hate anger rage

[jorvik]

this is the kind of coverage we have in my country from a very right wing conservative ( Republican) newspaper. Check out the video clip
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/liv ... ge_id=1770
but I gather it has been shown by ABC

[cxt]

Jorvik

Hard to say as no information as to the gunship, what was actually going on, what part of what battle was taking place, where it occured, when it occured, what the "truck" or "people" may have been doing, going to do, or had done.

Nor does it have any information as to the the crew of the gunship. Where they fighting off attacks to a dug-in US or British position?

Was the truck and men shooting surface to air missles?

Was the truck full of enemy fighters?? Running away from an attack??

See, we don't really know anthing, apart from a broad statement of supposed "US Brutality."

Since you are keeping a good eye out for "brutality" please refer me back to your outraged posts and newsclips concerning the insurgent attacks on mosques, insurgent attacks on prisons insurgent bombing which killed Iraqi children, and your postings/newsclips of the burning of American bodies, hanging them from a bridge and then having hordes of laughing, smiling people lineing up to have their picture taken with the multilated bodies.

You did post your outrage at all this didn't you??

You did post newsclips decrying the "brutality" of the insurgents right??

Sorry to use "you" but can't think of way to ask the question without referencing a specific action--or in this case a specific non-action.

[jorvik]

cxt
I haven't posted any comments about this...I just said this is what we are getting in the UK. A wounded Iraqi getting blown to bits by an American Gunship ( although my mpeg didn't get that far..so I dunno )
You already know my stance on this war. I am opposed to it because in my country we were lied to by our prime minister about WMD....were are they?
unfortunately everything that the anti-war brigade has said ( myself included ) has pretty much happened as we said it would.
Consider it as a public relations exercise that the US is loosing .....and badly

[cxt]

Jorvik

Point is if people are going to "finger point" on "brutality" then they need to speak out on similar acts all around.

Again, we know NOTHING substantive of the attack.

Just a clip of a truck being hit and some audio that may or may not be legit.

Don't mean to seem callous, but there is nothing in the clip to indicate it was in anyway a "bad shoot."

For the record I never thought the war was ever about WMDs, they were just ONE of a number of reasons.

A- Financial support of terroism--True

B- Harboring wanted terrorists --True

C- Working on WMDs--This one is tough since his OWN people were lying to him, If ruthless Uncle Shaddam didn't know the truth--How could anyone else possible figure it out.

D- Failure to comply with specifc UN Resoultions--which carried a specific penalty negotiated at the end of the first Gulf War--ie. you MUST do X or be invaded.
Ultimatily it all came down to Saddams choice.

E- Failure to prove he destroyed the weapons we KNOW he had--again as he was required to do so by the above mentioned agreement.

F- Maybe noone else gives a hoot that he was a brutal madman that caused the deaths of millions of his own people and ruthless invaded Kuwait (killing god know how many innocent Kuwaities)

Anyone of the above is good enough for me.

[Bill Glasheen]

Shocking video evidence of American brutality
18:31pm 8th May 2004
Shocking new evidence of American brutality has emerged in a film which appears to show the crew of a US helicopter gunship killing a wounded Iraqi.
The extraordinary film shows two Iraqis near a tractor, a lorry and a pick-up truck. One appears to have a rocket-propelled grenade.

Oh give me an f-ing break. We kill someone and buddy with an RPG, and that's brutality?



You don't think the wounded Iraqi or his friend couldn't shoot that thing and take the chopper down? Most reasonable people call this war. I believe killing enemies carrying things that can kill you is part of the game...

Pure, unadulterated trash, Jorvik, but a good laugh anyhow. And BTW, where did the video come from anyway? You think there was anything to hide???

Glad we blasted the suckers. Last I checked, RPGs are used for more than just keeping the BGs at bay while walking grandma to church. Heck, I don't think even Panther could find a legitimate use for one (not that he wouldn't want one anyhow... ).

- Bill

P.S. I respect you for being against the war, Jorvik. You are entitled. But this is rubbish.

[benzocaine]

Those Iraqis should have had their hands up in the universal "I surrender" pose, but instead they scrambled to hide and fight another day or get an RPG. Now THAT would have made us the Bad Guys.

That's one hell of a gun on that helecopter. I sure would't want to be at the other end of it!

[Bill Glasheen]

Soviet made, the rocket-propelled grenade launcher fires a rocket out of a tube. The launcher rests on the firer's shoulder. The rocket is percussion fired and the gasses escape the nozzle at a high velocity. This causes the rocket to launch. Just as the rocket emerges from the tube, large fins spring out from the rocket. These fins along with a motor on the rocket allows the missile to travel a great distance. Often used as an anti-tank weapon, the Somalis used an RPG to down the Blackhawk.

- PBS - Ambush in Mogadishu



RPG-7V
Calibre: launcher, 40mm
Length: launcher, 950mm
Weight: launcher with sight, 6.9 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 120 m/s
Max flight velocity: 300 m/s
Range: moving targets, 300 m; stationary target 500m
Armour pentration: see text

Kovrov Mechanical Plant, Vladimir Region, Russia
SRPE Bazalt, Moscow, Russia

- Jane's Infantry Weapons, 24th Edition 1998-99

Nice toy. I wonder if Rich will let me play with one of these at the firing range. Penetrates armour, eh? Rich, what kind of target do we need?

And BTW, what makes anyone assume these were Iraqis in the first place? Sure, sure, getting off his tractor, eh? Needed the RPG to get rid of that pesky mole??

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Hello all. The attack is real... I was shown it at Quantico some time ago. To put this in perspective this took place during the war over a year ago and the Apache was called in to take out a bunker and its crew. The truck was full of ammo being unloaded into the bunker.

The weapon used was a 25mm cannon mounted under the nose of the Apache. This weapon is also mounted on the turrets of the 'Light Armored Vehicles' such as the Bradley.

The attack was not from miles away such as when a c130 gunship is used, but likely from a few hundred yards. As was seen in Gulf War 1 the Iraqi's had no concept of technology and had no clue that our forces owned the night. They were not making much of an effort to seek cover as they did not fear being out in the open at night.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for the clarification and context.

- Bill

[Doug Erickson]

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... CTION=HOME

This is one of the most disgusting, horrifying things I've heard of yet that has come out of this war.

Interesting that the language in this article is utterly neutral--bereft of words like "shocking" and "brutal."

I haven't been completely sold on the point that atrocities are only perceived as such when perpetrated by American forces, but I think I'm starting to be swayed that way.

[Bill Glasheen]

This story has reached the mainstream press.

Video seems to show beheading of American

In the story, from AP in Cairo...

A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq, and said the execution was carried out by an al-Qaeda affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The video showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit — similar to a prisoner's uniform — who identified himself as Nick Berg, a U.S. contractor whose body was found on a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.

"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

This gentleman's body has been found. The family already knows he's been decapitated.

On the Web site, one of the executioners read a statement:

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused."

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

Golly gee, now there's a measured response.

The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi — a lieutenant of Osama bin Laden — was shown in the video, or was claiming responsibility for ordering the execution.

The Web site on which the video was posted is known as a clearing house for al-Qaeda and Islamic extremist groups' statements and tapes.

So...

No al quaeda link to Iraq?

What will be the response from:

1) those personnel who were engaged in the Abu Ghraib prison incidents - at all levels of command?

2) those that played the pictures and videos on the air over and over and over?

3) "Muslim men and women" ?

4) those who are using the Abu Ghraib prison incidents as a political football?

Just wondering... I don't expect to be enlightened here. I do however expect a mixture of responses, from the purely revealing (sincerity cuts both ways) to those that deserve Academy Awards.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Just to share my own feelings...

1) I see myopic extremists attempting an emotional hijacking of a nation.

2) I feel numb. I cannot feel for the family - right now - but hope to God that they have support. I feel I cannot react the way I WANT to react by getting caught up in the emotion.

3) I see what must be done - no more and no less. No second thoughts. No regrets. No concern about how it is perceived, but rather concern about what is just.

This is just me. Everyone reacts in their own way. One should not second-guess the response, but rather understand it and deal with it. It takes all kinds to make a nation.

- Bill

[cxt]

So only the only way to "redeem dignity" is with "blood and souls."

Can't wait to listen to the echos of silence from all over the world at such a craven act.

Note that these are the same folks whom DEMAND to be treated with dignity as prisioners.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[jorvik]

Ok, that is sick, I don't know how anyone can condone or justify that. I feel sorry for his family...getting him to read out his name..what must these people be thinking, no they won't go to heaven for this....
but
Quote
"So...

No al quaeda link to Iraq?

Well. this is a confused issue, there wasn't one ...but there probably is now. terrorists like to say they have "Cells" operating...in my mind that's a lot like Cancer, you get enough bad cells....and you got problems.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good analogy!

Sounds like we need a little chemotherapy here.

- Bill