It is good to know that some of our elected reps are willing to speak out...
Miller: Finger-pointing, Apologies
Over Prisoner Treatment Only Boost Enemy
"I Refuse to Join In National Act of Contrition"
WASHINGTON - U.S. Senator Zell Miller (D-GA) today delivered the following statement on the floor of the United States Senate addressing the situation at the Abu Ghraib prison.
"Mr. President, here we go again, here we go again. Rushing to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Pushing and pulling and shoving and leaping over one another to assign blame and point the finger at America the Terrible. Lining up in long lines at the microphones to offer apologies to those poor, pitiful Iraqi prisoners.
"Of course, I do not condone all the things that went on in that prison, but I for one, Mr. President, refuse to join in this national Act of Contrition over it.
"Those who are wringing their hands and shouting so loudly for "heads to roll" over this seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that someone's head HAS rolled - that of another innocent American brutally murdered by terrorists.
"Why is it? Why is it that there's more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all? Why is it that some in this country still don't get that we are at war? A war against terrorists who are plotting to kill us every day. Terrorists who will murder Americans at any time any place any chance they get.
"And yet here we are, America on its knees, in front of our enemy, begging for their forgiveness over the mistreatment of prisoners. Showing the enemy and the world once again how easily America can get sidetracked and how easily America can turn against it self.
"Yes, some of our soldiers went too far with their interrogation tactics and clearly were not properly trained to handle such duty. But the way to deal with this is with swift and sure punishment, and immediate and better training. There also needs to be more careful screening of who it is we put in these kinds of sensitive situations.
"And no one wants to hear this, Mr. President and I'm reluctant to say it. But there should also be some serious questioning of having male and female soldiers serving side by side in these kinds of military missions.
"But instead, I worry that the HWA - the Hand-Wringers of America - will add to their membership and continue to bash our country ad nauseam. And in doing so, hand over more innocent Americans to the enemy on a silver platter.
"So I stand with Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma, who stated that he's "more outraged by the outrage" than by the treatment of those prisoners. More outraged by the outrage. It's a good way of putting it. That's exactly how this Senator from Georgia feels."
Thanks Zell,
Rich
A Great American Speaks Out!
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RACastanet
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A Great American Speaks Out!
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
Question and comments:
What on earth does this have to do with male and female soldiers serving together?
The hand wringing is a bit excessive. I think the biggest problem with the abuse is not that its totally repugnant by our internal standards, but that it cost us PR with the arab world for a generation. Doesn't anyone think that's a problem?
Lastly, that senator seems to think that the people who killed nick berg are the people we're apologizing to are the people we abused are the enemy. Seems to be unable to make the distinction that Arabs come in different flavors. Obviously the killers and the terrorists and the combatants in Iraq are enemies--I don't see how continuing to piss off the general Arab public, aka the al qaeda recruitment block, is going to help us in the long run.
I recommend people who haven't yet see "The fog of war" which is basically Mcnamara's memoir, do so. Here's a guy who watched and directed our military policy from WW2 to vietnam, and one of his 10 lessons is--to deal with the middle eastern terrorists, we must be able to empathize with them--not extend them our sympathies, but understand them. He blames our failure to do this for our failure in Vietnam. But there really are no valid comparisons between vietnam, and iraq, right?
What on earth does this have to do with male and female soldiers serving together?
The hand wringing is a bit excessive. I think the biggest problem with the abuse is not that its totally repugnant by our internal standards, but that it cost us PR with the arab world for a generation. Doesn't anyone think that's a problem?
Lastly, that senator seems to think that the people who killed nick berg are the people we're apologizing to are the people we abused are the enemy. Seems to be unable to make the distinction that Arabs come in different flavors. Obviously the killers and the terrorists and the combatants in Iraq are enemies--I don't see how continuing to piss off the general Arab public, aka the al qaeda recruitment block, is going to help us in the long run.
I recommend people who haven't yet see "The fog of war" which is basically Mcnamara's memoir, do so. Here's a guy who watched and directed our military policy from WW2 to vietnam, and one of his 10 lessons is--to deal with the middle eastern terrorists, we must be able to empathize with them--not extend them our sympathies, but understand them. He blames our failure to do this for our failure in Vietnam. But there really are no valid comparisons between vietnam, and iraq, right?
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
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I don't know, Ian. It's a good question.The hand wringing is a bit excessive. I think the biggest problem with the abuse is not that its totally repugnant by our internal standards, but that it cost us PR with the arab world for a generation. Doesn't anyone think that's a problem?
But let's take this another step farther. Imagine what Europe must have thought when a special prosecutor spent millions and millions trying to impeach a popularly-elected president for getting oral sex in the oval office. Bill Clinton was no choir boy. But the outrage over lieing about sex in a Whitewater real estate investigation had to make this country look pretty damn silly over in Europe, where "on the side" is an artform. It made it look exactly like what it was - a politcal witch hunt.
So, we lost PR in the Arab world over how we treated prisoners? By their own standards, that's a pretty damn silly proposition.
But what do I know, I'm just calling it like I see it.
To me the whole thing is nauseating political BS.
- Billfrom Casablanca...
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[A croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
Captain Renault: [aloud] Everybody out at once!
We didn't lose PR for mistreating someone in a generic way. We lost it by
1) mistreating them by sexually humiliating them.
2) being hypocrites
I for one would much rather wear some panties on my head than get the stuffing beat out of me, but we did those things for a reason. We were well aware that these fighters (at least aligned with those who claim to be ready to fearlessly die for their cause) had an achilles heel of being totally messed up by their gender issues and insecurities. Maybe we got some info out of deliberately exploiting this, but we can't be surprised that the culture we deliberately targeted was less than pleased.
1) mistreating them by sexually humiliating them.
2) being hypocrites
I for one would much rather wear some panties on my head than get the stuffing beat out of me, but we did those things for a reason. We were well aware that these fighters (at least aligned with those who claim to be ready to fearlessly die for their cause) had an achilles heel of being totally messed up by their gender issues and insecurities. Maybe we got some info out of deliberately exploiting this, but we can't be surprised that the culture we deliberately targeted was less than pleased.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
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benzocaine
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I have no argument that what happened at Abu Garib prison was wrong. I just wanted to put that out here first.We were well aware that these fighters (at least aligned with those who claim to be ready to fearlessly die for their cause) had an achilles heel of being totally messed up by their gender issues and insecurities. Maybe we got some info out of deliberately exploiting this, but we can't be surprised that the culture we deliberately targeted was less than pleased.
From what I understand there is absolutely zero evidence that the troops that did these acts were following orders to. If anyone knows otherwise please post this proof. Until then, in my mind they were ill trained rouge soldiers acting out of the darker side of human nature. Lets be real here. This sort of thing has happened to prisoners since mankind climbed out of the trees and stood upright. It happened in WW2 ,WW1, Civil War ect.. They just didn't have the media we have today, and negative press about your own troops could get you hung for sedition.
Sadly this apears to confirm to these people what they have always believed, and that is that America is the Great Satan, and we are morally corrupt.... infadels.
They will soon forget all the good we have done for them. Lets just pull our troops out and let them work out their own issues.(I'm kidding)-
benzocaine
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Purgery is Purgery Bill. If you or I commit it we get jailed.Imagine what Europe must have thought when a special prosecutor spent millions and millions trying to impeach a popularly-elected president for getting oral sex in the oval office. Bill Clinton was no choir boy. But the outrage over lieing about sex in a Whitewater real estate investigation had to make this country look pretty damn silly over in Europe
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Gene DeMambro
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I dunno, Ben.
There continues to be mounting evidence that someone, somewhere along the line gave orders for, or at least allowed, such activity to take place. This reaches to the highest level of government - Pres. Bush even asked for guidance from the DOJ on what is allowable. And the administration is playing games with the prisoners status - POW, enemy combatabt, etc.
But the waters get more muddied as the soldiers being brought to answer for these crimes are claiming they were "following orders"...yet haven't named the person or persons giving those illegal ordes.
Still much to be determined...
Gene
There continues to be mounting evidence that someone, somewhere along the line gave orders for, or at least allowed, such activity to take place. This reaches to the highest level of government - Pres. Bush even asked for guidance from the DOJ on what is allowable. And the administration is playing games with the prisoners status - POW, enemy combatabt, etc.
But the waters get more muddied as the soldiers being brought to answer for these crimes are claiming they were "following orders"...yet haven't named the person or persons giving those illegal ordes.
Still much to be determined...
Gene
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jorvik
quote
"But let's take this another step farther. Imagine what Europe must have thought when a special prosecutor spent millions and millions trying to impeach a popularly-elected president for getting oral sex in the oval office. Bill Clinton was no choir boy. But the outrage over lieing about sex in a Whitewater real estate investigation had to make this country look pretty damn silly over in Europe, where "on the side" is an artform. It made it look exactly like what it was - a politcal witch hunt."
well as the only "European" here you can have my two penny worth
Americans do not understand Europe or the "English".....with regards Clinton, most of us regarded him as "Cheesey" and obnoxious...and we couldn't believe how a nation ( As great as America) could vote in such an obvious lying sleazball.....I mean if he is going to lie to, and cheat on his wife in that way.....how the hell is he going to treat the American people
just the Smile made my toes curl.......... 
Yuk!
But we have his cloned DNA.....and it has been made incarnate
in the form of Tony Blair.....another cheesey lying sleazball whose sun is now waning 
"But let's take this another step farther. Imagine what Europe must have thought when a special prosecutor spent millions and millions trying to impeach a popularly-elected president for getting oral sex in the oval office. Bill Clinton was no choir boy. But the outrage over lieing about sex in a Whitewater real estate investigation had to make this country look pretty damn silly over in Europe, where "on the side" is an artform. It made it look exactly like what it was - a politcal witch hunt."
well as the only "European" here you can have my two penny worth
Americans do not understand Europe or the "English".....with regards Clinton, most of us regarded him as "Cheesey" and obnoxious...and we couldn't believe how a nation ( As great as America) could vote in such an obvious lying sleazball.....I mean if he is going to lie to, and cheat on his wife in that way.....how the hell is he going to treat the American people
just the Smile made my toes curl.......... Yuk!But we have his cloned DNA.....and it has been made incarnate
in the form of Tony Blair.....another cheesey lying sleazball whose sun is now waning Agreed that war is in certain aspects always atrocious and that atrocities (and far lesser offenses as we are discussing here) are frequent occurances. One thing that had set America apart, though, has been our recent attempts to avoid civilian casualties in situations where civilian casualities are anticipated. We've invented laser guided bombs where we used to rely on firebombings of cities and napalm. This sets us apart, with crystal clarity, from the losers for whom civilian casualties are objectives.
The analogous strategy in imprisonment is just, geneva convention compliant, but not coddling management over our prisoners to set us apart from the losers, who torture and kill at will. We missed a good chance to maintain this distinction. We've become a lot like israel to most arabs, and that's not good for us. Israel, back in the day, had the look of a country under siege, and now it looks like a squabbler. They lost the white hat / black hat distinction and that hasn't served their cause.
As for responsibility here, it'd be nice to have a president who could stand up and say:
Yes, we traded arms for hostages--my fault.
Yup, I had sex with that woman, monica lewinsky. Sorry, Hill.
Oh, we knew about those abuses months and months ago and did nothing about it--oops. I'm sorry (in my first TV appearnace, not the second). And Yes, I did sleep with that woman, Monica Halliburton (etc).
It is physically possible for someone to take responsibility--Kennedy took the blame for Bay of Pigs even tho he was just following earlier president's plans. These days, tho, we've got demented or deceptive presidents instead.
The analogous strategy in imprisonment is just, geneva convention compliant, but not coddling management over our prisoners to set us apart from the losers, who torture and kill at will. We missed a good chance to maintain this distinction. We've become a lot like israel to most arabs, and that's not good for us. Israel, back in the day, had the look of a country under siege, and now it looks like a squabbler. They lost the white hat / black hat distinction and that hasn't served their cause.
As for responsibility here, it'd be nice to have a president who could stand up and say:
Yes, we traded arms for hostages--my fault.
Yup, I had sex with that woman, monica lewinsky. Sorry, Hill.
Oh, we knew about those abuses months and months ago and did nothing about it--oops. I'm sorry (in my first TV appearnace, not the second). And Yes, I did sleep with that woman, Monica Halliburton (etc).
It is physically possible for someone to take responsibility--Kennedy took the blame for Bay of Pigs even tho he was just following earlier president's plans. These days, tho, we've got demented or deceptive presidents instead.
--Ian
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benzocaine
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I dunno either GeneThere continues to be mounting evidence that someone, somewhere along the line gave orders for, or at least allowed, such activity to take place
Until then I'll try and not be entrenched completely on my position that those soldiers acted alone. Doesn't it make sense though that they try and blame their actions on the CIA or whoever else it is they are scapegoating? Many a Nazi did that after WW2.
Gene, maybee you can put some of that mounting evidence up as a link or two.
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Bill Glasheen
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Ben and Jorvik
No argument that Clinton lied under oath. No argument that he's a sleezeball. After all he's a lawyer; that says it all.
It's just that the investigation was about Whitewater and real estate. How in the hell did anyone bring it to an investigation about Bill Clinton's sex life? I'll tell you how. The investigation had nothing to do with uncovering the truth about a bad real estate deal. It was all about trying to get Clinton.
That's my point. If the police wanted to "get" you or I badly enough, they just might be able to do it. Imagine if they could come in your home and review all your records, or interview all your friends and former girlfriends/boyfriends. How many of us live so purely that they wouldn't have something in their life they'd rather not have broadcast on the 6:30 news? NOBODY!!!
The constitution is supposed to protect people against unreasonable searches, witchhunts, etc.
Same about Abu Grahib prison. Nobody in the press gives a tinker's damn any more that an innocent civilian was executed by having his head slowly sawed off in front of a camera. Nobody seems to be horrified by the acts of suicide bombers that kill innocent civilians. Everybody's forgotten about 3000 killed in the WTC, and Shia being gassed because they disagreed with Saddam. Somehow we give these cockroaches a pass. But put some underwear on somebody's head in prison and get a girl to laugh at the size of your weenie, and suddenly we have Democrats wringing their hands and Al Jezeera characterizing us as The Great Satan they always knew we were.
Why? Because these folks aren't interested in justice. They're interested in trashing George W, or trashing Republicans, or trashing the United States, or trashing western-style democracy. No matter how good the U.S. of A. was in Iraq, or how right they might have been in going there, or how much better the average Iraqi is today, certain individuals were going to find something to be shocked about. Shocked, I tell you!
Give me a friggin break!
Good thing we can leave the hystrionics to Teddy Kennedy. After all, he's such a pure guy...
- Bill
No argument that Clinton lied under oath. No argument that he's a sleezeball. After all he's a lawyer; that says it all.
It's just that the investigation was about Whitewater and real estate. How in the hell did anyone bring it to an investigation about Bill Clinton's sex life? I'll tell you how. The investigation had nothing to do with uncovering the truth about a bad real estate deal. It was all about trying to get Clinton.
That's my point. If the police wanted to "get" you or I badly enough, they just might be able to do it. Imagine if they could come in your home and review all your records, or interview all your friends and former girlfriends/boyfriends. How many of us live so purely that they wouldn't have something in their life they'd rather not have broadcast on the 6:30 news? NOBODY!!!
The constitution is supposed to protect people against unreasonable searches, witchhunts, etc.
Same about Abu Grahib prison. Nobody in the press gives a tinker's damn any more that an innocent civilian was executed by having his head slowly sawed off in front of a camera. Nobody seems to be horrified by the acts of suicide bombers that kill innocent civilians. Everybody's forgotten about 3000 killed in the WTC, and Shia being gassed because they disagreed with Saddam. Somehow we give these cockroaches a pass. But put some underwear on somebody's head in prison and get a girl to laugh at the size of your weenie, and suddenly we have Democrats wringing their hands and Al Jezeera characterizing us as The Great Satan they always knew we were.
Why? Because these folks aren't interested in justice. They're interested in trashing George W, or trashing Republicans, or trashing the United States, or trashing western-style democracy. No matter how good the U.S. of A. was in Iraq, or how right they might have been in going there, or how much better the average Iraqi is today, certain individuals were going to find something to be shocked about. Shocked, I tell you!
Give me a friggin break!
Good thing we can leave the hystrionics to Teddy Kennedy. After all, he's such a pure guy...
- Bill
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Gene DeMambro
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Who's forgotten about the 3,000 killed at the WTC, Bill? The US Military is still in Afghanistan in hot pursuit of Bin Laden and his followers. The USA Patriot Act still continues to be a hot button issue, and was passed in the wake of the terrorist infiltration that casued the 9/11 attacks. Many an Al Qaeda enemy combatant are being held in US custody - either here or abroad. Which of these cockroaches are given a pass? I don't follow.
Who's forgoten about Saddam's gassing the Shias? Last I checked, he's been captured and the appropriate authorities are using due process to bring him to trial and justice - as well as members of his cabinet. Which of these cockroaches are given a pass? I don't follow.
It's too bad that people's perceptions about Abu Grahib are just that we put some underwear on somebody's head in prison and got a girl to laugh at the size of his weenie. What about the prisoners shuttled from ward to ward, off the official roster of inmates, in order to hide them from inspectors from the Red Cross? What of the use of attack dogs? What of the sexual abuse. And if all we did was put some underwear on somebody's head in prison and got a girl to laugh at the size of his weenie (by implication isn't all that big of a deal), then how come photos of the prisoner abuse are so horrifying they were only shown to members of Congress in behind closed doors, with many members visibly shocked after viewing them?
What what of the soldier who has already plead guilty to charges of abusing those in his custody?
And it is still an unsettled question how good the U.S. of A. was in Iraq, or how right they might have been in going there.
And there you go again, trashing lawyers....
Ben,
May I suggest a search of archived news articles on http://cnn.com , or any other news service of your choosing? Many helpful articles. I may also suggest perusal of the newspapers daily. In the last two weeks, the papers told us that Pres. Bush sought advice from the DOJ on what is acceptable "manipulation" of prisoners and what is torture. We also learned thet Pres. Bush consulted a lawyer about the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame. Plame is the wife of Joseph Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador and career Foreign Service officer.
Gene
Who's forgoten about Saddam's gassing the Shias? Last I checked, he's been captured and the appropriate authorities are using due process to bring him to trial and justice - as well as members of his cabinet. Which of these cockroaches are given a pass? I don't follow.
It's too bad that people's perceptions about Abu Grahib are just that we put some underwear on somebody's head in prison and got a girl to laugh at the size of his weenie. What about the prisoners shuttled from ward to ward, off the official roster of inmates, in order to hide them from inspectors from the Red Cross? What of the use of attack dogs? What of the sexual abuse. And if all we did was put some underwear on somebody's head in prison and got a girl to laugh at the size of his weenie (by implication isn't all that big of a deal), then how come photos of the prisoner abuse are so horrifying they were only shown to members of Congress in behind closed doors, with many members visibly shocked after viewing them?
What what of the soldier who has already plead guilty to charges of abusing those in his custody?
And it is still an unsettled question how good the U.S. of A. was in Iraq, or how right they might have been in going there.
And there you go again, trashing lawyers....
Ben,
May I suggest a search of archived news articles on http://cnn.com , or any other news service of your choosing? Many helpful articles. I may also suggest perusal of the newspapers daily. In the last two weeks, the papers told us that Pres. Bush sought advice from the DOJ on what is acceptable "manipulation" of prisoners and what is torture. We also learned thet Pres. Bush consulted a lawyer about the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame. Plame is the wife of Joseph Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador and career Foreign Service officer.
Gene
