zen anyone?

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:40 pm

hi all;
i just wanted to throw a question out to everyone.
i am looking to find out how many martial artists out there are also interested in meditation or zen. are you active in this persuit? would you be interested in a program if it was intergrated into your martial art in your dojo?

Hoshin
~~~~~

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:17 pm

Meditation isn't my cup of tea (pun intended)... but the moving meditaion I get from kata seems to work for me. Kata quiets the mind very well. I don't disrespect anyone who practices meditation. Someday when I have free time

I'll maybee pursue this aspect of Karate.

I do admit to meditation when I am tired. If I am in the middle of working many 12 hour shifts I'll take a couple minutes to deep breathe meditate. It seems to make me feel better.

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:32 pm

I'm a Christian karateka and have to exclude any meditation that isn't on the 'word of God.'

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:38 pm

I'm a Christian karateka and have to exclude any meditation that isn't on the 'word of God.'

I'll have to dig out my sources, but there is a strong Christian tradition of zen-like practice. I have heard it said that Zen or Chan Buddhism is a method of practicing Buddhism and there can be a Zen practice of Christianity. Personally, I think Jesus was closer to a Zen-like practice than many realize.

M. Keller · Post by **M. Keller** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:42 pm

I don't mean to knock anyone's religion....BUT...

The parallels between the MA instructor who won't let someone cross train and the religion that won't allow you to dabble with mind-quieting exercises is pretty striking.

Any institution that values itself should be confident enough to allow its members to look what else is out there, if only to broaden one's horizons.

Send hatemail to...

Mike

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:30 pm

I understand and respect your opinions; the Christian faith teaches that life has absolutes. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. Life isn’t relative to the individual or their experience and therefore other faiths and religions miss the mark and miss it completely. The fulfillment of life for the Christian is found in the direct experience of Christ as savoir and this is a gift of God Himself, no one can be closer to God by anyother means and all are equally close to God in Jesus Christ.

The Zen like study and practice you mention is foreign to Judaism and most of the early church. This Zen like practice was picked up by Egyptian hermits from the pagan faith and religion of that area. The Zen like study and practice was condemned by many church council, it often lead to ‘spiritual’ gymnastics, resembling yoga of Hinduism or another heresy called ‘quietism.’ This is all foreign to Judaism, the early Christian Church and the Bible.

Again, I respect your opinions and would never hate you for them.

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:39 pm

Other things to keep in mind:

Zen does not believe in a personal God, Christ did and taught this.

Buddha believed in many Gods, Jesus believe and taught about one God. (won't get into the trinity.)

Some parallels exist in the very basic teachings of both, but to gloss over the key differences is error. Zen teaches you work out your own salvation, Christianity teaches Christ is savior.

Zen teaches karma. Christians do not believe in karma.

Christian virtue lays in serving humanity, sharing the Gospel whereas Zen believes in becoming detached from the world and one's fundamental nature.

Just off the top of my head....

karateka

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:50 pm

Zen believes in becoming detached from the world and one's fundamental nature.

Ahhhh but I see the similarity here as well. The Bible teaches we have a currupt nature ever since the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and that we must die to our flesh. Also the bible says be ye not part of the world but seperate.

Not in anyway knocking you or your faith though.

Happy Easter.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:34 pm

Quote
"Zen does not believe in a personal God, Christ did and taught this.

Buddha believed in many Gods, Jesus believe and taught about one God. (won't get into the trinity.)"

Let's not confuse Zen with what the Buddha taught. The Buddha did not actually say that there was No God, all he said to his disciples was that there priority should be to reach enlightenment.
That term is often referred to as Nirvana, there is a Christian concept in Greek " Metanoae" (sp) which means pretty much the same thing

Ignatius Loyalla, the founder of the Jesuits used to meditate every day, his meditation was to remember his day fully, every evening..there are lots of meditation exercises, and as we are made in God's likeness, and he is love ....I really don't think that he would be too bothered if you tried them

The Christian religion ( something that I study ) has many contradictions in it, and many misleading things imported by the catholic church. The New Testament is written back to front the oldest historical document being the letters of Paul. .......and don't forget Paul never actually met Jesus........Don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to diss your faith. It's just that there is a heck ov a lot of stuff in the Bible that can be read in different ways.........
By the way Easter is named after the pagan God " Astora"
Goddess of the springtime

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:59 pm

Hey Jorvic. I believe that Easter was also how the Pagans celibrated the Spring Equinox(sp?) and X mas the Winter Equinox.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:40 pm

.... That is right ( My Dad always told me never to talk, politics, religion or sport

)....how bad am I

......But yeh that's right it is the spring equinox

.......Christmas was celebrated on 6th January the day when Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist..but pope liberius in 364 ( or thereabouts

) decided that Christmas should be when it is? ........well

I'll just say this about religion ( Christian Religion....it takes a good few years to learn math, chem or medicine, why should you think that it would be any easier to study religion??.....many are called, but few are chosen.....least that you can do is learn a little Greek or Latin

, and read the scriptures,

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Zen...no thank you.

I think we will agree to disagree and with that I'll bow (rei) out of this topic.

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:35 pm

i see i have shaken the bee's nest.
HOW SAD IT IS THAT PEOPLE DEBATE OVER THINGS THEY NO NOTHING OF!!!
i guess the answer to my question is ...
that people dont really know what Zen is, and therefor fill their gap of knowledge with what they do know.

i value all of the posters remarks but you argue over apples and oranges when the subject is meat and potatos.

Hoshin
~~~~~~

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:36 pm

HOW SAD IT IS THAT PEOPLE DEBATE OVER THINGS THEY NO NOTHING OF!!!

Debate?

I don't see any debate here. All I see are some people pointing out some similarities between Christianity and Zen.(there a big differences too) I also see a Christian saying he doesn't want to go off the straight and narrow path he is on. I respect that, and I think everyone else here does.

i am looking to find out how many martial artists out there are also interested in meditation or zen. are you active in this persuit?

i guess the answer to my question is ...
that people dont really know what Zen is, and therefor fill their gap of knowledge with what they do know.

NEB · Post by **NEB** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:35 pm

Buddha believed in many Gods, Jesus believe and taught about one God.

I have heard the mention of various "Bodhitsatvas (sp?)" in Buddhism. These, however, are not the equivalent of actual multiple gods. Rather, they represent various aspects of virtue that can be attained by everyone. To wit, Kwan Yin, the Bodhitsatva of compassion, is well represented by paintings and statues, etc.

What I have also heard is that Ch'an/Zen Buddhism is an attempt to reform the religion and get back to a more austere and basic understanding. And, that there was a meeting-of-the-minds between Ch'an masters and Taoist masters in China at the time.

This is what I find the most fascinationg about it: The inward search for what is non-dualistic. That part of Zen that resembles what the teachers of Advaita also speak about.

nb