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benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Jorvic.. to quote myself in context
Does any one else feel these emotions when viewing what has happened to our fellow Americans in Iraq??

When I see things like this it puts a different face on those people. And I am sorry but at this moment I'd just as soon see the entire region turned into a sheet of glass. Or see that guy in the bottom with the big grin?? I hate him. Never met him, but I hate him. See how the crowd is estatic , and see how the burnt body is hung from the bridge.
It's not that I really want to really see that happen. There are to many inocent lives involved. It's a shame that it isn't as easy as pushing a button. But it isn't that simple huh?

So there's a little insight into my insight Jorvic. I was merely throwing my feeings into cyber space. There are many more I could toss out there but I'll digress for now.
Doug Erickson
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Post by Doug Erickson »

I see you have the same wisdom and insight as your President :roll:


Is there an emoticon for my eyes rolling all the way out of my head and onto the floor?

Whatever your opinion of Bush, he has committed thousands of soldiers and billions of dollars to removing a psychotic, murderous despot and reconstructing the country after the damage done during that effort and during Saddam's regime. How that indicates a desire to "turn the whole region into a sheet of glass" is a logical leap that I'm just not following.

-Doug
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Doug
Read Ben's first post :roll: :lol: :roll:
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Jorvic,

I think the point Doug makes is that GW Bush doesn't want to make Iraq a sheet of glass. He wants to make it a better place. Maybee you are missing the point. :lol:
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Seen One Killer, Seen 'em All?

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

It seems there is a lot GW does not get.......

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... t-opinions

Bush's lumping together of dissimilar militant groups is a dangerous mistake.
By Adam Shatz
"The violence we are seeing in Iraq is familiar," President Bush argued, with seductive simplicity, in Tuesday's press conference.

"The terrorist who takes hostages or plants a roadside bomb near Baghdad," he continued, "is serving the same ideology of murder that kills innocent people on trains in Madrid and murders children on buses in Jerusalem and blows up a nightclub in Bali and cuts the throat of a young reporter for being a Jew. We've seen the same ideology of murder in the killing of 241 Marines in Beirut, the first attack on the World Trade Center, in the destruction of two embassies in Africa, in the attack on the U.S.S. Cole and in the merciless horror inflicted upon thousands of innocent men and women and children on Sept. 11, 2001."

Bush's argument boiled down to this: A terrorist is a terrorist, whether he is a member of Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas or of an Iraqi resistance organization fighting American troops — and, whatever their differences, they are all inflamed by the "same ideology of murder." Intended as an expression of "moral clarity," it's likely to convince many Americans. But does it hold up? Are such groups all the same, and are they actually driven by an identical ideology?

Let's start by defining terrorism. It's a notoriously slippery concept: As the cliche goes, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. But the most widely accepted and neutral definition is that it is violence against civilians to achieve political aims.

Do all of Bush's examples pass the test? Certainly the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and in Bali and Madrid, do. But what about the bombing of the Marine barracks in 1983 by Lebanese militants belonging to Islamic Jihad (the precursor to Hezbollah), which Bush also referred to? However appalling, this was directed at a military target in the midst of a civil war. The Marines landed in Beirut as peacekeepers, but they came in the aftermath of Israel's invasion and were perceived by the Shiite community as intervening on the side of Israel and its Christian Falangist allies.

Likewise, however much one deplores the roadside bombings of American soldiers by Iraqi fighters, such acts scarcely qualify as "terrorism." The aim is not to kill American civilians but to target soldiers and thereby drive the American army out of Iraq. Whether you support it or oppose it, it's not terrorism; it's resistance to occupation.

As for the horrifying suicide attacks by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade on buses and in restaurants in Israel, they certainly qualify as terrorism — i.e., violence against civilians to achieve political aims. But it is unfair (and misleading) to say that these attacks are motivated by a diffuse "ideology of murder." In fact, they're motivated by long-simmering nationalist rage against a 37-year-old occupation that shows few signs of abating; despite the similarity in methods, they are distinct from Al Qaeda's attacks on trains and resorts. This does not excuse such attacks, but it does distinguish them.

Unlike Al Qaeda, moreover, Palestinian militants are not at war with the U.S. Hamas' arena of operations is limited, and so are its aims: Its struggle is with Israel, not with the West.

Giandomenico Picco, the former U.N. diplomat who helped secure the release of the Western hostages held by Shiite militants in Lebanon in the late 1980s, believes it is important to draw a careful distinction between "tactical" and "strategic" terrorism. Tactical terror, however murderous, is a means of pursuing concrete territorial goals that — whether we agree with them or not — are at least real goals. Strategic terror, by contrast, is an end in itself.

Many nationalist groups have used tactical terrorism, from Algeria's National Liberation Front to South Africa's African National Congress to the Irish Republican Army to the Irgun and Stern Gang in Palestine during the British mandate period. Once they achieved independence, these groups generally abandoned terrorism, and many former "terrorists" have become statesmen, among them Nelson Mandela (the leader of a group long classified as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department) and Menachem Begin (who, as the leader of the Irgun militia, presided over the July 22, 1946, bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem that killed 91 civilians).

Since the end of Israel's 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon four years ago, Hezbollah has largely followed this pattern. The organization now has nine deputies in the Lebanese parliament, where it has focused its efforts on improving the lives of its Shiite constituents. Although the party continues to exchange fire with Israeli soldiers on the border and to offer rhetorical and logistical support for Palestinian militants, it has not been implicated in an attack on Western civilians in more than a decade. The first Islamic cleric to denounce 9/11 was none other than Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanon's senior Shiite cleric who served as Hezbollah's spiritual guide at the time of the 1983 bombings. Like most Shiites, he loathes the Sunni fundamentalists of Al Qaeda, who in turn revile the Shiites.

Al Qaeda, by contrast, has declared war on the United States and the West, and its terrorism is strategic: not simply a means to an end but an end in itself. Its ideology is fanatical, apocalyptic and expansionist, and its goal — the restoration of an Islamic caliphate and the elimination of "Crusaders and Zionists" — is a recipe for endless war.

Far from being an expression of moral clarity, Bush's promiscuous definition of terrorism blinds us to the distinctions among groups with very different and often-clashing agendas and threatens to drag us into further unnecessary wars.

To insist upon these distinctions is not to excuse the murder of civilians, which must be condemned, or to endorse the agenda of nationalist insurgencies that use "tactical terror." Rather, it is to acknowledge that terror comes in different forms, and that in order to combat it successfully, we need to know which kind we're confronting.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Bush's argument boiled down to this: A terrorist is a terrorist, whether he is a member of Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas or of an Iraqi resistance organization fighting American troops — and, whatever their differences, they are all inflamed by the "same ideology of murder." Intended as an expression of "moral clarity," it's likely to convince many Americans. But does it hold up? Are such groups all the same, and are they actually driven by an identical ideology?
Good question.
the most widely accepted and neutral definition (of terrorism) is that it is violence against civilians to achieve political aims.
And there is your answer - with moral clarity.

Yes, you can call those that plant roadside bombs to kill troops "freedom fighters." I could even appreciate their desire not to be occupied, and admire their noble cause - even if I see them as cutting their noses off to spite their faces. But...

* Why do the "freedom fighters" hide in the homes of civilians, and in mosques? And why do they cry because their "women, children, and elderly" are subsequently in harm's way? Quick, call Aljazeera!

* Burning civilian contractors (who are there to rebuild their country), mutilating their bodies, and hanging them from a bridge in front of cheering crowds is terrorism (Fallujah). Simple...

* A cleric killing another cleric he disagrees with (al Sadr) is terrorism. It's also premeditated murder, BTW. This is a noble cause? This is the Muslim religion? This is Allah's work? Just wondering...

* Taking civilians hostage and torturing/killing/filming them is terrorism. And in my book, so is giving them an audience (the press); they become willing pawns in a devil's plan.

* Blowing yourself up in a civilian location - no matter what the cause - is terrorism. And all those associated with it - particularly those that brainwash youths into thinking they will go to a better place - are guilty, murderous scum. Associating such activity with religion is laughable to say the least. No such "religion" deserves a place in a civilized society.
To insist upon these distinctions is not to excuse the murder of civilians, which must be condemned, or to endorse the agenda of nationalist insurgencies that use "tactical terror." Rather, it is to acknowledge that terror comes in different forms, and that in order to combat it successfully, we need to know which kind we're confronting.
I'm certain these subtleties haven't escaped those who are dealing with the problem. But what is stated in a news conference for public consumption by the average citizen is necessarily made simple.

And it really is pretty simple. Killing civilians to achieve an end (short term or with no end) is murder. It is terrorism. It needn't be made more complicated if one is looking for a call to action and a reason to stay focused on a difficult cause.

I'll admit that in my younger days, I sympathized with the IRA. That was indeed tactical terrorism. But Martin Luther King once stated that if you're going to break the law to achieve an end (civil disobedience), you have a moral obligation to accept the consequences. One must not expect sympathy when the fecal material hits the rotating propeller.

- Bill
cxt
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Post by cxt »

But here is what does not track--at least I don't get it.

Prior to the invasion of Isreal by the Arab coalition Gaza was owned by and controlled by Egypt.

There seem to have been no Hamas bombers killing civilians to free themselves or obtain self rule from Egypt.

Prior to the invasion of Isreal by the Arab coalition the West Bank was owned and controlled by Jordan.

Again no mass murders to free themselves from the "yoke of Jordanian control."

Currently Palestinian "refugees" are kept in seggragated camps behind barbed wire and armed guards to keep them from mixing with the populace of either Egypt or Jordan.

Again, no bombings, no terror attacks, no demands for self rule "or else" no vows to fight to the last man women and child to reclaim lands from either former ruler.

Just does not make good sense to me.

Unless of course there are/is an active terroist movement to "free Palistine" from Egypt or Jordan.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"I'll admit that in my younger days, I sympathized with the IRA. That was indeed tactical terrorism."
So what's your problem with Iraqi's killing American contractors :? ......the ira have killed men women and children. I remmember them killing a small blonde haired boy of about 8 in Warrington, (when my son was about the same age :cry:)
CXT
Good point, don't know........ but check out this link ( and it's not anti American..far from it)
http://www.debka.com/
Something about Jordan hunting Palestinian Terrorists :roll:
You should also read this
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
Although I doubt you will.....always good to know what the other side is thinking...even if you don't agree with it :wink:
cxt
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Post by cxt »

Jorvik

Thanks--checked then out--very interesting read.

Matched it up with some other sites--some argument about what the destination for the poison and exposives was to be ie. where and upon whom they were to be used.

Something I will try and keep a closer eye on.

Again thanks.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

jorvik

Please don't take my statement out of context. Here it is in its entirety.
I'll admit that in my younger days, I sympathized with the IRA. That was indeed tactical terrorism. But Martin Luther King once stated that if you're going to break the law to achieve an end (civil disobedience), you have a moral obligation to accept the consequences. One must not expect sympathy when the fecal material hits the rotating propeller.
That's a far cry from what you are implying by quoting only the first two sentences and then asking me why I have a problem with Iraqis killing American civilian contractors.

I thought that would stir you though; emotionally hijacked you, didn't it? When it comes to terrorism, many can't see it until they are victims of it. That's my point. And terrorists shouldn't act like martyrs when they suddenly become the prey. They should see their actions for what they are - behavioral modification through atrocity. It's a "Saddam" thing...

Seems to me that the Irish are behaving rather respectably these days, no? :mrgreen:

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"I thought that would stir you though; emotionally hijacked you, didn't it?"....to be honest it didn't because that is what I thought you were trying to do :D ..but I thought that I would respond anyway :multi:
That is the problem with terrorism, they kill innocents and if they do it for long enough, they eventually get some political clout...notice that nobody calls Nelson Mandela a terrorist now :wink:
came across this interesting link ( to me at least, about Iraq :lol: )
http://www.adriangilbert.co.uk/docus/le ... ter16.html
remember the hanging gardens of Babylon
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Fantastic article! Indeed tourism and agriculture could bring Mesopotamia back to its former greatness, and change the entire ecosystem.

Let's hope the Iraqis and those they deal with don't pi$$ this opportunity away. Time to teach them (and others) some history, and how to appreciate it.

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

:D :D
Valkenar
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Re: War motivation

Post by Valkenar »

With regards oil as the excuse for the war, here is an interesting article: http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm Talks about actions the US takes in defense of its economic dominance. Going to war for Iraq's oil doesn't just mean that we go and physically take their oil. It can also mean planting a friendly regime that will sell it to us more nicely than Sadaam's would've. Or perhaps there's something to the currency issue discussed in the linked article. My general summary of the article is as follows:

The US benefits from the world's oil transactions being conducted in dollars. With the rise of the euro there's incentive for oil transactions to switch currencies. In the past, the US has shown antagonism towards countries that indicate they may change the currency of their oil transactions. Iraq was the first country to do actually do so, in November 2002.

I'm not an economist so there's only so much belief I can put in an explanation I know I'm not knowledgable enough to judge very well. But it makes some interesting points in relation to what this war is all about.

There are plenty of other theories out there for what Bush's motivations were for going to war, ranging from highly believable to highly suspect.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Justin

Interesting theory, and somewhat plausible.

However oil is a fungible asset. Throw it in the market here, and it lowers the price of oil there. As long as the market is pumping oil and selling it to someone, the price goes down.

Plus, the rise of the Euro w.r.t. the Dollar is a temporary thing, and has a lot to do with our record low interest rates right now. What goes up will come down. An in an open, free market economy, the value of a commodity will reach its true value, no matter what currency you use to pay for it.

While I'm only a junior economist, I believe I got all those points right... :lol:

But you do raise some interesting points.

- Bill
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