This is as much for my personal reference as discussion. I'm creating a log of if...then reactions that are hardwired into humans. The reactions listed below are the most probable - not all need to happen, but there is a high percentage that at least one will.
1. If you flick at someone's eyes then they will...
a. close their eyes
b. pull their head backwards
c. turn their head to the side
2. If you grab a man's groin he will....
a. push his hips backwards to get away from the grip
b. grab the wrist/arm/hand of the hand grabbing his package
3. If you grab a person's throat (and I mean really grab) they will...
a. grab your hand(s) with at least one of their own
4. Step on someone's foot they will
a. always try to lift their foot up before they try to pull it back
5.
If...then
Moderator: Available
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Stryke
gouge the neck and they will turn head away , pain compliance bending fingers wrists etc , up on there toes or down on there knees , Spitting in there face most of the time gets a flinch backwards ...
Ill try remeber some more but theres a start ,
they joy with this stuff really though is the pre ordained grabbing , if you can make your opponent do what you want you can have the pre rehearsed counter , hence the importance of good pre arranged counters
Ill try remeber some more but theres a start ,
they joy with this stuff really though is the pre ordained grabbing , if you can make your opponent do what you want you can have the pre rehearsed counter , hence the importance of good pre arranged counters
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Guest
natural responses to threats
low kick or knee(Front) : defender twists sideways to protect groin
or retreats and bends at waist (lowers head)
or reaches down with hands and bends
at waist(lowers head)
at the head: finch arms up hands forward while
going backwards
or arms up elbows out and duck down and
away
contact to side of neck: head bends towards direction
of the strike shoulder rises chin comes forward.
reaction to push:push back in same manner, meet the force
reaction to joint locks: move away from them
Reaction to flesh squeeze: inhale and rise out of base.
reaction to finger in eye socket, Jump back and bend at waist or drop to all fours
reaction to pull: pull in opposite direction
reaction to circular force at head. hands come up and body ducks down and away at 45 dedgrees
reaction to circular force directed at lower body . head and hands come down or just turns away exposing back.
Lots of set ups in out hardwired responses.
Laird
low kick or knee(Front) : defender twists sideways to protect groin
or retreats and bends at waist (lowers head)
or reaches down with hands and bends
at waist(lowers head)
at the head: finch arms up hands forward while
going backwards
or arms up elbows out and duck down and
away
contact to side of neck: head bends towards direction
of the strike shoulder rises chin comes forward.
reaction to push:push back in same manner, meet the force
reaction to joint locks: move away from them
Reaction to flesh squeeze: inhale and rise out of base.
reaction to finger in eye socket, Jump back and bend at waist or drop to all fours
reaction to pull: pull in opposite direction
reaction to circular force at head. hands come up and body ducks down and away at 45 dedgrees
reaction to circular force directed at lower body . head and hands come down or just turns away exposing back.
Lots of set ups in out hardwired responses.
Laird
Dana
Very interesting list.
What are you planning on doing with it?
Could have some real value in terms of a more accurate list of "standard" response to specific actions.
-Jab toward the eyes--duck of the head away/under jab
-Grab toward the groin--already moving away if seen--jumping the second its felt.
-Throat--depends on the pressure--hard clench of hand almost always a "reflex" grab to the arm/hand thats grabbing you.
Very interesting list.
What are you planning on doing with it?
Could have some real value in terms of a more accurate list of "standard" response to specific actions.
-Jab toward the eyes--duck of the head away/under jab
-Grab toward the groin--already moving away if seen--jumping the second its felt.
-Throat--depends on the pressure--hard clench of hand almost always a "reflex" grab to the arm/hand thats grabbing you.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
If there are high percentage plays I'd like to be able to use them. Hardwired reactions are fascinating. they may not be 100%, but even 70% would be an incredible advantage.
Also these go beyond "flinches" the idea of grabbing something on someone and KNOWING that they will grab you is incredibly powerful. Not only for kill or be killed situations but also for compliance/control situations.
Dana
Also these go beyond "flinches" the idea of grabbing something on someone and KNOWING that they will grab you is incredibly powerful. Not only for kill or be killed situations but also for compliance/control situations.
Dana
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Stryke
Im quite surprised / dissapointed more people havent added there thoughts to this thread .
Dana I`m assuming youve looked at the Bubishi , it`s my main reference of the if/then scenario , Patrick Mcarthys work no doubt flows from his research and translation of it
your correct they go beyond flinches , but there really the next step after flinches IMHO , great stuff
Dana I`m assuming youve looked at the Bubishi , it`s my main reference of the if/then scenario , Patrick Mcarthys work no doubt flows from his research and translation of it
your correct they go beyond flinches , but there really the next step after flinches IMHO , great stuff
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Stryke
H.A.P.V
hapv stands for habitual acts of physical violence , there are 36 attacks recognised in old karate , which come under this heading , of these there are 72 variations , and against those there 108 defensive principles , Training deals with the initial confrontation of an initial act (not its neutrilisation), how to develop simple weapons (e.g. hands and feet) , stances and flexibility , Other areas of study are strength , endurance , and competence . Training moves forward again when the student begins to study human anatomy and the bodys weaknesses , in this way the corecct form of attack on a given point can be determined ; hard (strike) or soft (wrestling, crushing , grinding).
hapv stands for habitual acts of physical violence , there are 36 attacks recognised in old karate , which come under this heading , of these there are 72 variations , and against those there 108 defensive principles , Training deals with the initial confrontation of an initial act (not its neutrilisation), how to develop simple weapons (e.g. hands and feet) , stances and flexibility , Other areas of study are strength , endurance , and competence . Training moves forward again when the student begins to study human anatomy and the bodys weaknesses , in this way the corecct form of attack on a given point can be determined ; hard (strike) or soft (wrestling, crushing , grinding).
There's that mysticalnumber again: 108!
Or is it 180? Anyway, the classical/traditional/historical references as mentioned,particularly from the Bubishi, are not to be ignored or brushed aside,but studied and enhanced if one can do it. The beauty of Okinawan Karate(all styles and systems of ancient lineage basically) is that it can be used in modern times for self-defense,as most of you already know. The attempts to "Japanize" Okinawan Karate needs to be recognized by those who do not know about this process,which, unfortunately, includes a huge number of karate enthusiasts, practitioners, and general public.Keep up the good work. Halford at http://arnis.homestead.com
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Now if you add weapons
I'm admittedly not a knife wielding master. I mostly train empty handed and some firearm. Since I've got a rack of chef knives in the kitchen I should probably train with those instead of folders. I often don't carry a folder because I don't have a good way of getting to it.
However that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the if...then scenarios of weapons training and weapons vs empty hands. Some of this is covered in basic Krav Maga -
If they put the knife against your throat - they're trying to intimidate you - they want something from you and are willing to engage you
If they stand away from you and brandish the knife - they want something from you but may not want to engage you.
Same rules apply for guns.
However that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the if...then scenarios of weapons training and weapons vs empty hands. Some of this is covered in basic Krav Maga -
If they put the knife against your throat - they're trying to intimidate you - they want something from you and are willing to engage you
If they stand away from you and brandish the knife - they want something from you but may not want to engage you.
Same rules apply for guns.
Did you show compassion today?
Dana:
My thinking is simply that weapons add a complete layer of both threat and defence upon the self-defense scenario.
1: You're attacked by empty hand, you defend empty hand.
2: You're attacked by weapon, you defend empty hand.
3: You're attacked with weapon, you defend with weapon.
4: You're attacked by empty hand, you defend with weapon.
Most of us are struggling and training just to accomplish #1, in a controlled environment. I think that familiarity with and handling of some basic weapons is a good thing for any martial artist: short club, long club, knife, in that order.
Long ago (ok, 4 years) I started bringing foam clubs to use in Kanshiwa Bunkai because even I as a white belt could see that defenders were not "seeing" the club, just the arm and hand.
Amazing how easy to bop the defender in the head!
They were moving in, head held high, totally forgetting that swinging a club is not a stiff-arm technique but a whipping wrist-pivot instead.
It was SO easy to whack them on the head!
That's just a simple example.
Knives...GUNS?
Whole new paradigms of self defense, in my opinion, which is of course limited by experience.
Over on another thread Mr. Castanet said that Mr. Maloney could relieve you of your gun, and possibly some fingers too, before you could see him even move.
That's the level of expertise, practice and confidence I think a person needs to be at to realistically teach and practice weapons vs. empty hand stuff.
But you know, some water pistols and regular practice might be a great thing in the Dojo. I'd be all for it.
NM
My thinking is simply that weapons add a complete layer of both threat and defence upon the self-defense scenario.
1: You're attacked by empty hand, you defend empty hand.
2: You're attacked by weapon, you defend empty hand.
3: You're attacked with weapon, you defend with weapon.
4: You're attacked by empty hand, you defend with weapon.
Most of us are struggling and training just to accomplish #1, in a controlled environment. I think that familiarity with and handling of some basic weapons is a good thing for any martial artist: short club, long club, knife, in that order.
Long ago (ok, 4 years) I started bringing foam clubs to use in Kanshiwa Bunkai because even I as a white belt could see that defenders were not "seeing" the club, just the arm and hand.
Amazing how easy to bop the defender in the head!
They were moving in, head held high, totally forgetting that swinging a club is not a stiff-arm technique but a whipping wrist-pivot instead.
It was SO easy to whack them on the head!
That's just a simple example.
Knives...GUNS?
Whole new paradigms of self defense, in my opinion, which is of course limited by experience.
Over on another thread Mr. Castanet said that Mr. Maloney could relieve you of your gun, and possibly some fingers too, before you could see him even move.
That's the level of expertise, practice and confidence I think a person needs to be at to realistically teach and practice weapons vs. empty hand stuff.
But you know, some water pistols and regular practice might be a great thing in the Dojo. I'd be all for it.
NM
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
NM said: "But you know, some water pistols and regular practice might be a great thing in the Dojo. I'd be all for it."
Good idea. I use something called a soft air pellet gun. It fires a 6mm plastic pellet about 200 fps... fast enough to really sting, but won't break the skin. (Caution: you need to use eye protection.) When I had them at summer camp in 2002, Roy Bedard was so good at disarming me (OUCH!) that I could not shoot him. Careful... fingers and thumbs will break in the excitement.
The pellet guns look and feel like the real thing. If you do a disarm incorrectly you will get stung. It really improves your performance and drives home the need to get off line. Some people do not understand the need to blade the body, and one sting solves that problem safely.
I demoed my ideas to the USMC Martial Arts Center of Excellence @ Quantico last fall and they were so taken by it they purchased 25 of the pistols and made it part of the training for their Instructor/Trainers. That is a great endorsement and played a part in being made part of their HQ team.
Just to simplify things though, all you need to do is have a wooden replica. I tape over the finger hole to prevent accidental breaks. Have the firearm holder say bang when you go for the weapon, and 99.99% of the time you will be in control before a sound is uttered.
By the way, Maloney sensei's video of handgun disarms is available from Mattson sensei's website.
Rich
Good idea. I use something called a soft air pellet gun. It fires a 6mm plastic pellet about 200 fps... fast enough to really sting, but won't break the skin. (Caution: you need to use eye protection.) When I had them at summer camp in 2002, Roy Bedard was so good at disarming me (OUCH!) that I could not shoot him. Careful... fingers and thumbs will break in the excitement.
The pellet guns look and feel like the real thing. If you do a disarm incorrectly you will get stung. It really improves your performance and drives home the need to get off line. Some people do not understand the need to blade the body, and one sting solves that problem safely.
I demoed my ideas to the USMC Martial Arts Center of Excellence @ Quantico last fall and they were so taken by it they purchased 25 of the pistols and made it part of the training for their Instructor/Trainers. That is a great endorsement and played a part in being made part of their HQ team.
Just to simplify things though, all you need to do is have a wooden replica. I tape over the finger hole to prevent accidental breaks. Have the firearm holder say bang when you go for the weapon, and 99.99% of the time you will be in control before a sound is uttered.
By the way, Maloney sensei's video of handgun disarms is available from Mattson sensei's website.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
