Kerry Wins Iowa

[benzocaine]

So... what do you all think? I know many here are from Mass.

Like him? Don't? Why?

[Deep Sea]

I just read the following about Kerry:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 1219.shtml

Pray tell, what is one supposed to think. Help me out, here, Benzo!

[benzocaine]

Pray tell, what is one supposed to think. Help me out, here, Benzo!

Hmmmm. I always thought he was a war hero who testified about the war before congress. I never knew what he testified though. All this gives me a different perspective on him.

You can bet my vietnam veteran Dad will not vote for him.

[Dana Sheets]

Anyone seen "Fog of War"? It is a recently released Errol Morris documentary about Robert McNamara. While some of Kerry's actions could be viewed as extremist I think it's important to consider the fact that many, many people (and as it turns out this includes Robert McNamara) felt we should have left Vietnam much earlier and that we did a terrible job of communicating to both the vietnamese and our own soliders why we were there.

It is the job of a solider to follow orders. I doubt that soliders were told to brutilize civilians - yet under the pressure and strain of that war many, many war crimes were committed. Kerry, instead of keeping silent on these atrocities chose to speak out about them.

My understanding of the 60's is that many people picked up the label of "communist" because they couldn't agree with the way democracy was purportedly being "promoted" around the world through police-action warfare. Today - many of those folks would probably have picked up a "libertarian" label or even a "green party" one.

And, as is mentioned in the article, why would it be a good idea - decades after the war is over - to finally bury the hatchet on POWs/MIAs and allow normalized relations to move forward? Honestly - we should hold up the progress on international relations on the far reaching possiblity that 5 or 6 US soliders might be held in custody? It's a good idea because we need to promote international dialogue - not squash it. International dialogue and normalized relations are one of the best ways we have to prevent terrorism. I don't think anyone's afraid of the French trying to bomb LAX, nor the British, nor even Germany - because of our good standing with those countries.

No perfect human has ever been elected president. No perfect human will be elected president. In our shining information age we have access to a completely overwhelming amount of personal detail on every individual - particularly those running for public office. I'm not saying the bar has been lowered - I'm saying that the bar was always lower - but we lived in ignorant bliss that saints and martyrs were representing our interests in Washington, DC. Because of our new information age that bar is being raised - for the betterment of us all.

So what's a person to think? Perhaps a person is to think that each candidate represents a myriad of viewpoints on a myriad of issues - and I'm sure there's bad choices and controvertial choices in all of their histories - will you be able to discover them all before the election?

[Deep Sea]

Hmmmm. I always thought he was a war hero who testified about the war before congress.

That's what the media led us to believe, was it not? I wonder if there are any politicians who try to hide the deeds of their political past. I don't think so. Do you Benzo?

[Gene DeMambro]

Haven't seen any Newsmax articles opposing John McCain's support of normalization of US ties with Vietnam....

Gene

[benzocaine]

wonder if there are any politicians who try to hide the deeds of their political past. I don't think so. Do you Benzo?

Hell no!!!

But it makes you think... haven't we all done things we regret? Hind sight is 20 20.

[Deep Sea]

It is not possible all the things that were said about Kerry in that news article. I was absolutely stunned and just don't believe it! Kerry is the man! He is on his way to win the hearts and minds of Americans everywhere to become the next president of the United States!!!

[Panther]

It is the job of a solider to follow orders. I doubt that soliders were told to brutilize civilians - yet under the pressure and strain of that war many, many war crimes were committed. Kerry, instead of keeping silent on these atrocities chose to speak out about them.

{Emphasis added}

I disagree with that statement. In fact, I want proof that there were "many, many war crimes... committed" by US soldiers. There are atrocities in any war. There is collateral damage in any war. There are times of survival that call for extreme measures in any war. I don't believe that you can prove that there were any more of them in this war than in any other war... And I don't believe that you can prove that the U.S. soldiers in Nam (with a few notable exceptions, which were brought to justice... sometimes unjustly because of the overzealous nature of the times) were/are guilty of "many, many war crimes". I would really like to see definitive proof that Kerry's stories are true. I think they're more of the hollywood anti-U.S. propaganda image of what the Viet Nam war was like and how U.S. soldiers acted during that war. For the record, most of the Vets I know are decent, honorable, caring, honest people. (there are bad apples in every group, whether Vets, martial artists, doctors, engineers, you name it)

My understanding of the 60's is that many people picked up the label of "communist" because they couldn't agree with the way democracy was purportedly being "promoted" around the world through police-action warfare. Today - many of those folks would probably have picked up a "libertarian" label or even a "green party" one.

No, communists are communists... then and now. Perhaps having a "green" label somehow disguises any other political beliefs, but for the most part, those at the top of the "greens" are really watermelons... Green on the outside and red on the inside. I sincerely doubt that those who fall into the communist/socialist lockstep would go along with a truly Libertarian political belief.

And, as is mentioned in the article, why would it be a good idea - decades after the war is over - to finally bury the hatchet on POWs/MIAs and allow normalized relations to move forward? Honestly - we should hold up the progress on international relations on the far reaching possiblity that 5 or 6 US soliders might be held in custody?

Because we don't leave our people behind. Ask any person in the U.S. military and they'll tell you the same thing. And since the push by the Kerrys and the McCains and others to "normalize" relations... we still get a "trickle" of "newly found bones" from Nam. You just don't hear about it anymore. I ride with some Nam Vets and they stay up on it. The info that some of these guys have about this stuff is pretty sickening. One guy told me that he's seen reports that the "newly found bones" were consistent with someone that had only died within the last 5-10 years... Hmmmmm... No one still being held captive, riiiiiight. These vets also think (across the board, from the ones that I've talked with) that Hanoi Jane should be tried and shot for treason. I happen to agree with them. That wasn't "making a political statement", that was "aiding and abetting the enemy"... == TREASON.

So what's a person to think? Perhaps a person is to think that each candidate represents a myriad of viewpoints on a myriad of issues - and I'm sure there's bad choices and controvertial choices in all of their histories - will you be able to discover them all before the election?

Again, in the last NH debate, Kerry mentioned "Vets throwing away their medals". He maintained for years the illusion that he'd thrown his medals away with that group. He didn't. It was a big lie. He had to admit it later when the medals turned up on his office wall. So, did he have the convictions of his beliefs then, or has this just been one big ong political BS fest from him?

And I'm not a fan of John McCain either...

[benzocaine]

And I'm not a fan of John McCain either ...

Why?

I like him a ton better than Gee Dubahyuh. What's wrong with a little campaighn reform?? I think it would be great to get special interests out of the campaighn business.

[Deep Sea]

I was fortunate enought to have lived through the 60s and 70s as a teen and young adult.

There are atrocities in any war.

If you want to see atrocities, just look at what he Japanese did to captured POWs AND to the rest of the Asian world up until their defeat.

Actually, the History Channel gave a presentation of just that topic last evening, hence prompting me to respond. During the viewing of the rape of Asia and the treatment of American POWs by the japs is when I began thinking that, somehow, two nukes were not enough.

Atrocities by the US in Vietnam? There were sporadic accounts by individuals and individual groups, accounts for which a country itself should not be scorned. However, all one has to do is look at other countries whose atrocity factories are sponsored and run by their governments. The US is a real pussy when it comes to atrocities.

Most of those against the war were high or tripping-out most of the time, ignorant, just plain chicken, couldn't give up getting into everyone else's pants, or were ignorant college kids who got sucked into campus mob mentalities. one or all the above, and more were the face of the scared America. And then there were race riots. That's what I refer to when you see my words about my car getting stoned as the first stages of [almost] getting torched, etc.

That particular period was not a pretty period in US history, granted. But we learned and we grew, we got over it, and we got smarter and wiser from it all.

But the culture that burned and spat on the American flag and turned their backside to this country, such as hj who gave aid and comfort to the enemy with American POWs at their feet, were a viewport into the dark hole of hell, and are a discrace to MY country.

for the betterment of us all.

Do Red China or North Korea, or muslims think that way? sh!t they'll blow this place to smithereens and/or destroy it economically from without or within the first opportunity.

Just close your eyes, click your heels, and keep repeating "There's no place like home."

There were many things

[Panther]

And I'm not a fan of John McCain either ...

Why?

I disagree with him. The comment was to point out that I'm an "Equal Opportunity Politician Hater"... Demopublicans or Republicrats... Truth is that only a handful don't get my label of "LegisTraitor".

I like him a ton better than Gee Dubahyuh.

That's an opinion. Rating the President against McCain isn't important. I don't agree with the legislation that the current President has signed and I'm not a big fan of his either...

What's wrong with a little campaighn reform?? I think it would be great to get special interests out of the campaighn business.

If that was what "campaign finance reform" DID, that'd be one thing. But it isn't. Please go and read the legislation. It could better be called "the Incumbant Protection Act" and much more accurately called the "Only the mainstream big media and hollywood types have First Amendment Rights during elections" law. Biggest, but not the only, problem with it is that little jackboot placed squarely on all of our First Amendment Right... especially the Constitutionally recognized (and now stomped on Right) to criticize the Government!

PS: The only "h" in campaign is "hot air"! <- smiley captioned for the humor impaired. Comment made out of humor and irony and not meant to be any criticism of spelling since my spelling is often incorrect as well...

[Arnisador84]

Yes in fact, there were many war crimes committed by U.S. soldiers. There were many war crimes committed by the Vietcong as well. There is no way to fight against such a vicious and resourceful enemy without resorting to some of the same atrocious behaviors. Almost all of what the soldiers did in that war cannot be held against them considering the circumstances. Vietnam Not all the soldiers resorted to war crimes, but it wasn't unheard of.

As for bringing the all vets guilty of war crimes to justice? No. I know of a public school teacher in my town who was a headhunter in Vietnam. He would showup at base for rations and supplies, and go back into the jungle. He did all kinds of horrible things in the war, but he was a successful soldier, and no one was going to prosecute him for what he did because he was very good at killing the enemy. Now he is a productive citizen, a great teacher, and one of the most polite people you will ever meet.

My uncle was a helicopter gunner in Vietnam. During the war, he visited a cavalry base. Surrounding the base were the heads of Vietcong on pikes, Lord of the Flies style. Apocalypse Now may have overstated the insanity of the cavalry during the war, but they weren't completely off base. Do you think the entire outfit was going to be prosecuted for such a disgusting gesture. Nope.

"War is Hell" -Sherman (paraphrased quote)

My point is, Kerry is a veteran of this war. How can anyone live through such an experience and still want to advocate the war? It wasn't even our war in the first place. The French tried putting their boot down, and their foreign legion was slaughtered. We jumped in to try and stop communism, and fought harder than the South Vietnamese. After living through such hardship, I don't see how anyone can be angry at Kerry for possibly being a little extreme in his pursuit of resisting the war. Feelings of large scale exploitation can cause someone to react in such a manner.

In short: I don't care if every word of that article is the absoloute and undeniable truth--I does not lesson my esteem for Kerry.
________________________
Andrew Heuett

[benzocaine]

Seems like a lot of people like Kerry.. or want Bush gone? For Tuesday's voters, there was anger at Bush, reflected in exit polls conducted for NBC News and other news organizations. “Anybody but Bush,” said Charles Edwards, 50, of Falls Church, Va., who decided to vote for Kerry as he entered his voting booth. “I’d vote for the devil.”

I made it to the primary yesterday.

Things look good for Kerry. I can hardly wait to see what kind of stuff the Republican campaighn machine will dig up / create about him.

I remember when he was in competition for his senate seat against Govoner Weld.(I liked Weld. Funny how Massachusetts picks a republican to handle local matters but picks Democrats to represent their national interest.) If I recall a story was "leaked" questioning Kerry's war hero status.

[Panther]

Things look good for Kerry. I can hardly wait to see what kind of stuff the Republican campaighn machine will dig up / create about him.

Won't take much digging, that ground is pretty fertile. I would disagree about "creating" anything about him. This stuff gets shaken out pretty well and if something is false, the people wouldn't stand for it. Naturally, the way the media has already picked the next President, any actual "dirt" will probably get swept under the rug.

Funny how Massachusetts picks a republican to handle local matters but picks Democrats to represent their national interest.

I live here... I'm not from here, but I've lived here most of my life now... The politics in this State is really effed up. People will say they hate Kennedy, but they'll vote for him anyway for one reason or another... I've heard people who say they can't stand him rationalize their vote for him with sympathy for the "Kennedy curse" or by pointing out all the "pork" he gets us! (Grrrrr...) I've heard similar comments about Kerry including one woman who said she was going to vote for him "because he's just sooooo much more handsome than Bush."