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 Post subject: Legal knife?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:51 am 
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Quote:
Chapter 269: Section 10. Carrying dangerous weapons...

(b) Whoever, except as provided by law, carries on his
person, or carries on his person or under his control
in a vehicle, any stiletto, dagger or a device or case
which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn
at a locked position.


1. The Emerson Folding Karambit features the patented wave-opening device. As you already know this makes it the fastest opening and deploying knife in the world. Because of this fact it is virtually the same as pulling a fixed blade knife out of your pocket.Image

SPECS
· Overall Length: 6.80 in. · Blade Length: 2.60 in. · Handle Length: 5.65 in. · Weight: 3.6 in. · Blade Finish: Hand Ground Satin

Is this knife legal or not in Mass?

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 Post subject: Re: Legal knife?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:20 pm 
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Posts: 493
Location: Framingham, MA USA
Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
Chapter 269: Section 10. Carrying dangerous weapons...

(b) Whoever, except as provided by law, carries on his
person, or carries on his person or under his control
in a vehicle, any stiletto, dagger or a device or case
which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn
at a locked position.


1. The Emerson Folding Karambit features the patented wave-opening device. As you already know this makes it the fastest opening and deploying knife in the world. Because of this fact it is virtually the same as pulling a fixed blade knife out of your pocket.Image

SPECS
· Overall Length: 6.80 in. · Blade Length: 2.60 in. · Handle Length: 5.65 in. · Weight: 3.6 in. · Blade Finish: Hand Ground Satin

Is this knife legal or not in Mass?


Good questions Van;

I have heard of the knife and have seen it in Blade. I believe that the statute was drafted drafted primariliy for spring loaded knives that pop right out of the case or switch blade folders. However, the courts could decide that if the knife has any mechanism which moves the blade into a locked position upon withdrawal, then it could qualify as a prohibited instrument.

If the blade has more than one ground blade edge, it is prohibited.

The next problem is whether or not the knife and the design is used for purposes other than for human or animal defense. Can it shuck oysters? Can it be used for hunting and fishing.

The purpose of the knife is as important as the locking mechanism when drawn.

Recent cases have held that these statutes are to be strictly interpreted especially when they are vague or ambiguos. They may not be used for extreme prosecutorial purposes.

The case of the prostitute, who, when arrested concealed a 6 inch steak knife in her bra, and who admitted that she carried it for self-defense. (her purpose was limited to cutting a human).

In another case, a prostitute, arrested with a search made of her large handbag rervealing a large surrated blade knife which she claimed she used to make her lunch. The court held that this was not a dangerous weapon.

And in my oft quoted Commonwealth v. Steve Miller, his 6 inch folder was not to be interpreted as a prohibited "Dirk Knife", with the reasoning being that it did not resemble the classical dirk, and was folded in his pocket when he produced it upon search.

The current trend of the courts is to be reasonable when testing the standards.

Even if the Emerson was found to be out side of the definition of what was a drawn locked blade, and therefore not automatically a dangerous weapon, it could be ruled a dangerous weapon if it had not qualified as useful in any other application, than for defense.

When you refer to a "wave opening" I assume that you can activate release by mechanism of having some sort of loose blade, with inertia opening and then locking.

I hope that I have at least covered some of the problems that arise if you carry this knife.

Alan K

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 Post subject: Legal Knife?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:57 pm 
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Location: Framingham, MA USA
Van:

Here is an abstract from the Stephen Miller case which was heard in the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court (the SJC).

Many edged weapon cases follow the reasoning in this case, and may help us on The Emerson matter.

The purpose appears to be an educational process and is far more eloquent than my own ability.

Here it isThe defendant’s knife is a heavy , oversized version of a folding pocket knife or jack-knife. Pursuant to a lawful search, conducted for reasons not relevant here, the knife was discovered in the defendant’s pocket, in the closed position. With the blade folded into the handle, , the knife is 6 ½ inches long by 1 ½ inches wide. In contrast to other quick release knives enumerated in the statute, it does not open quickly or easily. Once opened, and locked rigidly in position, it looks like a dagger. Unquestionably if it had been discovered open, in the defendant’s hand or in his pocket, it could have been deemed to be a dangerous weapon. (California case cited where blade found open in defendant’s pocket. the blade was tapered to a sharp point. Texas case cited (knife in defendant’s pocket in the locked open position, and was judged to be a dagger.

The defendant’s blade is five inches by one and one half inches, single edged and asymmetrical.
It certainly can cut and is a formidable and menacing weapon when opened , but is neither tapered nor readily adaptable (from it folded form) for use as a stabbing weapon. (see Rivens v. State 1938 Texas case (similarly shaped blade in scabbard not a dirk) It is not long enough to fit the usual definition of a dirk-like blade. We hold that this blade does not share enough of the characteristics of a stabbing weapon to be a “dirk knife” within the ambit of GL c. 269, section 10(b).

In holding this, we note that this is a close case. It is not our intention to delineate exactly what combination of characteristics defines a dirk-like blade, or state that a five inch blade can never be enough like a dirk to be proscribed (in the statute). Other characteristics, as for example, a blade tapering to a sharpened tip, may indicate that the knife in question, though shorter than a normal dirk, was indeed designed for stabbing. Ideally, the Legislature should provide more specific guidelines.

Absent more specific statutory criteria, the defendant’s motion for a required finding of not guilty should have been allowed for lack of showing that the defendant’s knife sufficiently fits the recognized definition of a dirk-knife. Judgement reversed, Verdict set aside Judgment for Defendant

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:18 pm 
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why, in your opinion, would this license not apply to a knife that can be used for self-defense?

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 Post subject: Knife statute
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:46 pm 
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Location: Framingham, MA USA
Good question George:

You might reason that with the strict and detailed process for a gun carrying process, and with the gun being so potent as a weapon, that holders of these permits should qualify as an exeption.

The problem is that the statues are entirely different and exclusive even if they are under the same Chapter of the Massachusetts law. The Courts have already ruled that the statutes will be strictly interpreted (as in the Miller and other cases.)

The weapons and knife section has been sternly criticized as lacking definition, and as you well know, in the early 1970's martial arts implements were included with saps, billy clubs and other bad guy weapons with out even caring about the Martial Arts.

You and I discussed this several times in those days, but as you pointed out, we had no adhesive group to Lobby or even complain, partially due to the fear of imposing licensing laws to all dojo.

The statute has not had any major revision in all these years despite judicial scorn.

It would be nice if our ancient Aisian weapons could be used for dojo or tournament purposes and the kids love them.

Alan K

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 Post subject: Alan ?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:10 pm 
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... p?t=281642

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 Post subject: Boston Knife Ban
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:31 pm 
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Location: Framingham, MA USA
Sorry for not responding sooner to Van's post on the possibility of a knife by the City of Boston.

I doubt the validity and the constitutionality of a City Ordinance, when there is already proper jurisdiction of the subject matter in MGL Chapter 269 (10B).

Does anyone want to be the test case?

I wonder if this is not an erronious interpretaion of the foregoing statute, wherein knives with blades over 2.5 inches are illegal if capable of being ejected from a handle or scabbard?

If that source can supply the cited reference, please post.

Alan K

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