impromptu work. For example we are working a close sticky hands (forearms linked close to the elbows) drills. Levels:

1. Trap and hook arms while striking to the body.
2. Add in leg attacks.
3. Add in hooking, grabbing and ripping.
4. Add in striking to the arms and legs.
5. Anything goes.

This layering is built in to simplify the environment they are working in which allows them to focus on the skills we are developing. Increasing the complexity of the environment pushes the use of the skills until they are attempting to use them in a chaotic environment.

The prearranged portion is so that the students get to work on the skill or application we are focusing on. Then they must take this into the impromptu to apply it against an uncooperative opponent who is also trying to take them out.

[Bruce Hirabayashi]

Hi Rick:

Absolutely no need to thank me for my post; after all it was merely a response to the very interesting exchanges you, Bill and Ron were having. In fact, like Ted, I thank the three of you (as well as George, Van, Dana and other contributors) for giving the rest of us much to think about during the past couple of weeks.

By the way, please excuse my slowness to respond. While you three (and Van) seem to have the remarkable ability to generate reams of clearly written and logically organized prose almost as fast as we can read it, I need to go thru several tortuous drafts before something readable finally stumbles forth …

Thanks for the link to your Jan 2002 Kumite Principles thread; I’d missed it the first time thru. I’ll try to sneak some time to read it in the next couple of days (My wife Erica thinks I should be playing with our four kids, making progress on the “honey do” list, etc. rather than “goofing off” on the computer … ).

By the way, Timothy Ahearn and Ian Jenkins, two Nidans from Bill’s “family” of students, have done a wonderful job compiling much of the information created over the past 28 years by University of Virginia Uechi-ryu teachers and students (Yes, I’m a UVA alumnus). If you haven’t already, you might check out their “Uechi-ryu Resources” section:

http://scs.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/home.html

As for dan-kumite variations, I need to think a little about how best to present the topic on this forum. While (as I wrote earlier) it’s one of my favorite subjects, I usually have props (e.g., students) next to me while holding forth, and I can SHOW them (bore them with?) multiple variations and the ramifications of each.

As Bill pointed out, trying to explain the fine nuances of dan-kumite variations in text is much more difficult than it is for kyu-kumite as dan-kumite variations are much more subtle, dynamic and subjective. The principles shown in more advanced dan-kumite include

• - continuing to think about how to nullify an opponent’s attacks by “not being there”, while at the same time
  
  - counterstriking NOT necessarily to immediately finish someone off, rather to hit in such a way that it sets up an opponent to give you an opening that will allow you to finish him/her off by the 2nd or 3rd move.
  
  - The value of varying the timing of the movements; e.g, what should be done full speed and where inserting hesitation allows you to gain advantage by forcing the opponent to commit to a technique;
  
  - How to make the techniques flow organically from one to another rather leave in artificial boundaries
  
  - The idea, given Uechi-ryu's 12" to 18" distancing assumption, that the rhythm of Uechi-ryu is necessarily "attack, attack, attack" rather than the "attack / block, attack / block" rhythm found in styles that assume a longer distance between opponents. A close corollary to this idea is that Uechi-ryu "ukes" are in truth, offensive techniques rather than blocks.
  
  By the way, for me, this distancing assumption is the key to gaining an understanding of why we do what we do in Uechi-ryu.
  
  - And so on.

Naturally these variations change in real-time as each student responds to attacks slightly differently, at slightly different angles, at slightly different speeds, using varying levels of strength and distancing. In other words, you run into the problem of multiple nested if/then scenarios. The idea is similar to that mentioned in the Wing Tsung book Bill discusses above. Naturally, while this discussion can be quite interesting when you are working live with a training partner, it is mind-bendingly tedious when trying to describe such fine nuances in text.

At the end, I may have to try to find the time to record a few short illustrative videos, then work with Scott Danzinger to get them posted …

Cheers,

Bruce

[Bruce Hirabayashi]

Hi Ron:

I think your scaffold commentary is spot on and illustrates an excellent reason for standards. As you correctly point out, standard training exercises provide essential reference points to compare the progresss of different students when you (1) have a large number of students or (2) are trying to compare student performance across more than one dojo.

You also make several quite interesting points concerning the difference in teaching a small class vs. a large class.

I would very much like to explore these two topics further, as I think we can learn a lot from the opinions our eminent posters.

However, since commenting now would have the effect of pulling this thread in yet two more directions, would it be best to instead start a new thread?

Cheers,

Bruce

[Rick Wilson]

Thanks Bruce and I wasn’t calling your bluff because I knew you weren’t bluffing.

[Bill Glasheen]

That's fine, Bruce.

Only TWO directions???

Throw all the chaffe out of these discussions and what you have left is quite a bit. I'm enjoying seeing how others do kata training.

When I taught at U.Va., I always taught in cycles that revolved around semesters. Some might find it interesting that I started the semester with kotekitae, ashikitae, karadakitae, ukemi, and yakusoku/bunkai kumite. From that point, I would then branch to two different directions - kata and jiyu training. The early training served as the foundation to help the people understand how to go from the choreographed (with a partner) to the spontaneous and freeform (with a partner). The cycle would then repeat again in the next semester, with the student having a better understanding of things.

Frankly these days I think we're all learning about how to do this kata to freeform fighter (as apposed to tournament sparrer). Think about all we know today that wasn't even in the dojo 10 years ago.

One more comment... I enjoy the discussions about Kanbun's training and the size of his dojo. However I think one of the reasons training was done that way was because...THAT WAS THE SIZE OF HIS DOJO! Would he have done differently if he was a rich man and had a big gymnasium to teach many? More importantly, does phone booth fighting define the all of what we should be prepared for? Just a thought...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

I enjoy the discussions about Kanbun's training and the size of his dojo. However I think one of the reasons training was done that way was because...THAT WAS THE SIZE OF HIS DOJO! Would he have done differently if he was a rich man and had a big gymnasium to teach many? More importantly, does phone booth fighting define the all of what we should be prepared for? Just a thought...

Not really, Bill.

My information is that __ There was hard packed dirt space, big space, outside his dojo, where Kanbun would extensively drill his students in Dantai no kata.

It would have been a simple matter to bring outside the Jiyu Kobo practice.

Kanbun’s focus was in close quarters battle, and he felt the best way to teach it was in cramped quarters.