hate anger rage

Bill's forum was the first! All subjects are welcome. Participation by all encouraged.

Moderator: Available

Post Reply
Valkenar
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Somerville, ma.

Post by Valkenar »

cxt wrote:Valkenar
The "freedom fighter" EQUALS "fire fighters" comparision just does not wash.

Fire Fighters risk life and limb in order to SAVE people from burning buildings.

The "freedom fighters" as Akil put it, actual BURN people.
Umm, Bill is right. "freedom fighters" fight *against* freedom, that was my point. I wasn't defending them. Police are crime fighters, flame putter-outterers are fire fighters. Maybe it's because crime and fire are bad (to make some broad generalizations) that my point didn't come through clearly. The point was certainly not that insurgents are the moral equivalent of fire fighters.
They are NOT "freedom fighters" by any rational use of the term.
Well, if you believe that the US represents freedom, then sure it does. We are freedom, they are fighting us, so therefore they are fighting freedom. Freedom fighters. No, this is not the common use of the term. Yes, I was just being silly.
cxt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:29 pm

Post by cxt »

Vaulkenar


Got it, understood.

Was doing a play on words myself.
IJ
Posts: 2757
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:16 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by IJ »

ATH is right that America has made some serious mistakes of late, and does have some double standards for other nations (I would point out there's a good reason for us to hold onto nukes and deny them to North Korea or any area influenced by the Al Qaeda club). Others are right that America is (somewhat grudgingly and belatedly) admitting these mistakes and going after the responsible parties (or what some people would say are those who took the orders from the responsible parties) and is working towards a laudable goal which is letting the Iraqi's govern themselves.

Can we all agree that sawing off someone's head in cold blood while they're bound and defenseless respresents the worst evil a human heart can conjure up, and that while America stands up for many great causes, it hasn't lived up to its potential in this conflict?

We needed to have played these situations by the book, mistreating none, doing our best to avoid offending local cultures and harming civilians, to prove that we are better than they are. I think that HAS been proven, but I wish we hadn't given Al Jazeera ANY ammunition for their argument.

Oh, and Bill, excellent use of Cyndi Lauper in a war thread!
--Ian
benzocaine
Posts: 2107
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Location: St. Thomas

Post by benzocaine »

It's sad that the actions of a few Rouge (sp?) soldiers have dragged the image of an entire nation with them.

The middle east/Muslum world has long viewed our country as the "Great Satan".. an imoral and impure country. They have believed that allowing democracy in their world would only make their world immoral. Look at what has happened. American troops do all sorts of perverse sexual acts with our prisoners.

I hope that those responsible are punnished to the full extent of the law and made an example of for our own soldiers and for the world to see that we frown upon that type of behavior.

~Ben H.
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian

Good posts, and good points made.

BTW, thanks for giving Cindi her credit where credit is due. I like music in general. The music infects my brain, but the lyrics stay dormant, and only haunt me when relevant situations arise. Strange...

- Bill
User avatar
Akil Todd Harvey
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Contact:

U.S. Islamic Leaders Call on Faithful to Denounce Terrorism

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

I found this in yesterday's paper.......

New campaign is aimed to counter anti-Muslim diatribes on radio talk shows and the Internet.

By Larry B. Stammer, Times Staff Writer

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 5762.story
Alarmed by resurgent anti-Muslim rhetoric in the aftermath of the beheading of an American in Iraq, U.S. Muslim leaders launched a new campaign Thursday to disassociate their faith from terrorism.

In Washington, the Council on American-Islamic Relations called on the nation's Muslims to sign an online petition to declare that terrorism betrays Islam and that American Muslims abhor it.

In Los Angeles, Muslim leaders said that the beheading of American businessman Nicholas Berg would be condemned in as many as 50 mosques that are part of the Shura Council of Southern California. Berg was killed by a man identified Thursday by the CIA as Abu Musab Zarqawi, who is considered an ally of Osama bin Laden.

The Los Angeles-based Muslim Public Affairs Council said it was stepping up a months-long effort to gather Muslim leaders and members of Congress on the steps of the Capitol to denounce terrorism.

Although Muslims have faced criticism and hostility before, such as after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Berg's slaying has prompted new outrage directed at Islamic leaders.

Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, and others said Muslims were being painted with a broad brush on radio talk shows and on Internet sites. Hooper said talk-show callers were asking why Muslims were not condemning the brutality.

The new American Muslim campaign, "Not in the Name of Islam," is "one way we can get that word out," Hooper said of the online petition drive.

Aslam Abdullah, editor of the Minaret, a national Islamic magazine published in Los Angeles, said: "Those people who claim they beheaded Berg have been killing innocent people for the last several years…. They are basically exploiting the case of the Iraqi prisoners. It's an ungodly, un-Islamic act. I have no hesitation in saying they are not Muslims."

Salam Al-Marayati, director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, called Berg's killing barbaric. He rejected any connection between Berg's beheading and the brutal treatment and humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad by U.S. troops. Berg's decapitation "was actually a stab in the heart of Islam," Al-Marayati said.

Abdullah said a prayer vigil at the Los Angeles Federal Building was planned for May 22 for Berg and the Iraqi prisoners.

"It's important," Hooper said, "that Muslims do their part to try and break this downward spiral of mutual hostility and hatred that seems to be engulfing the entire world."
Seek knowledge from cradle to grave
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Amen.
User avatar
Akil Todd Harvey
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Contact:

Ex-Inmate Alleges U.S. Abuse at Guantanamo

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

It's sad that the actions of a few Rouge (sp?) soldiers have dragged the image of an entire nation with them.
Ben, I guess if that were true then it would be a problem........But it seems that more and more rogue soldiers are being uncovered every day, with the trail leading right up to Donald Rummy......
In the interest of focusing on issues vs. personalities, I'd like to make a request. When posting, try to avoid using "you" as much as possible. I don't want to get overly obsessed with this and make a rule that's impossible to work with. We do, after all, have unique opinions and one needs to address individuals at time when discussing an issue or behavior.
Thanks for not personalizing this CXT.......Still looking for your quote where you say how the Prison abuses in Iraq are not systematic, but now we have found these same allegations coming from three different continents.......I guess it is still the work of a few rogue enlisted people.........Good job trying to give the rest of the culprits a "pass".......Maybe we can just put a little spin on this prison abuse scandal and have it all go away.....

Or maybe we can just excuse the whole thing by saying how bad the dictatorial regimes in Islamic nations are, doesn't that make it ok for us to do bad things, cuz they do it, too?

If its wrong, its wrong.....doesn't matter who is doing it......Oh and CXT, I did not know you were sdo concerned with the plight of people in Muslim nations, why have you not mentioned it in the past?

A Briton held for two years says prisoners were brutally beaten and sexually humiliated.

By Sebastian Rotella, Times Staff Writer

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... -headlines
MANCHESTER, England — A Briton who spent two years in the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, accused his American captors of subjecting him and other inmates to a catalog of brutality: beatings, forced injections, sleep deprivation and shackling in painful positions.

Jamal Harith, 37, described how he endured a beating in which a guard jumped up and down on his legs when he resisted an injection of an unknown drug, one of 10 such injections that left him feeling woozy and disoriented. He said interrogators forced him to spend long periods in painful positions on his knees or bound in chains that cut into his skin. On some days, according to his account, guards chained him to the floor for up to 15 hours in an interrogation room with cold air blowing in, forcing him to urinate on himself.

Harith said he witnessed dozens of beatings inflicted by a team of guards known as the Extreme Reaction Force. A guard with a video camera often taped the incidents, he said. Inmates suffered broken arms and legs, and bloodied and swollen faces, he said.

Harith's account of conditions at Guantanamo echoed some of the reports of abuse at U.S. detention facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan. He spoke with The Times last week in one of his first interviews with a U.S. newspaper.

Harith's detailed description of captivity in the secretive facility is difficult to confirm. But he said the evidence of wrongdoing in Iraq — depicted in now-infamous photographs — makes it harder to dismiss allegations that similar misconduct by U.S. prison guards occurs at Guantanamo.

"It's just like what was happening in Iraq. They'd say the same thing: 'Oh, yeah, really,' " Harith said.

"But the fact that you've seen pictures, then you can believe it, relate to it. All I can say is I have spoken to the people this has happened to. I have seen the effects. I have seen people beat up — the swollen faces, the limping back or being dragged back. I've seen the effects of it. I cannot produce pictures. All I can say is what happened."

U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller supervised the prison in Guantanamo before he was sent in March to run U.S. detention facilities in Iraq. Critics have suggested that Miller declared it was time to "Gitmo-ize" Abu Ghraib by introducing the kind of aggressive techniques used to interrogate suspects in Guantanamo. Miller denies this.

Harith insisted that he was wrongly jailed at the prison where suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are being held. He was among five British detainees sent back in March to Britain. Authorities there released them, saying they did not pose a security threat.

When the British press reported the former detainees' accounts of abuse at Guantanamo, U.S. officials asserted that conditions were consistent with the Geneva Convention governing the treatment of prisoners.

On Monday, the Pentagon said the five former detainees were not credible.

"Credible allegations of illegal conduct by U.S. personnel would be investigated and, as appropriate, reported to proper authorities," a Pentagon spokeswoman said. "The allegations being made by these individuals are untrue and not credible."

Harith and the other four Britons were released after lengthy negotiations between U.S. and British leaders. The U.S. has been widely criticized in Europe for allowing detainees to be held indefinitely at Guantanamo, where four other British nationals remain imprisoned.

Harith's recent treatment by U.S. and British authorities seemed to bolster his credibility. He is the only one of the five former inmates who was not held for questioning by British anti-terrorism police after his return.

The U.S. Embassy in London responded to questions from a British newspaper in March with a letter alleging that four of the men had trained with Al Qaeda and fought alongside the Taliban or supported extremism. But none of the accusations appeared to involve Harith.

Harith does not deny reports that British newspapers paid him and the others for interviews. Harith did not ask for payment for his interview with the Los Angeles Times. The lawyer for another former Guantanamo detainee canceled an interview after a request for payment was rejected.

Harith denies any ties to Islamic extremists and declares that those responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks should be executed.
"I think they should be taken up publicly and their life should be taken, simple, I have no qualms about that," he said.

Harith told his story as he lounged at a picnic table in Alexandra Park in Moss Side, the multiethnic area where he grew up in this industrial city in northern England. The tall, rangy man smiled shyly at neighbors who treated him like a celebrity, calling encouragement and shaking his hand. He spoke in a restrained, deliberate tone, a soft chuckle intruding even when he recalled traumatic events.

Harith, who was born into a family of Jamaican immigrants, said he converted to Islam in 1992. Between computer jobs, he traveled in Asia and Africa. From 1993 to 1996, he studied Arabic in Sudan, a hotbed of Islamic extremism, that at the time provided bases for Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. But he said that he had never heard of the terrorist network until after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Harith said he traveled to Pakistan in October 2001 despite the upheaval in the region from Al Qaeda's assault on the United States. "I travel anyway," he said. "I'm a traveler."

Although a number of radical Muslims journeyed to Afghanistan during that time to defend Bin Laden's base against an anticipated U.S. strike, Harith asserted that he had no intention of entering Afghanistan.

He said he hired a truck driver to take him to Iran. But they were hijacked near the border and forced into Afghanistan, where his British passport caused the Taliban to jail him on suspicion of spying, he said.

After the fall of the Taliban, Harith spent time in a Red Cross shelter and communicated with British diplomats in Kabul, the Afghan capital, about getting home, he said. But he ended up in custody at a U.S. military base in Kandahar on Jan. 24, 2002.

"As far as I'm concerned, I was kidnapped," he said. "Rushed into the Kandahar base. First I was beaten, stripped naked, interrogated naked, and after a week or two weeks in that concentration camp, I was sent to Cuba."

According to Harith, U.S. and British interrogators in Afghanistan assured him that he would not be detained for long in Guantanamo because his record seemed clean. But the welcome from U.S. Marines as he arrived, shackled and blindfolded, sent a different message, he said.

"They go around barking like dogs and all that, saying, 'You are now in the hands of the U.S. Marine Corps,' " he said. "And then, bam! And then if you move, or you look up, whatever, make a noise, you get beat…. They just go around elbowing, punching, kicking everyone."

Harith said he spent the first five months in Camp X-Ray, then was moved to Camp Delta. He says he underwent about 50 interrogations. He describes his cell as "a cage" in a block shared with 40 other inmates.

Harith said inmates told him about interrogations during which women in civilian clothes subjected them to sexual humiliation that, like the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, seemed calculated to embarrass observant Muslims.

"They said a female was brought in," Harith said. "Some of them were young guys from Saudi [Arabia], Yemen. They were young guys, they had women playing with their genitals. Other guys, they were pushing their breasts in their faces. They said they did it especially during [the holy month of] Ramadan."

Harith acknowledged he has no firsthand experience to corroborate those allegations.

Other inmates endured more harrowing ordeals than his, especially those locked in isolation cells for months, said Harith, who added that he spent only brief stints in isolation.

"It's like the 'Alien' film: 'In "Iso" nobody can hear you scream,' " he said. "On many occasions I heard people being beat…. I got it easy compared to what other people got. If there is such a thing as easy, that is."

An Australian inmate named Mamdouh Habib suffered the effects of forced sleep deprivation, according to Harith's account.

"He was very weak, could hardly walk. I [saw] him fall unconscious. Blood was coming out of his nose, out of his ears."

The British government has said it will inquire into Harith's allegations. But Harith said he remained bitter because he had complained to British diplomats who visited him at Guantanamo, and was told they could do nothing about it.

Today, Harith savors his time with his family and walks in the park. He said he got a surprisingly warm homecoming in a part of Britain with little tolerance for anyone said to be linked to Islamic extremism.

"All these people I don't know just come up to me," he said. "You'd think it'd be just Muslims. The majority that have come up are non-Muslims. They've been hugging me, saying, 'I've been praying for you. You've survived this long. Keep it up.' "
[/quote]
Seek knowledge from cradle to grave
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Akil

Your editing of the article makes it a bit difficult to read. Why not let the material stand on its own, the way the author intended it to be delivered? A little editing and quoting is fine, but anything in excess destroys the intent of the original author.

Man's inhumanity to man is a common theme that knows no cultural boundaries. War brings it out, and it takes extraodinary discipline and compassion to keep true to ideals when the enemy fights from the gutter. As they say, when you wrestle with a pig in the mud, you're going to smell like ****

I have faith that the Bush-hating half of the press is going to extract each and every transgression - as they should. Democracy often isn't pretty, but it prevails. Totalitarian regimes (secular or religious) who squelch free speech will never truly represent the heart of their people. God (Allah) help them.

- Bill
User avatar
Akil Todd Harvey
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Contact:

Paper Criticizes Own Reporting on Iraq

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Bill,

Hope you are well.....

Editorial notes left out this time........Hope it makes for a better read.......The press has been oh so disapointing regarding most of this Iraq mess.....They seem to want to play both sides of the fence, both hyping up the falsified "dangers" as "Facts" and detailing our failures of, in many cases, proper planning and organization, all of which can be harped on and used to sell more newspapers or tv ad time (with increased ratings, of course)......Sorry, a little cynicism creeping in......

In my book, failing to plan is akin to planning to fail.......

New York Times editors tell readers that some sources and articles on weapons of mass destruction should have been better scrutinized.

By Eric Slater, Times Staff Writer

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... ome-nation
The New York Times published a self-critical note to its readers late Tuesday, in effect apologizing for the paper's sometimes erroneous reporting on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq both before the United States and coalition countries invaded in March 2003 and during the early days of the occupation.

The mea culpa first appeared on the paper's website, and is in today's editions. The unusual note, which includes a pledge to "continue aggressive reporting aimed at setting the record straight," follows months of criticism.

Readers, other journalists and some antiwar politicians have argued that the paper's numerous stories suggesting that Saddam Hussein may have constructed a large weapons of mass destruction program helped bolster the Bush administration's argument for going to war. No such weapons have been found.

"Over the last year this newspaper has shone the bright light of hindsight on decisions that led the United States into Iraq," the note begins. " … We have studied the allegations of official gullibility and hype. It is past time we turned the same light on ourselves."

The note, "From the Editors," says the paper reviewed hundreds of articles and turned up an "enormous amount of journalism that we are proud of. In most cases, what we reported was an accurate reflection of the state of our knowledge at the time…. And where … articles included incomplete information or pointed in a wrong direction, they were later overtaken by more and stronger information. That is how news coverage normally unfolds.

"But we have found a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been," the note continues. "In some cases information that was controversial then, and seems questionable now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged — or failed to emerge."

Many of the problematic articles "shared a common feature," the note says. "They depended at least in part on information from a circle of Iraqi informants, defectors and exiles bent on 'regime change' in Iraq, people whose credibility has come under increasing public debate in recent weeks."

The best-known of those sources is Ahmad Chalabi, who the paper says had been a source since 1991. Chalabi was once a favorite of the Bush administration, which viewed him as a potential leader for Iraq. In recent weeks, however, the U.S. has cut off his funding and accused him of feeding U.S. and other intelligence agencies false information to shore up support for the invasion.

The note from the editors references more than half a dozen stories specifically, most of which appeared on the front page.

One describes an Iraqi who says he worked at numerous biological, chemical and nuclear weapons sites as recently as late 2000, but offers little skepticism of his unverified claims.

The note also points out that Knight Ridder Newspapers reported last week that U.S. officials asked the same man earlier this year to point out some of these sites but found no evidence of former weapons programs. "In this case it looks as if we, along with the administration, were taken in. And until now we have not reported that to our readers."

Another front-page story, from Sept. 8, 2002, and headlined "U.S. Says Hussein Intensified Quest for A-bomb Parts," was about aluminum tubes that U.S. officials — not Iraqis — said were components for manufacturing nuclear fuel.

But the tubes were in fact a topic of great debate among nuclear scientists. The paper did not prominently report skepticism about the use for the tubes until four months later, in a story that ran on page A-10. "It might well have belonged on Page A-1," the paper said Tuesday.

Many news organizations reported on claims of weapons of mass destruction before the war, though the New York Times was more aggressive than most. The failure to find any such weapons has brought growing calls by some media critics, led by Slate columnist Jack Shafer, for the paper to own up to such errors.

Much of the paper's critique of its reportage revolved not around making some mistakes, but rather in reporting the allegations of some anti-Hussein figures without accompanying qualification, and in failing to correct mistakes in follow-up stories.

The primary lightning rod for outside criticism of the paper's coverage has been staff writer Judith Miller, who penned many of the paper's early stories on weapons of mass destruction and was involved in some of those mentioned in the note from the editors.

In what appeared to be a veiled reference to Miller, the editors write that some critics "have focused blame on individual reporters. Our examination, however, indicates that the problem was more complicated. Editors at several levels who should have been challenging reporters and pressing for more skepticism were perhaps too intent on rushing scoops into the paper."
Seek knowledge from cradle to grave
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Image Courtesy USA Today

Not all bad guys are Muslim. And not all WMDs are of the classical variety. Just ask the residents of Oklahoma.

Saddam was already funding terrorism in Israel. Just ask the rich families of suicide bombers. I still think the U.S. did the right thing, and all the posturing European countries are whores and pimps that lost their Saddam ca$h flow.

But truth be told, the jury is still out. As Yogi Berra said, It ain't over until it's over.

- Bill
Ted Dinwiddie
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

Since Oklahoma City was brought up, I wanted to mention that the whole stroy there is far from forthcoming. I remember John Doe 1 (McVeigh) and a John Doe 2 from rental truck agency investigation who has mysteriously never been mentioned since McVeigh was caught. I read at one time that there was evidence of JD2 being a "former" Iraqi intelligence officer. I remember stories of witnesses who saw the truck and several men, apparently when the explosive was being mixed in the back. McVeigh was not alone, and Terry Nichols was not the only accomplice.

And now we hear of Al Quaida activity and the desire to recruit Americans for acts in this country. McVeigh fits quite nicely into such a scheme.

There is alot more to all of this than we as taxpayers are allowed to know.

Personally, I believe that every time somebody is marginalized and disenfranchized by "the man" or the system, or "big brother", or the "In" crowd, another potential terrorist is born. The tragedy at Columbine High School is another case in point.

Modern society, as a whole, is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

Have a nice day :D
ted

"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
User avatar
Akil Todd Harvey
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Contact:

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Hard to argue with your there, Ted.....And the following article may shed some light on why some US veterans might do something as tragic as they were accused of doing in OK.....

Hopefully, support for our troops includes when they return, as much as while they were away. Our men and women in service, are, I hope, more than mere cannon fodder and pawns in an international political and economic folly, and will receive whatever medical and psychological services they require, in a timely fashion.
After the homecomings are over and the yellow ribbons packed away, many who once served in America's armed forces may end up sleeping on sidewalks.

This is the often-unacknowledged postscript to military service. According to the federal government, veterans make up 9% of the U.S. population but 23% of the homeless population. Among homeless men, veterans make up 33%.

Their ranks included veterans like Peter Starks and Calvin Bennett, who spent nearly 30 years on the streets of Los Angeles, homeless and addicted.

Or Vannessa Turner of Boston, who returned injured from Iraq last summer, unable to find healthcare or a place to live.

Or Ken Saks, who lost his feet because of complications caused by Agent Orange, then lost his low-rent Santa Barbara apartment in an ordeal that began when a neighbor complained about his wheelchair ramp.

"I'm 56 years old," Saks said. "I don't want to die in the streets…. This is what our [soldiers in Iraq] are coming home to? They're going to live a life like I have? God bless them."

Studies indicate that some will live such a life. Male veterans are 1.3 times more likely to become homeless than non-veterans, women 3.6 times more likely. According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, the estimated number of homeless Vietnam veterans is more than twice the number of soldiers, 58,000, who died in battle during that war.

In the past, data quantifying homelessness among veterans did not exist, said Phillip Mangano, who heads the U.S. Interagency Council on Homelessness. "It's been precisely the lack of research that had us groping in the dark as far as what our response should be," he said.

But in 1996, a comprehensive study on homelessness by the Census Bureau, co-sponsored by the VA and other federal agencies, offered a disturbing look at the men and women who once wore uniforms.

Although 47% of homeless veterans served during the Vietnam era, the study found, soldiers from as far back as World War II and as recent as the Persian Gulf War also ended up homeless.

It is impossible to know exactly how many U.S. veterans are on the streets, but experts estimate that about 300,000 of them are homeless on any given night and that about half a million experience homelessness at some point during the year.

Now, as fighting continues in Iraq and Afghanistan, social service providers wonder what will happen to this generation of service men and women returning home from war.

"What are they going to do for these guys when they come home … other than wave a flag and buy them a beer?" asked Paul Camacho, a professor of social science at the University of Massachusetts Boston and a Vietnam veteran.

Nobody can pinpoint a single cause for homelessness among veterans. As with non-veterans, the reasons vary: high housing costs, unemployment, substance abuse, poor education. Veterans may also contend with war injuries, post-traumatic stress syndrome and frayed family relations.

The transformation from spit-polish soldier to urban nomad is as much a question of what does not happen in a person's life as of what does. The strict, orderly world of military life — where every soldier is housed, fed and treated when ill — does not necessarily prepare veterans for the randomness of life outside. Even the VA loan guarantee, which has helped generations of veterans purchase homes, is useless for those too troubled, or earning too little, to take advantage of it.

Homelessness among veterans is currently the topic of joint talks between the departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs, said Peter Dougherty, the VA's director of homeless veterans programs.

"Traditionally, what happens to you after you leave has not been a concern of [the] service," he said.

The Defense Department has created a Transition Assistance Program — designed to help smooth the switch from military to civilian life — but such efforts lag far behind the problem, experts say.

Thousands of veterans struggle every day for survival in a fight that most are not prepared to wage.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Being a soldier made Sgt. Vannessa Turner proud. The petite 42-year-old, who holds an English degree from St. Mary's College in Moraga, Calif., and a sharpshooter's badge from the U.S. Army, loved wearing the uniform, serving her country, being a part of America's might.

The military offered her a chance "for something better for myself and my daughter," a shot at leaving "the 'hood."

Since 1997, the Boston native's addresses had been U.S. military bases, some in Saudi Arabia, Korea and Germany. But the certainty of shelter crumbled last year 40 miles outside Baghdad.

On May 18, Turner was waiting in line at Camp Balad's post exchange in 130-degree heat when she experienced difficulty breathing, then collapsed. Doctors at a nearby medical center put tubes down her throat and nose and inserted IVs into her arm.

As Turner lay in a coma, doctors reported that her death was imminent and officials medically retired her.

But Turner held on. Flown to Landstuhl, Germany, then to Walter Reed Hospital near Washington, D.C., the avid weightlifter was bloated, discolored, rigid and on life support. For three months she fought an illness that baffled doctors. As she recovered, she discovered a new life that baffled her.

With her return stateside in July, Turner unsuccessfully sought housing while still recovering and coping with post-traumatic stress syndrome, which keeps her up at nights and edgy. She and her teenage daughter relied on relatives and friends. They lived with her mother, then an aunt, next a cousin. Once they shared a one-bedroom apartment with eight people.

This kind of return home she could not have imagined as she drove a five-ton truck in Iraq, facing down angry crowds. "Never in my wildest dreams," she said.

She soon learned the limits of her monthly service-related disability check of about $2,200. Realtors suggested that she leave Boston for cheaper areas.

Still in pain and suffering nerve damage in one leg, Turner sought help at the West Roxbury VA Hospital shortly after her return to the United States. The VA rep told her that she could not see a doctor until after October, Turner said.

What am I supposed to do until then? she asked. Go to the emergency room, she said she was told.

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) learned about Turner's dilemma and stepped in to help. Previously, Kennedy, the USO and Sen. John F. Kerry, another Massachusetts Democrat, helped Turner's family with the money needed to fly to Germany to see her on what was presumed to be her deathbed.

Turner appreciated the senators' help. She did not understand why it was needed.

"The point here is: I am a veteran of the war, wounded, and I cannot even get an appointment without the senator getting involved," she said.

The VA has acknowledged what "was probably a mistake on our part," said Dougherty, the VA official. "A returning veteran who comes back from the Iraqi freedom campaign is to be seen on an expedited basis."

Since then, the "VA has responded appropriately," he said.

It also took intervention by Massachusetts state Sen. Diane Wilkerson, Turner said, to finally find an apartment — in the same kind of rough-and-tumble neighborhood she had escaped by joining the military.

As for her illness, the cause was never determined and its effects linger. For now, Turner is still all soldier, worrying about those she left behind in Iraq, still proud of serving the country. But there is also a feeling of dread she never expected to encounter.

"Growing up, you see Vietnam veterans on the streets, some with amputated legs, some crazy…. Now you see why," she said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A wheelchair ramp allowed Ken Saks to navigate the two small steps and get inside the Santa Barbara apartment building.

Then the ex-Marine — who enlisted at 17 and stood 6 feet 2 when he was battling the Viet Cong — lowered himself to his hands and knees and crawled up a flight of stairs to his $550-a-month apartment.

Last year, Saks lost the apartment and, for the second time in his life, was homeless.

The first time was in 1997. He was living in Palm Springs and had already begun to suspect that the war was making him sick.

In prior years, abscess sores covered his soles, worsening until he could not stand. He had diabetes — caused, he suspected, by exposure to Agent Orange.

At that time, VA doctors had found no link between Agent Orange and diabetes and turned down his request for help. His life buckled under the weight of medical bills and poor health.

With his house in foreclosure and his job gone, Saks filed for bankruptcy in 1997 and eventually ended up living in an RV for five years.

"The mobile home was a last resort, because he would have been on the street," said his mother, Mildred Saks, herself a World War II veteran. "He's a doer. And he's abrasive sometimes, but he's got a lot of moxie. He's a good Marine."

Not until 2001 did the VA acknowledge that Saks' diabetes and other health problems were service-related, guaranteeing him medical care and a $2,100 monthly disability check. But the help had come late.

"I had lost both my feet by the time they said this is Agent Orange," Saks said. "Here I am, 30 years down the road…. It took my life savings. It took my home."

The Santa Barbara apartment, where Saks wrote poetry in the solitude he craves, was a casualty of another sort.

Without a city permit, he had placed the wheelchair ramp next to the building on a wide stretch of sidewalk. Then a neighbor complained about the ramp.

What followed was a drama of court hearings and moral appeals involving the city, the building's trustee and even the California Coastal Commission.

In the end, Saks was forced to move into a $300-a-week motel.

Finding another place to live was complicated by his disability and by the fight to keep his old apartment, which left an eviction on his record.

"I just think it's heartless of this community," he said, sitting on Stearns Wharf. "You wouldn't have all [this] wealth and freedom if it weren't for people like me willing to put on a uniform and go to war."

In January, Saks finally moved into an $875-a-month one-bedroom apartment after a friend, a fellow veteran, spoke to the owner on Saks' behalf.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To Toni Reinis, executive director of New Directions, a program for homeless veterans in Los Angeles, the presence of vets on the streets is a national disgrace.

The program is a cause for hope. In 2003, 170 of its graduates found jobs. Some went to work in New Directions' businesses: a construction company, a catering company, a handy worker program, a cafe on the VA grounds in Westwood.

New Directions does not wait for homeless men and women to knock on the doors of the facility in Westwood. It sends graduates of the program, like Peter Starks and Calvin Bennett, out searching on skid row, at MacArthur Park and on county beaches — often starting at 6:30 a.m.

One recent morning on skid row, among the cardboard houses, tents and tarps, they began the day's search: Good morning, brother, how you doin'? You a vet? Anybody a vet?

One former Marine named Darryl sat on a crate, his belongings in a shopping cart. Another walked down the street wearing a "Proud to Be an American" jacket and missing a thumb.

A man who said he was a veteran and called himself Rock sat on a piece of cardboard eating spaghetti.

"I fought for the flag," he said. "But the flag never fought for me." Rock wanted nothing to do with Starks or Bennett, echoing a common distrust of government, particularly the VA.

In this work, experience is the currency that buys legitimacy. Many other veterans and non-veterans listened to Starks, the ex-Marine who was wounded twice in Vietnam and took his first hit of marijuana while hiding in a bomb crater. When he returned home, he used drugs, trusted no one and never talked about the war.

Starks spent 30 years addicted, pushing shopping carts, sleeping on the streets. Three years ago, a veteran who had graduated from New Directions spotted him and encouraged him to complete the program.

"Willie B. came and got me from the dope spot," he said.

On this Thursday morning Starks searched the street for Mark, a 51-year-old former Navy man and heroin addict who had spent a month sleeping under freeways, and years and years in prison. The day before, after listening to Starks, Mark had said he would leave this life behind.

"I hope to God that this guy sticks to it," Starks said, as he drove through skid row. He cruised past a crowd huddled around a dying campfire on the sidewalk.

Finally, he spotted Mark. "There he is!" In what seemed like one fluid motion, Starks was out the car, on the sidewalk, ready to scoop Mark up.

But Mark, a duffel bag on his shoulder, a tentative look on his face, was not ready to go.

I need to shoot up first, he told Starks. I need to find the dope man. Can you come back in 15 minutes?

Starks has seen windows of opportunity slam shut in an instant. Men get on the New Directions van headed to their new lives — and get off before it leaves skid row. They say they will call and don't. Standing next to the car, Starks did not chide Mark or preach. I'm not going nowhere, Starks said to Mark. I'll wait right here.

In a few seconds, hardly enough time to find the dope man, Mark was back. Heroin, at least today, had lost its hold.

"I've had enough," he said, heading for the car. "Let's do it. Let's go. I'm through…. I'm tired."

"You're making the right decision," Starks said as they drove away.

At New Directions, 700 to 800 veterans finish the detox program each year. Then they return to the order that marked military service: up at a certain hour, dressed a certain way, bed made just so, meals together.

The men spend a year working on changing themselves: education, job training, counseling, medical care, anger management, reuniting with family.

In exchange, they agree to follow the rules, like the soldiers they once were. Mark did not balk or complain. All he wanted, he said, was what his habit had stolen from him.

"I just want a little dignity," he said. "I want to look at my mother and my daughters and say I'm doing it straight."

In the lobby waiting to begin the process, Mark seemed pensive but unwavering. Take care of this brother, Starks said to the staffer who came to greet him. Then he turned to hug Mark.

"It's gon' be all right," Starks said.

Then he walked outside and raised his fist in victory.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Before the end of the month, Mark had left the Westwood campus and the opportunity that New Directions had offered. It is not known if he returned to the streets.

Since his departure, many veterans like him have completed the program. They now confront a vexing imbalance: Many will earn about $8 an hour in a town where the average rent for a two-bedroom apartment is $1,346, in a county where the median price for a house is $387,000.

Having conquered the demons of their past, they face a new battle.
Seek knowledge from cradle to grave
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Good points, and good articles.

However I wouldn't blame the behavior of Mcvey and Nichols on PTSD. Sometimes losers and mentally imbalanced people do time in the military, get discharged honorably, and then do bad things. IMO, this was the case with those two.
Nobody can pinpoint a single cause for homelessness among veterans.
Read Grossman's "On Killing." Much is addressed there. We now know a lot about what happens when you train people to do what they are not wired to do (kill and/or participate in combat). You can do it, but many pay a price after a certain time period.

And we have yet to completely understand how to deal with the aftermath. And government isn't always willing to step up to the plate for veterans the way they should. But then when has government been particularly good at anything?
Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) learned about Turner's dilemma and stepped in to help.
On balance, I'd say that the only folks who love what Teddy Kennedy has done for (to) the military are hard-core liberals with an agenda. But that's just my opinion.

Meanwhile, what have you (not you, Akil) done for a veteran today?

- Bill
cxt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:29 pm

Post by cxt »

Akil

You just might want to do some fact checking prior to posting long articles by authored by other people.

They are often less accurate than you might wish.

A number of studies would indicate that Vietnam vets get a "raw deal" when it comes to sterotypeing them as being "homeless drug addicts."

In point of fact most Vets (vietnam and otherwise) are productive, successful, "normal" folks.

Most vets are NOT drug addicted--homeless--PTSD--sterotypes.

On other topics--you might want to compare the number of abuse cases--CASES NOT ALLEGATIONS--vs the sheer number of people being held--how many 10's of thosands of folks compared to how many abuses.

Of course even one abuse is in my view one to many--but there needs to be some perspective here.

I have yet to hear you speak out on the manner in which the terrorists in Iraq and in Saudi treat THIER prisoners.

Beheading captives and slitting the throats of hostages seems to me a bit more evil then taking some naked pictures---but maybe thats just me.

You might want to check out a little documentary currently running on the Discovery channel-- on the horrors Saddam and company inflicted upon his own people ---such as cutting the hands off merchants whom did not hand over enough money--the systamatic rape of many 100's of women.

The hanging of live prisoners then beating them to death--dropping live people into barrles of acid--throwing them off 3 story blgds--ON TAPE.

100,000 or more people that just "vanished."

I find it telling (and more than a little sad) that a person so concerned with the treatment of Musliums has failed to even mention the daily horror of living under the Saddam regime.
Post Reply

Return to “Bill Glasheen's Dojo Roundtable”