Hard and soft circles?

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Do you use a "parry" when using the wauke against a thrust?

Usually
3
75%
Sometimes
1
25%
Never
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 4

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Bill Glasheen
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Hard and soft circles?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

The more I learn, the ignoranter I seem to feel... :lol:

This "circle thingie" intrigues me more every day. Just when I think I have something figured out (and I usually do), I find there's another perfectly reasonable way to look at the exact same motion.

Let's start with the name - wa*uke. It translates as circle*block. Aaarrrggghhh!!! This was a Chinese "thing" until someone on Okinawa chose to call it by what it's supposed to be, or so they thought. If only that person saw what I do with circles in Seisan. Out go the lights! If only they saw the way a great grappler or aikidoka uses circles to manipulate and gain advantage and even throw.

It's just a circle, damnit!

But let's get back to the very, very narrow subject of using it as a circle "reception" (call it block if you must) for a linear attack. It's a great thing for this fighting system. The open hands separate us from the closed-fisted fighters that must interrupt what they do to grab. When we "receive" a technique, we are put in a position to get hold of an attacker and begin to control their center. Good stuff...

There are two very, very different schools of thought that I see on this thing.

* Many people see the circle as the first thing that intercepts a linear attack. They like the fact that they're contacting with the broad side of the forearm.

* Some folks (myself included) see a parry of some sort as the first likely contact with the linear attack. Say what you will about the value of your super-dooper circles. I don't see squat for circles when I watch people spar. My esteemed colleague Mr. Khoury went so far as to suggest that perhaps the true meaning and value of the circles was in the reverse circle, and that Okinawans hid the fact they were practicing tode in their back yards (see Gary's sparring video, available on George's online store). You see...our sparring buddies just don't use the darned things. What's up with that? But they DO parry all the time. Sure, sure, talk to me about how parrying uses the palm and that can't happen during the dump, and yada, yada, yada. I don't think so. One of the most natural things people do is to parry. Westerners in particular have had perhaps tens of thousands of balls thrown at them in their lifetimes. And you know what? You don't have to parry with the palm. Miss, hit with the forearm instead, and you are still good. THEN when you've deflected the attack ever so slightly and you're on the way back to a chamber, you deftly hand the technique over to a softer circle that is better able to concentrate on snatching this thing.

Trust me - it works. I have exercises where I have people drill this face-to-face ad nauseum. Do it outside and you parry down the center line - just like the wauke at the end of Sanchin. Do it inside and you parry a little farther - the distance you bring your hand across in the main body of Sanchin when chambering. It's the same thing you do in kata, thousands and thousands of times. It works.

Under the dump? I think so.

* But then... I was working with George on kotekitae in a class some time back. (Yes, I listen to my teacher now and then... ;) ). Anyhow, he has this way of shifting his body orientation ever so slightly to and fro, and all of a sudden this circle can move a Mack Truck. Find that groove, and it's simply amazing. But...you are doing a very strong motion with that circle. You can practically rip the person's arm out of the socket w/o ever grabbing on to it. I've gotten to the point now that I have to tone it down a bit in kotekitae. 8O Need more big brutes to pick on. :mrgreen:

But you see...the more you focus on making that circle something that moves a truck, the less likely (IMHO) you're going to be able deftly to grab that thing you're working with. It's possible, for sure. But a football receiver with "great hands" has an amazing ability to hold the hands soft until the point of contact. In a flash, their hands become Venus Fly Traps. Same with basketball, baseball, etc. It's a feeling thing, and you can't feel right when you're exerting too much force. A receiver can't catch a ball that he's beating. He's receiving the thing, after all...

But you sure can move people like midgets with that power circle. :) Sometimes a guy just wants to let that testosterone rip... :twisted:

But...I was working with Gushi sensei the other week. And Gushi has this way of doing circles big, slowly, and with open hands until the end. Then he curls them. Damn... It's just like what I've been trying to teach my black belts about doing that 4-times move in Seiryu. Big, soft, slow, smooth, open....FOCUS!!!. Well, not exactly like Gushi sensei and the simple "wauke," (circle thingie...), but... It made me think I might be thinking right.

Maybe... :)

- Bill

P.S. I'm not looking for anyone to solve this riddle for me. I'm happy with its complexity, and hope the plot gets thicker!
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
maxwell ainley
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Post by maxwell ainley »

Bill ,very good points in all you say ,as always .

Just gonna try and cross ref: with you ,but tell me if its wrong .
In my masonery apprenticeship ,I was taught by one of the very best types you are likely to come across in various arts .
Now in these crafts they have the equals in skill of any art ,
In reflection he was very hard with me ,I actually at first told my mam of the hard treatment I was getting ,she laughed at me ,the thing is I did not know ,they were in contact socially .
Now with time he softened ,with my progress ,then suddenly hard lined me ,then softened of again ,it rotated to " craftsman points " when he one day ,years later filled me in .

A bit on skill ,juggling a smallish stone or brick ,you pick up the brick our Yang tiger hand ,simultaneously you look for best face finish side ,you see and turn mini rotate to palm up yin hand, slight angulation inward downward ,at this point the fingers have released the brick by now in the transitions and are very very relaxed [ WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS FOR EIGHT HRS]so too tensed will quickly tire us on that finger point .
We now spread the fingers ,creating a mini hollowed palm ,we now are at a very economical angulation to spin/rotate the brick on the sensitive high points anticlockwise to get the seen /detected best brick face ,near side to our body now turn it back to the tigerhand position .

We are ready to lay it on to the bed that we pick up of the board in a rolling scooping motion similar to sanseirui ,all this is done in one swift motion 'as one' we spread and bed the brick into position by a release grab to a palm press down not to hard ,or it will go below the line,and not too soft it hardly moves at all ,yet with a practiced pressure that hits the line ten out of ten ,the trowel is held very soft and light in the ippon ken position ,when it cuts the projecting mortar it connects with the wall very lightly and cuts the surplus ,in either a pulling motion or a pushing ,to suit the way you are working .


max.
max ainley
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

I’ve just been doing some Yang’s style Tai Chi and I’ve noticed that in many ways it is similar to Uechi. The same moves done in a different way. The first movement of the form is to turn to the right with the right hand palm up ( al a Uechi ) but the left palm touching the right arm at the elbow. .
The application is from a right punch, block right and to the outside. Your left hand grasps his wrist and you right palm turns downward to press his arm down, you can then sweep him. Alternatively you can block a left punch from the inside and rotate your right hand over to catch his left elbow (similar to shiho nage of aikido)..The body movement and mechanics are exactly the same. Also of interest is the Uechi stance, this is mirrored briefly (as a transition) in pushing with both hands.
I think that Sanchin’s creator had some understanding of Tai Chi. or maybe the other way around
maxwell ainley
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Post by maxwell ainley »

jorvik,In the 70s I visited with a friend his yang style teacher Rose Li ,we often compared ref;back to uechi ,at the time he was pretty much into softness ,and he had worked sanchin with me ,he was then my co equal ,yes the more we delve cross ref; we find very similar concepts of movement softness /hardness etc ,the thing is we may not see them this year,but if we constantly check ,sooner or later we find things ,What do you think?

Yorvik I cross ref; sometimes in totally different formats ,and find these common/uncommon elements appear to uechi.

max.
max ainley
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Max

Reading your piece about brick laying reminds me of the scene in Seven Samurai where the group finds a famous swordsman cutting wood. I believe when asked who his teacher was, he stated he was from the wood cutting school.

And then we go to Okinawan karate/kobudo, and find so many movements that use the same body mechanics as what the farmers use when working the fields. And we study aikido and see movments like shiho nage where manipulating the forearm is done in the exact same fashion as swinging a katana.

Each of us learns basic body mechanics in our own ways. Some start by learning them through kata, but I think this is an exception to the rule. My first student to make it to black belt was a former gymnast. He was ready in very short order, because he already had all the gross motor movements internalized.

Often I think about what modern professions or sports would train the right mechanics in a good Uechi fighter. Proper weight training is without a doubt a good activity. Outside that I think of rock climbing often, as the practitioner learns to use hands and fingers in ways that make the "walkers with jars" look like amateurs. Lifting your body weight with a few fingers? The activity transforms the body, and makes the practitioner see things that others never could.

And I see that in your profession too, Max. Great stuff. Yes, you must manipulate those bricks one after another...all day long...eight hours worth. Do it right and you can wake up tomorrow and lay another day's worth. And it's no wonder that the apprentice spends a lot of time first mixing cement, carrying bricks to the layer, etc., etc. It takes time to condition the body and learn the mechanics.

Thanks for sharing that.

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I added a poll to the beginning, just to get a feel for what people do "out there."

Thanks for registering your preferences.

- Bill
Halford
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Natural work patterns are great for some things!

Post by Halford »

:D The circles one makes in various ways can be done with weights,of course, such as,dumbbells, wrist weights that are strapped one, glove weights,etc. or they can be done as some school of Chinese Kungfu do, holding sacks of rice(small ones), sacks of sand, sacks of metal filings or shot,etc. There are also other devices. The reference to brick laying reminded me of this. Various ways of grasping things and also not grasping things are important it would seem. Some of the arnis movements seem to have come, according to some schools of thought, from hitching harnesses to horses,the movements, of which concealed techniques! So the point that some daily work tasks concealed karate tactics and movements is not far-fetched as it might seem to some. The modern varieties of karate are more 'OPEN' and the subtle movements usually ignored sometimes in favor of more spectacular motions,etc. The daily work of peoples in indigenous,primitive, and 'traditional' cultures often gave them a tenacity that is lacking in modern day practitioners! The old-timers in early history called it ,'raw-hide' toughness! This intensity-tenaciousness seems to be lacking in many ways, even though some practitioners are powerful and massive,etc.
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newguy
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Post by newguy »

Always use a 'parry' - never been taught any other way. I don't think of the circle part - the wa-uke as a 'block' - it's a grab, a dropping of a hand onto a target, to pull the opponent of balance or tansition into a wrist lock/arm bar etc.
"Dying ain't much of a living boy." J. Wales
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