hate anger rage

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:41 am

Isn't it cheaper to send a black man to school/college/vocational traning than to jail? Or would that be defined as socialism or communism

Are you implying uneducated Black men are criminals ? , I think your on a slippery slope with this one .

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri May 07, 2004 3:04 am

Isn't it cheaper to send a black man to school/college/vocational traning than to jail? Or would that be defined as socialism or communism

Akil I think it might be defined as racism.

KZMiller · Post by **KZMiller** » Fri May 07, 2004 4:15 am

The problem with the study, IMHO, regarding prisoners and prison guards is that the prison guards weren't held to any professional standard.

I think soldiers make poor prison guards. There are professionals who do that sort of thing without abusing anyone, because to them, it's just a job. They don't care (at least they don't if they're doing the job right) if the prisoner confesses, doesn't confess, behaves, misbehaves, so long as peace and order is kept in the facility, all the guards go home safe at the end of the shift without getting sued and no prisoners are unnecessarily injured. Putting the same guys who are being shot at in charge of the people who were shooting at them is a disaster waiting to happen. When you've got paperwork, lawyers breathing down your neck, a process for every necessary procedure, and a professional atmosphere you don't see a lot of abuse.

I cringed when I saw the headlines, but I wasn't surprised. Just deeply saddened.

Btw, another flaw with the study: none of the 'prisoners' were looking at extra time if they misbehaved, so they could do pretty much whatever they wanted. Just my observation.

Kami

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri May 07, 2004 10:26 am

In 1971, for example, Stanford psychology professor Philip G. Zimbardo initiated an experiment in which participating Stanford students were designated either as prisoners or guards, with guards told to maintain order. After only a few days, the project had to be terminated prematurely because the guards were, with no apparent motivation other than fulfilling their roles, becoming uncomfortably abusive toward the prisoners. What does that say about our "nature"?

In another famous experiment, Yale psychology professor Stanley Milgram told subjects to give electric shocks to a victim in a learning experiment. As the victim — an actor in another room who was not actually being shocked — gave incorrect answers, the participants were asked to turn the voltage up, even to where the dial read "danger," a point at which the victim could be heard screaming. Although often reluctant, two-thirds of the subjects continued to follow orders to administer shocks.

I think Zimbardo and Milgram would take umbrage with their work being interpreted as such. I am familiar with their work. The point was to show the nature of man, and NOT the nature of Americans. IMO, the experiments would have come out the same, no matter what country or culture you chose to run it.

It's a process and system that protects the rights (whatever they are) and safety of prisoners, and not the morals of the man off the street. We pass laws to provide written guidance for our actions with them, train lawyers to represent them, professional guards to work with and protect them, etc., etc. The fact that we have whistle blowers pointing this out (in OUR country) and a system proceeding to justice shows that the system is working.

- Bill

cxt · Post by **cxt** » Fri May 07, 2004 1:08 pm

Akil

Intereresting article.

Have you had a chance to read some the material published by various human rights groups on the quality of prisons in Syria, Jordan and other parts east??

Are you aware that in certian parts of the middle east--such as under the Taliban--they are/were still cutting off a starving mans hands for stealing a loaf of bread??

Stoneing women to death for the mere ACCUSATION of adultry?

Pehaps you have had time to read about the recent problems in Lybia (sp)

A group of docters and nurses have been accused of "tainting" a blood supply.

(If they really did what they are accused of then I hope hell has a special place just for them)

The accused were beaten, tortured, endured repeated shock torture-actual electrical shock--not "tricks".
The women invoved were repeatedly raped.

I find it strange Akil that you have not posted an article about them??

Oh, sorry a Western nation is not involved--so you don't care.

What about China? Were they and are they not involved in the "harvesting" of organs from people they have locked up??

Nothing to say about that??

Oh, that's right China is not a Western nation either.

Sorry man, if you want to go around pointing fingers--you really should make sure your OWN hands are clean.

And most of the world has hands soaked in a LOT more blood then ours.

Does not make it right of course--but it does put things more in perspective.

cxt · Post by **cxt** » Fri May 07, 2004 1:32 pm

Akil--well ok anyone who might actually be interested in a more balanced view.

You might want to check out the book TORTURED CONFESSIONS--a look at the Iranian prision systems written by Ervand Abrahamian--think thats how you spell his name.

Frighting read.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri May 07, 2004 1:43 pm

Akil

Here's a review describing the book that might be to your liking - found on news.gooya.com, English edition.

Tortured Confessions: Prisons and Public Recantations in Modern Iran

- Bill

Doug Erickson · Post by **Doug Erickson** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:06 pm

This article is about a month old, but I think it's still worth a look: http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20030410a5.html

This is a portion of the article:

***********************

Colonel John Della Jacono, deputy chief of staff to the coalition forces land component commander, briefed media April 9 from Iraq via telephone connections to the Pentagon and U.S. press centers in Kuwait and Qatar. He stated "categorically" that enemy prisoners of war (EPWs) have received "care and humane treatment" from coalition forces.

All injured EPWs receive medical treatment, Della Jacono said. About 236 prisoners are in custody now, he said, and they are treated in field hospitals on the battlefield, and some are treated on the U.S. Navy hospital ship "Comfort," he said.

"So immediately, if we encounter a wounded EPW, he's getting the immediate care to treat him accordingly," Della Jacono said.

The colonel said EPWs farther north in Iraq not yet in the prisoner compound near Umm Qasr are fed the same food that coalition soldiers are eating -- meals ready to eat (MREs) and water. At the camp, though, a mess hall has been set up, and when a prisoner arrives, he receives an initial box of food, juice, bread -- "a pretty hefty little lunch kit ... to initially feed him as he gets to the facility," Della Jacono said.

"Right now they are using some of the Iraqi EPWs to assist in the preparation of their meals. So in the morning they were given fruit, tea, some sundry items, bread. At night they get their rice. They get meat, vegetables, and a pretty decent broth, and your sundry items with that -- water, juice, ... some tinned food items. So they are being well fed here," with two hot meals a day, Della Jacono said.

The prisoners are allowed to practice their religion in the compound, he said. Once necessary supplies are received, he said, prisoners will be issued prayer rugs and copies of the Koran, he added.

************************

Having posted the above, let me clarify that I am not in denial about the abuses that are coming to light. Clearly, Della Jacono was mistaken when he said the prisoners were "categorically" receiving "care and humane treatment." And I'm actually glad that the offending officers were dumb enough to take pictures of what they were doing, because they deserve to have their offenses publicized and to be punished to the fullest allowable extent. Also, holding this type of behavior up to scrutiny is the best way to make sure it isn't repeated going forward.

On the other hand, I think that what is described in the article above is the experience of 99.9% of those taken prisoner in Iraq. And giving prisoners prayer rugs and copies of the Koran? As far as I'm concerned, that is bending over backwards to accommodate them. Not that we shouldn't, but I think that merits some publicity too.

-Doug

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:41 pm

Isn't it cheaper to send a black man to school/college/vocational traning than to jail? Or would that be defined as socialism or communism

What about a white man Akil?

I don't see how that pertains to the article you posted.

Akil Todd Harvey · Post by **Akil Todd Harvey** » Sat May 08, 2004 1:29 pm

Your Arguments are weak, if not non-existent.....

Elk and others......You think that is a racist statement?..........And yet you have not really declared, all that effectively, how the statement was in any way derogatory or discriminatory........

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

CXT, although I do continue to ignore you on the whole, your arguments deserve the quick rebuttal from time to time...........

Let me see if I got you correct, CXT, I am not allowed to say anything about Americans doing bad until I list every single thing Muslims have ever done bad and for some strange reason I have to throw in China's bad deeds, too, before I can mention anything about what we have done wrong?

You are proof positive about much of what I was saying about how the minority opinion is attacked and ridiculed from start to finish. Shout the man down, he is stating an unpopular belief. Well, it seems that in this nation one still has to fight for their rights in order to maintain them and that goers doubly for the right to free speech (1st amendment).

For all of those folks who want to discuss issues unrelated to this thread, feel free to start a new thread. You want to talk about Iranian prison systems and human rights abuses in Muslim nations, perhaps a thread should be started that takes up these important issues. Heck, I was unaware that guys and gals like you were so interested in the plight of Muslims around the world. But be forewarned that American and Western complicity in these countries over the course of recent history will be uncovered as well. You may want to talk about abuses under the Ayatollah and I will show you the courtesy that few have done for me, but I will insist that historical factors like western interference, CIA supported death squads and coups and their affects on how democracy forms or does not form will be discussed as well.

How is the issue of human rights abuses in the various Muslim countries related to American anger related to the Iraq war or the killing and despicably mutilating the bodies of American mercenaries (civilian contractors who, apparently, have taken on military roles)?

There are a lot of people who are trying real hard to discuss anything but the issues on this thread.....They make no valid points, they merely throw out accusations lacking any credible proof and hope that it will shut you up or get you off track.........We can discuss issues of American rage or hatred, but it seems I am damned if I attempt to discuss the reasons that our enemy might not be happy with us

Sure sounds like you are trying to get me to shut the **** up any way you can. You seem real unhappy that you live in a democracy cuz it allows people like me a voice......

Akil

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat May 08, 2004 1:36 pm

Akil

Before you understand what's coming at you, perhaps you'd best evaluate your own statements. Your blindness to the inflammatory nature of your dialogue is leaving you with the (mistaken) impression that we wish we didn't have to listen to you. But frankly, sir, you hang yourself.

I want you to keep posting. Beneath all the anger, you have concerns that should be addressed.

Now, let's get close to the subject of the post, as you suggested.

How is the issue of human rights abuses in the various Muslim countries related to American anger related to the Iraq war or the killing and despicably mutilating the bodies of American mercenaries (civilian contractors who, apparently, have taken on military roles)?

Akil, Akil, Akil... I'll let your own words do what I wish not to do.

- Bill

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:14 pm

Isn't it cheaper to send a black man to school/college/vocational traning than to jail?~Akil

Your Arguments are weak, if not non-existent.....

Elk and others......You think that is a racist statement?..........And yet you have not really declared, all that effectively, how the statement was in any way derogatory or discriminatory........ ~Akil

Take out the word black Akil and there is no racism involved.

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

When you throw in the words "Black Man" Akil you use the race card.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:52 pm

I just deleted two posts, consisting of (and ONLY of) a half dozen or so letters to the editor of a copyrighted newspaper. I'd like to post some ground rules here.

In a court of law, one generally may not present a letter as testimony for either prosecution or defense. Why? Because defendants have the right to face their accusers, prosecuting attorneys have a right to cross-examine a witness for the defense, and individuals who create material have rights on the use of that material.

It's clear that one of the posters here found some people that don't like Bush. What a surprise!

However much of the logic in those letters was flawed. No problem… Someone reading said paper can write back and inform those writers exactly what the problems are with their logic – in that forum. I should think others actively participating in this thread should have the right to engage in a dialogue with anyone that chooses to represent themselves (or be represented) in these posts. That's the point of a forum.

One may post a link to an article, quote part of an article, include a letter to the editor from The Daily Planet, etc., etc. However one should:

1) recognize that this is NOT your work, and treat it as such, and

2) include such postings as material that supports your own ideas, and then be willing to engage in some dialogue about those ideas.

And of course I expect civility from all sides.

Feel free to discuss this more if there are any questions. Thank you.

- The Moderator (a.k.a. Bill)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat May 08, 2004 9:40 pm

For those who are reading this thread in near-real-time, I apologize that it took me a half dozen edits to get everything right in my last post. It's just that sometimes you have a gut feeling about something, and then it takes a lot of work and time to articulate those feelings.

Justice Thurgood Marshall spoke at one of my graduations. In that commencement speech, he told a story about a trial he participated in.

In the trial, an attorney was cross-examining a witness.

ATTORNEY: Ma'am, please tell us what happened on the night of the murder.

ELDERLY WITNESS: Well, I think...

ATTORNEY: Ma'am, please refrain from stating your opinions. Just tell us what happened on the night of the murder.

ELDERLY WITNESS: Well...I think...

ATTORNEY: Ma'am...

ELDERLY WITNESS: Look, I'm not like you lawyers. I have to think before I speak.

- Bill

Akil Todd Harvey · Post by **Akil Todd Harvey** » Sat May 08, 2004 9:46 pm

Right on!

It's hard to discuss these issues without getting a bit heated. On all sides.

Akil