hate anger rage

[jorvik]

Well, everybody knows my opinion on this war
but check this out
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3678221.stm

Also consider that 50 former British Diplomats to the Middle East have written a letter of condemnation to Tony Blair about the way in which this matter is being handled.
They were also very dismissive of suggestions that the trouble was caused by Al-Qaeda et-al. Consider this foreignors to Iraq would be no better placed than Western troops in terms of language or local customs.
I think that we should try and relate the matters in Iraq to the way the Iraqis and Islamics generally think...not look at it from Western eyes. I often compare Northern Ireland, British troops were sent in to stop the Catholics being wiped out, not to attack the ira.but imagine the outcry if we'd blown up a couple of churches or killed a couple of priests ( even though some of them were known supporters ).
I think Akil's frustration is pretty much the same as mine, I always said that this was a stupid war..and I'm sorry to say that it is panning out in pretty much the way I predicted it would......to give an example if you accidently hurt one of my children ( I mean me personnally) then you become my enemy .....the parents of every child hurt in Iraq now hates the US...at least if they think like me.
The US stance is wrong here it should be "softly,softly" if somebody shoots at you you are not justified in killing a dozen civillians just to get at them.
I am surprised out how little some folks have thought about this..especially people associated with the military
Of course you kill contractors..they are an easy target, and by what right are they in your country....helping your oppressor...of course you put your troops in Mosques and risk the civillian population, because you know that you are an arab and an Iraqi....not an infidel and when the Mosque is blown up and the civillians are killed your position will be so much better..you will have the support of the populace.
A lot of the posts here seem to be of the John Wayne sort
"our boys " fighting an ungrateful nation that we have just fought for ( even though they didn't ask for it....and one that you had no argument with)

[Bill Glasheen]

Of course you kill contractors..they are an easy target, and by what right are they in your country....helping your oppressor

Oh really? If that's the case, jorvik, then why are you or others bitching about a few homes being blown up and a few snotty kids being turned into plant food? After all, THEY are easy targets, no?

Helping the oppressor? Hardly... Did you know, by the way, that the power grid is better now, and producing more power now, than BEFORE the war? Uncle Saddam apparently didn't give a damn about the Iraqi citizen; he was too busy building palaces and putting the Iraqi economy in the toilet. In fact, it has led to Iraqis purchasing more air conditioners, which has led to an even bigger demand on power, and a need for an even bigger electrical grid.

Yea, those nasty contractors that are there to help the oppressors...

Did you know, jorvik, that insurance companies carrying Iraqi oil have just doubled the premiums needed to cover the ships? Thank you, al quaeda, for that boat bomb. And of course the northern pipeline that carries the oil pumped in Kurdish territory has been slowed down to a trickle, thanks to the constant sabotage.

That, my good friend, means Iraq will not be able to make a profit today on its number one exportable good. The economy is already on the verge of collapse because of all the debt Uncle Saddam was building with the likes of France and Germany to keep his palaces in good order.

Yea, those nasty contractors that are there to help the oppressors...

Yea, that country that didn't ask for us to come there to help them...

BTW, jorvik, do you have any documentation that the IRA was storing weapons in Catholic Churches? Can you cite examples of where Catholics were firing on British troops from behind stainglass windows? I'd love to see it.

Oh and one more thing... Do the numbers. Tell me how many civilians that the coalition has killed. You may include all those that were killed unintentionally. Now do the math on the numbers that the Baath party and the insurgents have killed over the past few years - intentionally. Should be pretty sobering.

I'm not making excuses for bad behavior, jorvic. I'm glad my press reports such abuse, and happy that something is being done about it.

When you look deep into the matter, it looks like a handful of young soldiers were put in charge doing things they had no training for. Should have had professionals (contractors) doing it. Oh, but I believe you said it was fair game to kill them. Oops!!!

Nice logic, my friend.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Bill
I don't support the killing of contractors ....but I am truly appalled that the military leaders were too stupid to realise that they would be a prime target, and more wasn't done to safeguard them.
There was a body count of civillians on Al-jezeehra, last I looked it was 9,000..we've also had film of a 4 year old who had his leg and arm blown off in Falujah...he was caught in american Crossfire that was relayed by the BBC...the reason that I check Al-Jezeerah is that I want an Arab perspective, I want to be able to see how they reach their decisions ( I also think the American media is hypocritical, they don't show the dead children, or dead US soldiers ..because it's offensive but do show Saddams dead sons)
As to the ira, they did indeed use graveyards and churches to hide their weapons and there were catholic priests who supported them.......whom I think should have been excommunicated ...its a bit difficult to find the clips now.
I find the Irish situation strange ..the ira wanted a "United" Ireland, but it hasn't been united in hundreds of years..the North has always had a very strong protestant population, with very strong customs....and what were the people there French?Egyptian? No! they were Irish with as much right to their believes and customs as anyone else
the only reason that there are catholics in Northern Ireland, and a very small minority, is down to the potato famine when most fled to the North or America, or surprisingly Wales, and of course Liverpool.They never had any impact in the democracy because there were too few of them so the ira resorted to terror tactics.........
Now the situation has changed Eire is part of the EEC ( Berty Ahern,the Irish premier is the current president) something that power mad Tony Blair wants to be part of ( more strength to his elbow ).
Eire now uses Euros for trade and not punts. You may have heard on the news that there is a new treaty that the UK has to agree to ...this will give more power to Brussels and less self determination to the UK. ( power mad Tony has tried to squirm out of a referendum because he knows that there is a 90% chance he will loose ..and a very real possibility of the UK leaving the EEC
So the ira's wish for a united Ireland is gone because there is no Ireland....it is just a province of the united States of Europe, and consider this if we took our directions from Europe there would be no UK presence in Iraq.
There are two questions that were never asked to the British people 1. do you support the Invasion of Iraq?
2. Do you support your American allies....you would get to different answers two both these questions from the vast majority of Brits

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Says the moderator,

And I am happy you feel free to express your horror and frustration.

Actually, Bill, I feel anything but free to express my opinion. I feel maligned and misrepresented.

I feel my loyalty being questioned at every turn.

And I feel people trying to shut down my voice at every turn.

Like I have said before many times, this feels like a witch hunt.........A lot like the mcarthy witch hunt in which everyoine has to take a loath of loyalty and turn in their friends........

Akil

[cxt]

Akil

You know what I find interesting--your article is a US investigation into the crimes.

Seem we are activily bringing those folks who commit such crimes to justice.

Never should have happened in the first place.

(too be honest I don't really care anymore--but as nation we should)

But you seem to be using the fact that we DON'T consider such conduct Ok and are activily investigating and prosacuting (sp) the offenders as a negitive.

And that does not make sense.

Complain when we act and complain when we don't.

Again, no matter what we do--you paint it as wrong.

Thats unfair, logically inconsistant and very transparent.

Also kinda curious that you DON'T have anything to say about the articles statement that:

"insurgents regularly fireing on the prision."

Hmmmm, why the "no comment" on insurgents shooting at helpless prisioners??

Where is your outrage at the that??

Why ignore such crimes as insurgents shooting at unarmed people that can't run away??

Shame on you.

[Bill Glasheen]

jorvik

I find the Irish situation strange ..the ira wanted a "United" Ireland, but it hasn't been united in hundreds of years..the North has always had a very strong protestant population, with very strong customs....and what were the people there French?Egyptian? No! they were Irish with as much right to their believes and customs as anyone else

Actually no. As I recall my history, these aren't Irish. They are transplanted protestant members of the U.K. community, commonly referred to here as "Scotch Irish." A bit of an oxymoron, actually.

The Lithuaninan half of me understands this quite well. When the Soviets took over Lithuania, took their agricultural production for the Russians, and let the native population starve, they had some "issues" with the "natives." Seems they didn't like that so much. What to do? Send a bunch of Lithuaninans to places like Siberia, and throw a bunch of Russians into the population. Now Lithuania is about half Russian. As they say, there goes the neighborhood.

No matter... Lithuania kicked bootie in the Olympics first year they were independent. That tiny little country got a bronze medal in basketball. Now we know where the Soviet success came from - the giant athletes from that tiny nation. And no, the athletes didn't have Russian names.

To understand more about Lithuanian feelings and pride, take the time to read the novel Hunt for Red October. (The movie is missing the details). Very interesting...

I used Lithuania to make my point w/o getting the whole Protestant/Catholic, Anglo/Irish thing inflamed. This subtle practice of "cultural cleansing" has gone on for centuries. History shouldn't be forgotten.

I could do more research and provide details on the history of Ireland if you wish.

By all means, do tell me about the church (facility) involvement in weapons and shooting if you come across it. I'd be interested. In general though, I think you'd be hard pressed to find it. The Irish understand the policy of "not $hitting where you eat (or pray)."

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Akil

Actually, Bill, I feel anything but free to express my opinion. I feel maligned and misrepresented.

I feel my loyalty being questioned at every turn.

And I feel people trying to shut down my voice at every turn.

Like I have said before many times, this feels like a witch hunt.........A lot like the mcarthy witch hunt in which everyoine has to take a loath of loyalty and turn in their friends........

A part of me understands, Akil.

By all means, keep posting. I will defend your right to express yourself. The dialogue may seem "full contact" at times, but we need your point of view.

And by all means, listen to the responses. Perhaps something constructive can come of it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

7 U.S. troops reprimanded in prisoner abuse case

BAGHDAD (AP) — Seven more U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in connection with the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners carried out by guards at Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison, a senior military official said on Monday.
On the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, six of the soldiers — all officers and noncommissioned officers — have received the most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, the official said on condition of anonymity.

A seventh officer was given a more lenient admonishment.

The news came as Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the commander of the prison, said on ABC's Good Morning America that she did not know about the prisoner abuse.

"They were despicable acts," Karpinski said Monday. "Had I known anything about it, I certainly would have reacted very quickly."

As for the seven reprimanded officers, the military official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial. However, the reprimands could spell the end of their careers.

Another six U.S. military police are facing criminal charges.

And that's the way it should be. Otherwise we have no ground to stand on in the world community.

I am ashamed of this behavior, and yet proud of a system that calls it and deals with it in full view of the world community. We cannot begin to expect success in Iraq without modeling the behavior we expect of others.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

Bill Glasheen:
===
Justin, how long have you been reading this forum? Apparently you've missed many posts where a number of folks (myself especially) spoke of the checkered past of the U.S. vis-a-vis Iraq, dating all the way back to the Iranian hostage crisis. Apparently you've missed my posts referring to Saddam's actual source of WMD technology, and his killing a million (1,000,000) Iranians with our blessing and support.
...
Just be careful about the blanket generalizations.
...
===

I probably overstated my case, and I appologize for making a blanket generalization of it. It's not that I think there there's been a complete and total lack of recognition of our government doing anything wrong. More that anytime certain questions are raised cries of "but what about what they did to us?" followed by asperions about the character of anyone who disagrees. I have no problem with contrary opinions being expressed, but it shouldn't proceed from there to "and you're a traitor/monster for supporting 'the enemy'"

[jorvik]

quote
"Actually no. As I recall my history, these aren't Irish. They are transplanted protestant members of the U.K. community, commonly referred to here as "Scotch Irish." A bit of an oxymoron, actually."

so how far do these "Scotch Irish" go back 10 years? 15? perhaps...or maybe a couple of hundred? I think that you will find that it is only Americans and some Canadians who need to identify with their Ancestors from a couple of hundred years ago...I certainly don't and neither do the "Irish" in Northern Ireland they have lived there for hundreds of years and that is their home, and they regard themselves as Irish.......However, if you go back as far as Roman times you will find that the Irish ( Pictii) invaded Scotland and wiped out the Scottish...about 1500 years later these "Irish/Scottish/Irish were transported back to Ireland ....So they are truly Irish wichever way, that you want to look at it

[cxt]

Valkenar

I'm not sure that anyone here has called ANYONE a "traitor or monster"

If they have not--your characterization of them as doing so is both offensive and way off base.

[cxt]

Jorvik


The Romans were unable to control the Scots and Picts.

Thats why they constructed Hadriens Wall--to serve as a buffer.

The Picti did not, in point of fact, "wipe out the Scottish"

In point of fact the Picts were, to a large extent, defeated and later absorbed by the Scots.

[Valkenar]

Valkenar

I'm not sure that anyone here has called ANYONE a "traitor or monster"

If they have not--your characterization of them as doing so is both offensive and way off base.

Well then I'll retract it just in case. I was trying to paraphrase the attitude rather than quote an actual statement.
That attitude is definitely the impression I've gotten, but maybe it's not the impression that was intended to be given.
This goes somewhat beyond this specific thread, however, and there's no point in trying to rehash every thread that's gotten derailed.

[Bill Glasheen]

so how far do these "Scotch Irish" go back 10 years? 15? perhaps...or maybe a couple of hundred? I think that you will find that it is only Americans and some Canadians who need to identify with their Ancestors from a couple of hundred years ago

Wow, jorvik, that thesis would be a bit hard to defend.

Check out the former Yugoslavia, and the Balkan region. Heck, that's why our troops are over there now. And remember WWI??

Take the Middle East, Arab nations, Israel, etc., etc.

So, no ethnic difference between the Scotch and the Irish? Bite your tongue! I believe the Scots as well would back me here.

I don't believe in the homogenization of society. Perhaps that's why the U.S. has done so well in the past few centuries. Our strength is in our collective ethnic/cultural differences, and our ability to draw from them.

Not the melting pot at all, but rather a salad bowl.

- Bill

[Vash]

so how far do these "Scotch Irish" go back 10 years? 15? perhaps...or maybe a couple of hundred? I think that you will find that it is only Americans and some Canadians who need to identify with their Ancestors from a couple of hundred years ago

Wow, jorvik, that thesis would be a bit hard to defend.

====================================

So, no ethnic difference between the Scotch and the Irish? Bite your tongue! I believe the Scots as well would back me here.

I don't believe in the homogenization of society. Perhaps that's why the U.S. has done so well in the past few centuries. Our strength is in our collective ethnic/cultural differences, and our ability to draw from them.

Not the melting pot at all, but rather a salad bowl.

- Bill

Indeed. There is much difference in the denizens of Scotland and Ireland . . . mostly in the type of blood in the alcohol streams (For the record, I'm half Cajun, half Scotch on the Rocks )

Back, back, back in the family history, I have family that lived in Scotland under one name, then moved to Ireland using another, then back to Scotland, then to Mon-Freaking-Tana in the late 1800s. Useless information, or a sign of over-indulgence?