zen anyone?

[hoshin]

wow Jorvik;
you kind of blew my mind with that post. for the sake of not having my post erased i will hold my tongue and not entertain an arguement over religion on a karate web page.

i will say this however.. i am glad you hold on to your faith. but for those reading these posts i would hope that logic would previal.

Hoshin
~~~~~

[benzocaine]

Jorvic,

I like my white pajamas! I spent 80 bucks on a Gi 6 years ago and I still wear it. Try that with boxer trunks!

[hoshin]

wow ..you got 6 YEARS OUT OF A GI !!!!! maybe because i do ground work and use the gi like a hocky player during sparing, most gis for myself and those i train with will only last half that! unless you use it as a summer gi (with out the sleaves and the air vent holes in them)lol
if it wasnt for heavy duty canvas, classes would be naked...never seen a regular shirt last more then 20 minutes.

hoshin
~~~~

[jorvik]

Hoshin
I don't have a faith..not even impermenace/emptiness ....I'm still searching

[benzocaine]

Actually got about 4 years out of the Gi... I took a few years off ... actually my math is off.. but I have gotten ~ 4 years out of this Gi. A Ki brand heavy weight. I also confess that I have a few el cheapo Gi's that I alternate between. I don't do any groundwork either, but want to one day.

[HALFORD E. JONES]

James Mitose put out a book on Zen tales the title of which I can't recall but I have it in my library and since those who stem from these teachings use a modified Zen although Mitose was some sort of minister/priest trained supposedly in his family's temple in Japan at an early age.......Whether this is true is mosst difficult to ascertain or whether it was a manufactured mystique, based on his supposed relationship to Choki Motubu....anyone's guess. Herrigal put out another book, which I think I have, as a followup of some sort. Herrigal,however, as you should know was a die-hard Nazi and you will find that the Japanese and the Prussians/Germans as well as the French, has some influence on Japanese martial arts, believe it or not....in regards to training soldiers,military,etc. As I have said, this topic of Zen is fraught with peril!

[HALFORD E. JONES]

All organized religions all fall far from the truth, writ large!

[HALFORD E. JONES]

Again, Zen,Chan, Dhyana,etc. are interesting topics and related to,in a philosophical and psychological fashion, to Existentialism. These things can all get very complicated for ordinary as well as scholarly minds! In search of simplicity,we often end up with complexity! Reading about all this can be interesting and informative,of course, but we often know things without understanding them! Listening to tapes may be of some use as also viewing videos or CD-Roms and DVD's on such subjects but one has to abandon all these at some point and rely on actual, if possible, experience. As in all esoteric things, one needs a reliable and trustworthy teacher or guide,if such can be found,and even then they are to be abandoned at some point,just as one leaves a raft(usually) on the shore after crossing the river or lake or ocean !

[HALFORD E. JONES]

which I seldom wear at all these days,preferring informal attire. I still have my first judogi which I got in 1959 for $12.00 from Japan! It's in the Philippines at our place there and still ready to use along with some other gi's I have there.

[KerryM]

*picks up jaw from the floor*

hmmm- *does she open her mouth or no?*

hmmm

in my experience- it is exceptionaly difficult NOT to experience a Zen like state of mind as a result of practicing Uechi-

hows that?

lol-

hmmm-


I have been gone to long- third page into the topic and I have to admitt to not having read every single post in here-

hmmm-

In my personal experience I have also found it incredibly difficult to imagine Karate being taught WITHOUT an emphasis on a spiritual side-

this emphasis on a spiritual side does not need to interfere with anyone's previous or current organized faith/religion it can absolutely enhance it.

If you are a particular kind of christian that believes that meditation would lead you into temptation- then don't do it-

We used to actualy teach and hold our classes in the basement of a church for a while. - It was pretty cool-

Prayer and meditation-

hmm- did anyone bring up the similarities there?

hmmm-

To answer the original question-

I would RUN to a school that ACTUALY taught that it was perfectly ok to mix spirituality/ whatever kind is right per person- because

GASP-

Mind-Body-Spirit!!!

oo ooo oo what was that third word? LOL-

*(stepping in to edit that "in" our dojo's we do address "a" spiritual part of karate and let the actual practioner decide which "path" per se to take- if it is a christian one then awesome- go stand in sanchin and pray! If it's another- stand on the ground in your bare feet- in sanchin-!!! But we absolutely address the "Zen" like quality that can be attained through practice)*

that is the bigest part for me - the spirituality of karate. The "DO" of KARATE-DO *( but still- it doesn't/wouldn't take away from any "religious"-ness I felt the need to express- for there is a diffrence between spirituality and religion- that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle of religious doctrine etc. )

Sanchin MEANS three conflicts right? Mind- Body and spirit. They conflict with each other- karate- can help you try to bridge any gaps that you might not otherwise be made aware of-

i.e. when you are a brand new white belt walking into your first class-

remember trying to do round house punching excersize?

can you do it now?

how "did" you feel emotionaly about that- your inability to do that- and how do you feel emotionaly about "being able to" now- after practicing?

It is the most refreshing thing to see people discussing this.


To address the question again- we can't experience karate without "zen"-

Now I bet that the other topic talks about the actual definition of Zen doesn't it

Sorry to barge in after a long absense- I came in to ask another question and got so excited with the word ZENNNNNN

Zen and the Martial Arts-

YEAH! WOO HOO! For me personaly it's a must- something I practice every single day-

I meditate IN class! IN sanchin!

(still can't quite get in the "zone" in a horse stance though- still working on that one

*(psst- I'm not into the organized religion thing anymore myself either- I'm more- ecclectic I guess would be the word Celestine Prophesy kind of person meself here-


These are just some of my personal thoughts on the matter- I actualy have relatives whom are extremely religious so I'm quite familiar with all that entails. I certainly wouldn't want to imply that any path actualy chosen by someone was wrong-

For me- there are "absolutely" NO absolutes


Kerry-

[HALFORD E. JONES]

is that great buzz word,'ABSOLUTELY' mouthed so frequently on every talk show, radio show, and in every discussion these days? While I do not go bananas when I hear people using this term, I wonder what happened to such words as ,"certainly", really,truly, for sure, perhaps,etc. as we live in a world of relativity and uncertainly so how can there be any absolutes? I think the answer is that people want to have certainty and to have something fixed and absolute as their lives are so chaotic and a mess, usually. Especially the political,social,economic aspects. Yes, absolutely !

[KerryM]

LOL

WOO HOO

GO YOU!

K-