Titles

[Walkman]

What do the titles Kiyoshi and Hanshi mean?

Just curious.

-Walkman

[Halford]

In fact, what does sensei mean? Check out the meanings of all these titles and compare some of them to ranks...........

[2Green]

Walkman:
Quoting from "Uechi Ryu Karate Do" (G. Mattson; yes, of this site)

Page 17: Kyoshi=10 years of teaching (Uechi Ryu?) Karate. This is in context of the the 7th-Dan rank.

"Shihan" is a generic Japanese term for any highly-ranked teacher of the Japanese cultural arts, as nearly as I can determine.
Uechi Ryu is considered a Chinese/Okinawan, not a Japanese/Okinawan martial art, so the term Shihan might not be used much in such circles.

NM

[2Green]

Halford:
"Sensei" means "one who has gone before".

Presumably this means one who has already been down the path they are now guiding you along.
In the context of Karate, it seems natural that such person would have a higher rank than the student.
But it doesn't mean that all who out rank you are your "sensei".

NM

[Halford]

Is a sensei of higher 'rank' or is a 'sensei' an instructor? Ponder this for a while and give me your answers, please.

[Bill Glasheen]

Sensei means teacher. In first grade, you were taught by a sensei. Every profession (martial or non-martial) has its own set of requirements that certify you as a teacher or instructor.

Renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi are "titles" (as opposed to "ranks") associated with years of service and significant contribution. Generally they are thought of as levels of "master" or shihan. Most traditional Japanese systems give the titles out; each has its own set of requirements.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Karate follows the guild tradition. Folks with more experience foster the learning and development of folks with less development. Personally, I've enjoyed moving away from the idea of a strict vertical lineage of my learning. I think more of a web - many strands of instruction feeding into me. Also it seems more reasonable to me look at many sources rather than expecting one person to be able to foster all of your skills. Do I care about the titles of my teachers? Nope.

In the Okikukai there are instructor ranks separate from grade rankings.
Shidoin  (Apprentice Instructor) (2nd dan and above)
Jun Shihan (Instructor) (4th dan and above)
Shihan (Master Instructor) (5th dan and above)

Shihan implies - "teacher of teachers"

Sensei is the generic Japanese word for teacher. In other sports they're called "coach". But since teachers of easter arts often make a special claim to developing the spiritual abilities of the student in addition to just their physical or just their mental ones - neither the teacher nor the term coach generally are used. So in my mind the mystique of sensei in the West is just that - mystique. I don't generally refer to the term sensei - I tend to use the word teacher unless somebody starts to get their knickers in a twist. Then I'll call them by whatever makes them happy - it's just words after all.

Here's one of my favorite quote from Dan Millman...

Our teachers appear in many forms.
Master teachers
are found not only
on lonely mountaintops
or in the ashrams of the East.
Our teachers may take the form
of friends and adversaries-
of clouds, animals, wind, and water.
Moment to moment, our teachers
reveal all we need to know.
The question is,
are we paying attention?
When the student is ready,
the teacher appears.
Everywhere.

[Bill Glasheen]

Sensei is the generic Japanese word for teacher. In other sports they're called "coach". But since teachers of easter arts often make a special claim to developing the spiritual abilities of the student in addition to just their physical or just their mental ones - neither the teacher nor the term coach generally are used. So in my mind the mystique of sensei in the West is just that - mystique.

Well put, Dana.

When I took Nihon go (Japanese language), Michiko Wilson was my sensei. I did not need to bow to her, nor did she work on my mushin. She assigned reading, gave homework, instructed us to use language lab, corrected our work, taught us how to speak, and gave out grades.

Like you, I see the "mistique" as just that, and don't give it much thought. There are the more formal among us who insist on protocol and such, beyond what you associate with the military traditions from which many karate instructors hail. Whatever... We aim to please and get along.

Do I care about the titles of my teachers? Nope.

Sigh... Do you mean, Dana, that you aren't enamored with my aspiration to be Grand Poobah, and Rich's to be Generalissimo? Damn, what's an aspiring guru to do?

In all seriousness though, credentials are important in life. When they are legitimate and are bestowed by reputable organizations, they imply a certain basic level of competence, and often a license to operate in various venues. That's where the titles come in handy.

- Bill

[Ron Klein]

The issue of Asian titles having taken on a
mystique" is well put. The importance of titles in some venues is also quite true, though I don't care either and am more interested in the qualities of the person than their certificates.

When I visit other schools I am very formal, unless asked to be otherwise-yes we aim to get along.....

I think the issue is really one of respect which can be shown, or not shown, in many ways.....

I prefer the mutual respect of Mr. and Ms. over the more formal Japanese titles-and it goes both ways.(We still use first names and Sensei--mostly from habit). I prefer Mr/Ms. This preference came from working in a corporate environment where even the CEO insisted that everyone used first names. Too much familariaty can lead to false expectations...."Jane, sorry you are fired.." "Bill how could you?" "We'll, I am the CEO..."

Bill, I apologize---I thought everyone was calling you "Grand Pooh-Bear" .


Ron

[RACastanet]

Bill said: "Sigh... Do you mean, Dana, that you aren't enamored with my aspiration to be Grand Poobah, and Rich's to be Generalissimo? Damn, what's an aspiring guru to do?"

Hehehehehehe. Yes, I have actually told people my goal is to be Generalissimo. Of just what I do not know.

On a related subject, I have been taking more people to the range these days for firearm training and I tell them that when at the range, I am 'GOD'. They can call me Rich or coach or Mister or whatever, but my words are law. Period. Any violation and the lesson is over. One error would be one too many, and could be fatal. That sets the proper tone!

Rich

[Halford]

Well, i was going to mention or ask that do most of you consider a sensei as being a man? Because if you assume most men are sensei(s) then you would be wrong and the title actually is found, as someone pointed out ahead of me, with other activities in Japan other than martial arts, such as, origami, flower arrangement, tea ceremony, probably even go,and so forth. There are many women who are sensei(s). Since it is a title we should also use it as we would the terms,Mr or MS(to be politically correct). However, when used in the Japanese manner, we would not say, for example, Sensei Jones, but Jones,Sensei. This comes from using the last name first or rather family name first, and given name second in many Asian situations. In the US we put the cart before the horse so- to- speak.In our eagerness to be buddy-buddy with everyone, on a first name basis, we ignore family names which can be much more important in the Orient than here in the US. Again, other customs such as bowing set off many emotions in Westerners when having to do so and when WEsterners disdain such, when in the presence of Japanese,etc. it often seems insulting. But all this is taking too much of my time to fully discuss here to the degree it really deserves.

[Walkman]

So the title of Kiyoshi would be somewhat the equivalent to a Doctorate?

The title of "teacher" in the Eastern cultures holds a much higher respect than here in the US, which is unfortunate in my view. I have a number of Asian Indians associates. One of the traits that they have brought here form thier culture is how they regard thier "gurus". Very similar to other Asian cultures. One humbly submits to the teachings of guru or sensei and takes learning from them with a mixture of seriousness and gratitude.

As a part time college professor, these are traits woefully missing from many American students.

I'm going to get off that particular soapbox. Don't get me started...

[Halford]

Of course, popular culture always uses the image of the 'absent-minded professor' as a buffoon,etc. or 'the mad scientist' and so forth and this filters down. Also, calling teachers and profs by first names is always a bad idea but this comes from bosses dressing down on Fridays and calling everyone by their first name and allowing you to call them that way. Only a few Doctors(medical) I know still want you to call them 'Dr'. It comes from our wanting to bring everything and everybody to the same level and this is going to happen as globalization takes place wage-wise! But that is another topic, also fraught with peril! Enough ranting for now! Halford at http://arnis.homestead.com

[Dana Sheets]

I expect everyone who thinks they're my teacher to have a title that's at least 5 words long.

For example:

The Greatest Adept of Skills, Your Name Here

Which - would of course be shortened to GAS, - (a.k.a. full of hot air)

I have great respect for my teachers. I'm just constantly confused by the efforts of karate practitioners to be more Japanese than the Japanese. Especially when we're westerners studying an Okinawan/Chinese art.

Dana

[Walkman]

the efforts of karate practitioners to be more Japanese than the Japanese. Especially when we're westerners studying an Okinawan/Chinese art.

LOL. Very astute observation.

I can tell you I really fell into that in High School. In retrospect, since I'm a plain vanilla white guy with a scattered European anchestry, I was probably trying to find a heritage I could call my own, even if it was adopted.