Farenheit 9/11

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benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Has he ever said it's bad just to be rich? As far as I can tell the only thing he's said is that it's bad to be rich and then screw people as hard as you can for just a little more.
Here's something from Farenheit 9/11


(Bush standing at the head of a banquet table amongst tuxedo clad people)(Bush speaks)

"I stand here amongst the haves (Bush smirk) ....... and the have mores" (crowd erupts in glutonous belly laughter) pause/ Bush smirk Some call you the social elite.... Bush warm smile .... I call you my base (Thundering roaring applause and laughter) Bush $hit eating grin


That makes an impression.

Or how about the part in the movie when Bush states to the camera how we must fight terrorism on all fronts, and right after he says now watch this backswing, and hits a golf ball like he hasn't a real care in the world.

It doesn't take much to make Bush look like an A hole.
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Benzocaine,

Just an FYI - the Bush quote about fighting terrorism on all fronts was not made in reference to Al-Quaida or to Iraq and Mr. Hussein - that comment was said during a Q & A about the Palestine, Isralie conflict.

I think folks know that I'm not a huge fan of Bush, but I do think it's important to pay attention to how Michael Moore has consciously constructed the film to meet his end message goals.

He's doing his best to show you what he thinks is Bush at his worst. I somebody wanted to make a film showing me at all my worst moments I couldn't come off as very likeable either.

Try to take the Bush examples and apply them to other politicans. Who is your local senator snuggling up with in order to keep his campaign coffers full? Who's sitting on the school board because they own most of the town? Money and politics are inextricably linked in the US.
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cxt
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Post by cxt »

Anyone else notice that Moores carefully crafted persona of the scuffy, blue jean wearing, "everyman."

Is morphing into a tailored suit, carefully trimmed beard/goatee, Orsen Wells look.

Its also worth mentioning that one of the best selling books in France is another supposed "factual" account of how the entire 9/11 events were actually the result of an Isreal/Jewish plot.
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Yep,

More and more is coming out about how Moore plays fast and loose with the facts.

There are pleanty of things said that can't be disputed though.

Well, I'm done with the net for a while. I'll be away from computers for about 4 days. They'll have to strap me to a bed while I go throught the physical withdrawals.. but I'll live :lol:
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Hi, folks.

I've been traveling (Baltimore this week) and only focusing on the Moore spillover in my Spiderman II thread.

Some of my assertions have been challenged. At least now though the dialogue is more thoughtful.

I have just a few things to add here.

First....

Whether or not the U.S. violated international or domestic law can easily be disputed.

Saddam and his Baathist regime violated so many U.N. resolutions with "or else" at the end that I lost count. No hyperbole here; this is fact.

Yes, the Bush administration was itching for a fight with Hussein. If you follow the U.N. record, you will see that it went about a process to do that - legally. But of course this will be debated. Fine. One way or another, Saddam proved the U.N. to be an entirely irrelevant organization when it comes to enforcing international law.

No, Gerge W did not do this as skillfully as his dad did in Desert Storm. No, the case for war wasn't quite as obvious.

As for domestic law, well it took until THIS WEEK to work out some of the details on the rights of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. Their rights were NOT clearly defined in either the Geneva convention or U.S. law because the Taliban fighters mostly were either not Afghan nor from Afghanistan.

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Meanwhile....

The violations of Abu Ghraib are being settled in a U.S. court of law. Already some participants have pleaded guilty.

And no, I haven't seen evidence (as was suggested earlier in this thread) that the specific actions in Abu Ghraib were ordered from the top.

Yes, the administration did a THOROUGH analysis of what was and was not legal during interrogation of various prisoners in various situations (country of origin, covered under the Geneva convention or not, etc., etc.). That's their job - to discuss, debate, and interpret domestic and international law.

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As for whether or not Saddam was capable of attacking the U.S. or actually DID attack the U.S., well I can easily argue those points.

Why is it that the U.S. and Britain were so anxious to attack Saddam, and the rest of the world not? Think about it.... Times up!

THEY were the ones protecting the "no fly zones" in Northern and Southern Iraq, preventing further genocide. THEY were the ones spending the money, and putting their soldiers at risk. THEY were the ones that Saddam shot at on a regular basis - just to prove that he could with impunity. Or so he thought...

It's convenient for the rest of the world to forget both the genocide of the Kurds and the Shia, and the effort that the U.S. and Britain were putting into the peace in the area. One victim of the Unabomber likes to call this the "Holocaust shrug."

What's the connection between 9/11 and Iraq? Think about it... Times up!

It had nothing to do with al Qaeda per se.

It had nothing to do with Osama.

It had nothing to do with missiles being fired across the Atlantic to the U.S.

September 11 proved that a country could be attacked with massive and decisive force: 1) without an army, 2) without the flag of a country, 3) without military hardware, and 4) without conventional weapons. Centers of commerce (the world trade center), the postal system (the anthrax mailings), government (the 4th plane that never hit its target of the Whitehouse or Congress) and the military (the Pentagon) were shown to be alarmingly vulnerable. Thousands of innocents were killed in the effort, which achieved the desired terrorist force multiplicity objective.

Saddam did not need conventional military sources to deliver a decisive military blow to the U.S. All he needed were a handful of people who hated the U.S. (no problem there) and a little bit of nasty material (nuclear, biological, chemical, etc.) which he either had or could build again on a moment's notice with his abundance of "dual use" technology.

Imagine what one crop duster and some chemical and/or biological material could do to a city.

Imagine what a little bit of biological warfare material could still do in the U.S. mail system.

Imagine what one dirty bomb can do in a major city.

It's not a matter of IF this will happen. It's a matter of when and where. I wish I was wrong.
June 18, 2004 | The Associated Press

ASTANA, Kazakhstan (AP) - Russia gave the Bush administration intelligence that suggested Saddam Hussein's regime was preparing attacks against the United States and its interests abroad before the Iraq war, President Vladimir Putin said Friday. Putin said he couldn't comment on how critical the Russians' information was in the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq. However, he said the intelligence didn't cause Russia to waver from its firm opposition to the war.

"Indeed, after Sept. 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, the Russian special services ... received information that officials from Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States and outside it against the U.S. military and other interests," Putin said.

"Despite that information about terrorist attacks being prepared by Saddam's regime, Russia's position on Iraq remains unchanged," Putin said.
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- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I posted this on my own forum in a related thread. I thought it worth re-posting here.

- Bill

**********************************************************

I paid for this article online. Apparently the NY Post says I don't have the right to redistribute, but then I'm not making money off of this. Academia retains a right to copy and distribute material for nonprofit pedagogical purposes - particularly when the original piece is out of print or otherwise not easily accessible.
MOORE'S THE PITY - FAHRENHEIT'S FICTIONS
JONATHAN FOREMAN New York Post. New York, N.Y.: Jun 23, 2004. pg. 027
Full Text (1017 words)
Copyright 2004, The New York Post. All Rights Reserved)

For all its clever slickness, Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" does not stack up to such brilliant but evil art as Leni Riefenstahl's propaganda films for Hitler. But it is art in the sense that any piece of effective political propaganda - Julius Streicher's "Der Sturmer" magazine, the famous Che poster from Alberto Korda's photo, even the anti-Goldwater mushroom-cloud TV ad put out by LBJ - can be taken as art.

Alert critics will doubtless point out its artistic flaws. For example, its most moving sequence - which features audio from the World Trade Center attacks played over a black screen - is a direct ripoff of Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu's 11-minute segment in the 2003 film "9/11/01"

What makes "Fahrenheit 9/11" notable is that feature-length movie- house agitprop is a relatively rare and new thing, and that so far it has been treated (for instance by the Cannes Film Festival jury) as something more than the clever (if breathtakingly sleazy) political propaganda that it is.

And the film does offer some valuable lessons for everyone - though not in its topics: 9/11, Osama bin Laden, Iraq, the "stolen" 2000 election, the Bush administration's fondness for the Saudis, the U.S. armed forces' supposed recruiting from the "starving" unemployed masses or any of the mutually exclusive conspiracy theories the movie puts forward.

No, the lessons of "Fahrenheit 9/11" have to do with the general degradation of our political discourse, the gross dishonesty of our most feted "documentary" filmmaker and with what Michael Moore's super-popularity in Hollywood and France adds to what we already know about the ignorance and intellectual poverty of the movie industry and the pathetic, spiteful hostility of our French "allies."

That said, the Bush administration might want to consider how the Department of Homeland Security's silly color-coded terror alerts play neatly into the hands of its most paranoid or devious opponents (especially when those alerts coincide with adverse poll results).

And the "forgotten" soldiers who have lost arms and legs in the Iraq and Afghan wars (there's some moving footage of amputees) should neither be forgotten nor remembered only by people like Moore, who would use that suffering for their own ends.

But you certainly don't have to be a fan of Bush or his policies to be offended by "Fahrenheit 9/11" lies, half-lies and distortions, or by Moore's shockingly low expectations of his audience:

* Moore's favorite anti-administration interviewee is former National Security Council aide Richard Clarke. Yet the film never mentions that it was Clarke who gave the order to spirit the bin Laden family out of America immediately after 9/11. Moore makes much of this mystery; why didn't he ask Clarke about it ?

* At one point of the film, he portrays GIs as moronic savages who work themselves up with music before setting out to kill. Later, he depicts them as proletarian victims of a cynical ruling class, who deserve sympathy and honor for their sacrifice.

* The film's amusing (if bordering on racist) Saudi-bashing sequences rely for their effect on the audience having forgotten that President Bill Clinton was every bit as friendly with Prince Bandar (or "Bandar Bush," as Moore calls him) and the Saudi monarchy as his successor. In general, the movie is packed with points that Moore assumes his audience will never check, or are either lies or cleverly hedged half-lies:

* Moore says that the Saudis have paid the Bush family $1.4 billion. But wait -the Bushes aren't billionaires. If you watch the film a second time you'll note Moore saying that they paid $1.4 billion to the Bush family and (added very quietly and quickly) its friends and associates.

* Moore asserts that the Afghan war was fought only to enable the Unocal company to build a pipeline. In fact, Unocal dropped that idea back in August 1998. Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are looking at the idea now, but nothing has come of it so far, and in any case Unocal has nothing to do with it.

* In a "congressmen with no kids at war" stunt, Moore claims that no one in Congress has a son or daughter fighting in America's armed services, then approaches several congressmen in the street and asks them to sign up and send their kids to Iraq. His claim would certainly surprise Sgt. Brooks Johnson of the 101st Airborne, the son of Sen. Tim Johnson (D-S.D.). And for that matter the active- duty sons of Sen. Joseph Biden and Attorney General John Ashcroft, among others.

The most offensive sequence in "Fahrenheit 9/11"'s long two hours lasts only a few minutes. It's Moore's file-footage depiction of happy Iraq before the Americans began their supposedly pointless invasion. You see men sitting in cafes, kids flying kites, women shopping. Cut to bombs exploding at night.

What Moore presumably doesn't know, or simply doesn't care about, is that the building you see being blown up is the Iraqi Ministry of Defense in Baghdad. Not many children flew kites there. It was in a part of the city that ordinary Iraqis weren't allowed to visit - on pain of death.

And if Moore weren't a (left-wing) version of the fat, bigoted, ignorant Americans his European friends love to mock, he'd know that prewar Iraq was ruled by a regime that had forced a sixth of its population into fearful exile, that hanged dissidents (real dissidents, not people like Susan Sontag and Tim Robbins) from meathooks and tortured them with blowtorches, and filled thousands of mass graves with the bodies of its massacred citizens.

Yes, children played, women shopped and men sat in cafes while that stuff went on - just as people did all those normal things in Somoza's Nicaragua, Duvalier's Haiti and for that matter Nazi Germany, and as they do just about everywhere, including in Iraq today.

Moore has defended deliberate inaccuracies in his prior films by claiming that satirists don't have to tell the exact truth. Fair enough. But if you take the lies, half-lies and distortions out "Fahrenheit 9/11," there isn't much of anything left.
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Panther
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Post by Panther »

Valkenar wrote:
Panther says:
> I find it interesting that the ultra-left-wing media,

Out of curiosity, is there such a thing as ultra-super-mega-left wing or something? You're going to run out of amplifying adjectives if you want to describe the range of left-wingededness in this country when the media is already dubbed ultra.
Naaaaa... ;) While I do think that the majority of the media and hollywierd folks are basically two steps to the left of Stalin, I use the whole "ultra-left-wing" description with tongue firmly planted in cheek because of Hillary's comments about the "vast ultra-right-wing conspiracy".
As for the rest of your argumens Clinton did plenty of stupid-ass things. I couldn't care any less who he has sex with, but he signed some trash into law just like everyone else.
I generally believe that his infidelity is between him, his wife and his God (or lack thereof), HOWEVER he was her superior and the only reason there isn't a problem with it is because 1) the government has exempted itself from having to follow the same sexual coersion/harassment laws that everyone else must follow and 2) the "ultra-left-wing" folks over at NOW refuse to bad-mouth someone who takes their position on their pet issues. If the same act had been done by a conservative, there wouldn't have been an impeachment, they'd have gone straight to the lynching. But what I care about is the sale of military secrets to the highest bidder (Chinese) for money that went for the campaign and the library... Even all of the apologists (with a very few exceptions such as Carville) have jumped off the Clinton bandwagon since the last minute pardons and the despicable final days of the administration.
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Post by Mark Weitz »

This is a brief response to some of your points, Bill, but it's all I can find time for right now. Alas, the garage is beckoning me to clean it.

you said,
Why is it that the U.S. and Britain were so anxious to attack Saddam, and the rest of the world not? Think about it. Times up... THEY were the ones protecting the "no fly zones" in Northern and Southern Iraq, preventing further genocide. THEY were the ones spending the money, and putting their soldiers at risk. THEY were the ones that Saddam shot at on a regular basis - just to prove that he could with impunity. Or so he thought...
It's true they were the ones protecting the no fly zones, though I don't recall a single British and US plane being shot down (was there? I don't think so). It's nice they were protecting the Kurds though they were violating sovereign air space to do it so getting shot at is not exactly a big surprise (hello?) and it hardly seems that this was a reason for the US and Britain to invade. I really don't have all the answers but I've thought for some time that Blair really enjoys being Bush Jr.'s lap dog, the reasons for which may becom clear over time.

you said,

"It's convenient for the rest of the world to forget both the genocide of the Kurds and the Shia, and the effort that the U.S. and Britain were putting into the peace in the area. One victim of the Unabomber likes to call this the "Holocaust shrug."


I haven't forgotten by a long shot. Perhaps you'll think I'm being unfair by bringing up old news to discredit the current regime but you remember that Rumsfeld was an envoy under Reagan to Hussein and he and DOD at the time helped supply Saddam with the military intelligence to use WMD on Iranian troops and Kurdish villagers, who at the time were thought to be aiding the Iranians (no excuse of course for using those weapons on innocents or soldiers). Regan and Bush Sr. also engaged in trade, against the wishes of Congress, with this butcher both during and after the now famous Halabja massacre. Why? Why were they selling military equipment and information and engaging in other forms of trade with this monster? And why were the British, the French, and the Japanese doing the same? They're no saints either for helping to arm this devil. Rumsfeld is still with us. Personally, I think he, along with other countries, aided a known war criminal, as did Reagan's government. Why is Rumsfeld allowed to be in public office and can I really trust this guy to have good motives under the current US government?

As to the Shia, they made it clear to Bush Sr. that they, with US support at the tail end of Desert Storm, would gladly depose of Saddam and they tried through a bloody rebellion in which the US gave no support, and with their support the Shia could've got rid of Saddam. Instead many thousands of Shia were brutally murdered and tortured. One of my brother's-in-law who is a staunch Republican and kept uttering the mantra "nuke em" during the Iraq war, also had trouble figuring this out. Why? Why did Bush Sr. do this? One theory is that, having soundly beaten the @#$!@ out of Saddam he decided in the end that they were better off with Saddam in than with him out simply in the interest of regional stability. That's one theory but honestly I don't know why Bush Sr. did this. He had more than a good opportunity, with troops and equipment already staged, to take Saddam out.

All this is to say that things are more complicated than they appear. The British and the US are not saints and they're motives are complex.
September 11 proved that a country could be attacked with massive and decisive force: 1) without an army, 2) without the flag of a country, 3) without military hardware, and 4) without conventional weapons. Centers of commerce (the world trade center), the postal system (the anthrax mailings), government (the 4th plane that never hit its target of the Whitehouse or Congress) and the military (the Pentagon) were shown to be alarmingly vulnerable. Thousands of innocents were killed in the effort, which achieved the desired terrorist force multiplicity objective.
You're right. 9/11 proved that with enough planning and some box cutters you can terrorize America and kill thousands of innocents. But this in itself can't be allowed to be the justification for war and here I'll refer to comments I made earlier as to why I believe that there was sufficient intelligence to not invade, and again this is a non-partisan issue as the number of Republican and Democrat officials who question the intelligence are legion. Even before 9/11 Powel and Condoleeza Rice said he wasn't a threat and 9/11 didn't make him one. But it did give Bush Jr. a pretext. And leading up to the war critics within the CIA, weapons inspectors, as well as Brent Snowcroft of all people (adviser to Bush Sr. if I'm not mistaken), were saying the case wasn't good enough and other options focussing on further containment are available.

[so much for cleaining the garage. It'll be there tomorrow]

Imagine what one crop duster and some chemical and/or biological material could do to a city.

Imagine what a little bit of biological warfare material could still do in the U.S. mail system.

Imagine what one dirty bomb can do in a major city.

It's not a matter of IF this will happen. It's a matter of when and where. I wish I was wrong.
I understand what you're saying and I wish it wasn't so either, but this is not a case or justification for squandering the treasury, sending young soldiers to die, and bombing a country, with all the horrors that result. Everybody understood the Osama connection and the world should be entirely behind the US on this. The Iraq connection was never solid and as I've said already, I, along with many in the CIA and non-civilian military, wish that the resources had been used to focus on Afghanistan, the bordering areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Saudi connection, etc. Ironically, Iraq has turned into a training ground for Al Qaeda and a bunch of other thugs and terrorists. The region is de-stabalized and who knows how things will turn out after the "handover", though extending the term of US soldiers in Iraq may or may not help. However, I see your point that Al Qaeda is de-centralized and putting all the eggs in the Afghanistan basket may not have been a good idea either.
Saddam did not need conventional military sources to deliver a decisive military blow to the U.S. All he needed were a handful of people who hated the U.S. (no problem there) and a little bit of nasty material (nuclear, biological, chemical, etc.) which he either had or could build again on a moment's notice with his abundance of "dual use" technology.
You'd be right except that it was singularly, as all the evidence suggests, Osama and his Saudi hijacker friends. As far as Iraq goes, simply because someone can do something does not mean that they have, are, or will do something. If Bush Jr. is really concerend, perhaps he should have been focussing his energies more on Pakistan and N. Korea, who have a well established reputation for trading in fissionable material and bomb making know-how. I'm not opposed to war on terror. I'm opposed to incompetent, self-serving leaders who manipulate the emotional pain of their citizens to justify a war that I believe was totally unnecessary. I and most of the world supported Bush Sr. in Desert Storm and wished he had taken Saddam out when he had more than a good chance. But Bush Jr. proved something: that if you claim something often enough to be true people will accept it and as much as Michael Moore is an idiot for insulting his own people and telling half-truths and lies (perhaps) for his own personal gain, they're not in the same ball park as the heap of half-truths and lies that W. served up for Congress and the rest of the world.

As to the presence of dual use technology and a variety of stuff that Saddam could've used, you'd have to bomb the planet to rid the world of countries with terrorists that can get their hands on this stuff and may one day use it against innocents. But it's telling that long after Saddam ceased to be an ally of the US, got bombed on a few occasions post Desert Storm, had an embargo put on him, etc. he never (as far as we know) lifted a finger against the US or Britain (shooting at planes in your air space doesn't count, sorry. Show me a country that doesn't shoot at planes, especially enemy planes, in its air space). Why? Because despite the fact that he's a freakin' devil, he's not stupid. He knew that if he so much as did anything to threaten the US, directly or indirectly, Iraq would be turned into a parking lot. The CIA never bought the story that he would give weapons to Al Qaeda because Osama hated Saddam and considered Saddam's secular form of Islam to be an abomination. The old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not always hold water and the US military intelligence folks have gone on record saying that Saddam would probably not want to give weapons to the people that would likely come back at a later date and annihilate him. He was an SOB but he was smart, up to a point :roll: .
June 18, 2004 | The Associated Press

ASTANA, Kazakhstan (AP) - Russia gave the Bush administration intelligence that suggested Saddam Hussein's regime was preparing attacks against the United States and its interests abroad before the Iraq war, President Vladimir Putin said Friday. Putin said he couldn't comment on how critical the Russians' information was in the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq. However, he said the intelligence didn't cause Russia to waver from its firm opposition to the war.
This could mean almost anything. "Suggested" is vague and with no qualifying information it's not convincing as evidence. Was this article in response to something else? Why is Putin saying this now? And even if he's being truthful, the evidence couldn't have been impressive if it didn't change his mind on supporting the US. Then again, maybe Putin was worried that the war would disrupt the oil contracts he had with Saddam. Always that damn money getting in the way.

Regardless, I hope US soldiers come home and get out of that meat grinder. Too many have died already or have to live with life-long injuries. I hope now that the "handover" has occurred things will quiet down, though I won't hold my breath. And it gladdened my heart to read in the paper this morning the following words from an Iraqi judge addressing Saddam: "you are no longer in US custody. You are now in Iraqi custody. Good morning".

Mark
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

It's nice they were protecting the Kurds though they were violating sovereign air space to do it so getting shot at is not exactly a big surprise (hello?) and it hardly seems that this was a reason for the US and Britain to invade.
Not really. Correct me if I am wrong, Mark, but the U.N. supported the enforcement of the "no fly zones."

The planes were shot at routinely. Should we wait until they get shot down? In any self defense scenario, you are not obligated to wait until the BG injures you.
I haven't forgotten by a long shot. Perhaps you'll think I'm being unfair by bringing up old news...
The old news is germaine. Lots of "born again virgins" in the world. The U.S. and Britain have blood on their hands.
Why did Bush Sr. do this? One theory is that, having soundly beaten the @#$!@ out of Saddam he decided in the end that they were better off with Saddam in than with him out simply in the interest of regional stability. That's one theory but honestly I don't know why Bush Sr. did this. He had more than a good opportunity, with troops and equipment already staged, to take Saddam out.
In Desert Storm, Bush senior did not have a mandate to go into Iraq and take Saddam out. The objective was to get them out of Kuwait (success) and to remove the WMDs (mostly a success).

And given the regional instability, it was plausible to think that the balance of power between Iraq and Iran should not be upset too drastically. Saddam had just finished exterminating a million Iranians.

Indeed it would have been better for the Kurds and Shia to overrun Saddam themselves.

It didn't work out, did it? *****...

Most of the rest of your post is articulated so nicely that I do not wish to challenge it. It is a debate, and the debate rages on. History will judge the merit of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I believe right now that it's too soon to tell if it was the right thing to do.
I hope now that the "handover" has occurred things will quiet down, though I won't hold my breath.
Let's hope you are right, and that the cynical view will not hold true.

Image


I'm the eternal optimist. If the right thing could ever happen in that region, it likely will. It will just take time.
And it gladdened my heart to read in the paper this morning the following words from an Iraqi judge addressing Saddam: "you are no longer in US custody. You are now in Iraqi custody. Good morning".
It will be interesting!

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Mark Weitz
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Post by Mark Weitz »

Bill said,
In Desert Storm, Bush senior did not have a mandate to go into Iraq and take Saddam out. The objective was to get them out of Kuwait (success) and to remove the WMDs (mostly a success).

And given the regional instability, it was plausible to think that the balance of power between Iraq and Iran should not be upset too drastically. Saddam had just finished exterminating a million Iranians.

Indeed it would have been better for the Kurds and Shia to overrun Saddam themselves.

It didn't work out, did it? *****...
Interesting points. Looking back it seems, as you point out, that Bush Sr. didn't have this mandate and there was probably a concern that he'd squander the good will of coalition forces at the time by taking the war to the next level. Hind sight is certainly 20/20. Too bad the Kurds and Shia could not have accomplished this.

Looking ahead, there has been criticism from some camps about the US leaving thousands of troops behind after the handover. Then again, the same crititcs said they shouldn't leave the country entirely abandoned without some form of functioning military given the instability. Makes sense that some troops are there though I imagine many of them are upset at the longer tours of duty.

This will definitely be an interesting period for Iraq. The only thing that seems certain is Saddam's fate.

Mark
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Post by Arnisador84 »

Against my better judement (I'm not a big fan of arguing on the internet) I've decided to put in my two cents.

Farenheit 9/11 is a biased movie, and some of the things in it may border on untruths if not actually falling smack dab in the territory of lying. However, many of the posts on this very board aren't that accurate.
* In a "congressmen with no kids at war" stunt, Moore claims that no one in Congress has a son or daughter fighting in America's armed services, then approaches several congressmen in the street and asks them to sign up and send their kids to Iraq. His claim would certainly surprise Sgt. Brooks Johnson of the 101st Airborne, the son of Sen. Tim Johnson (D-S.D.). And for that matter the active- duty sons of Sen. Joseph Biden and Attorney General John Ashcroft, among others.
Attorney General John Ashcroft is not a member of congress: he is a member of the president's cabinet. Congress is made up of senators, representatives, and the vice president.

Moving on, I watched the movie. Those of us who haven't really don't have any credibility to complain about the movie.

Propaganda or not, there are things you cannot ignore in this movie. Why did we go into Iraq? Because there is a definate link between Al-Queda and Saddam? That's what Bush told us. But wait--Al-Queda didn't set up in Iraq until we moved in. Fantastic. Was it the weapons of mass destruction? Where? Say what you want, the facts are that we invaded the country, searched top to bottm, and we can't find any of them. Was it just to dethrone Saddam? Then tell the American people that is the reason--don't give us nonsense reasons. Let us decided according to what the truth is.

Bush is told that planes are flying into the tallest buildings in the United States. What does he do? Continue reading "My Pet Goat". Cany you name any other president that would continue is photo op with remarkable nonchalance while the country is sustaining worse casualties from a foreign attack than any other time in the history of the country?

About talking to the congressmen about signing up their kids for Iraq... I would like say first of all, that when Moore interviewed Heston, I thought he was out of line (although Heston didn't have a single suffficient answer to any of the questions). Is it not true that it's easier to agree with war if it isn't your kids being sent over? As Bush said about speculated upcoming opposition to the soldiers, "bring it on." 'But that's out of context!' you might say. You try putting that one in to a fair context.

I would ramble on more, but I'm hungry and I think this should be sufficient to prove my point anyway.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Good points, Andrew. Thanks for joining the fray.

We have to be careful here. Go back on my forum more than a year ago, and view the posts about why we should (or should not) invade Iraq BEFORE we actually went there. You'd be surprised at what you find. You may research my own forum and find those threads.

The skill of people of Moore's genre is in the use of the strawman tactic. Define your enemy's point of view for him, and then punch holes in the perspective. It's effective, but it doesn't fool people who are smart enough to do their homework. Moore is banking on fooling just enough people to accomplish his objective.

As for the shot of Bush reading to children and Moore's clever little clock timing what was going on, well it's a cheap shot. Period. What were you doing when someone came and told you that a plane flew into the WTC? Bush heard about the first plane before anyone knew about a second, and a third, and a fourth. And if nobody noticed in the film, it was obvious that Bush had an entire administration on the problem. That's why people were whispering in his ear, no?

As for him, well has anyone ever heard of multitasking? If I weren't able to do that, then I would have been fired at work long ago...

And just what was Bush doing in that kindergarten classroom after all? Oh yea... he was promoting literacy in a democratic society. Sounds like a worthy cause to me! It's the antidote to propaganda, fascism, and religious extremism. It's worth mentioning that the reason why I am a practicing martial artist at age fifty is partly due to President Kennedy's physical fitness initiatives in the school systems. These "innocent" initiatives can have far-reaching effects. How many people worked out in health clubs in the 1960s? How about today, and what is the age distribution? Amazing...

NOBODY knew what the hell was going on at that point in time. Most everyone looked like a deer in the headlamps. Admit it - 9/11 was a brilliant coup. So was Pearl Harbor. Give the enemy their due, and then smoke them.

Anyone who heard about that first plane was only speculating as to why it happened. Quick...how many linked it to Bin Laden, or terrorists trained in Afghanistan? Certainly not Michael Moore. By his own standard, I'm sure he'd look equally stupid at that very moment. Given his physical appearance he was probably busy stuffing his face with a McDonald's cheeseburger. Yes, that's a cheap shot as well. But fair is fair, no?

The goal of the movie was to make Bush look stupid. That's not hard to do for him, or for most people in government as well. Too bad Moore wasn't good enough to come up with a fair argument to do it. That's why I find the movie so objectionable.

Comedy? Yes. Entertainment? For some. Satire? Yes. Moving? Yes, at the expense of others to prove his point. Documentary? Nope...

But the choir is singing - just like another choir was singing when Clinton was in office and on the ropes facing Ken Starr. Is society better for it? Personally I'm disgusted by the character assassination, but happy for the dialogue.

My ideal movie? Half produced by Moore, and the other half done by Starr. And let them be the subject of each other's movies. Picture the R-rated plot - Starr's pathologic obsession with sex, and Moore as pimp for French prostit...I mean politicians.

Bring it on!

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Oh blah dee
Oh blah dah
Life goes ooooon RAH!


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Post by Arnisador84 »

I would say there is definately some merit to saying that Moore used some underhanded techniques in his movie. Such as the Fox news exec. 'calling the election', when in fact, media projections have nothing to do with the outcome of the election. I thought that was a poor thing to point out.

Bush promoting education? This is a problem for me though. Since my mother is an educator, she tells me quite often from her first hand experience the difference between Bush jr.'s policies towards education versus previous presidents. He cut educational funding and started the No Child Left Behind act, which is nonsense. Instead of providing funding for quality instruction, it instead threatens teachers to have their students up to a certain level or else. This or else includes removing funding for a school not doing well enough, effectivley forcing them to become a private school. Can you afford puting your kids through private school? Ask educators in your comunity about the quality difference between private and public schools. They will tell you that private schools don't have to meet any educational requirements. See how this works?

Also, you know what the act forgot to figure in? ESL (English as a Second Language) students and special ed. There's even more that I could fill an entire page with the facts about Bush's approach to education, but I digress.

As for the president just sitting there--maybe there isn't anything he could have done, and there were the right people trying to take care of the situation. But in my mind, he is the Commander in Chief of the military, and he was sitting there. Mostly, I just can't imagine sitting there while something like that just happened. I think the class would understand if Bush excused himself to tend to what might be considered an urgent matter.

And the Starr/Moore movie? That would be great. A transient-looking fatty and a closet pervert duking it out through the means of film would be hilarious.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I hear you...

Education is one of those problem areas - like medicine - that seems resistant to change.

I agree that Bush is no friend to the NEA.

There are things worth mentioning here though. Anyone interested in quality and outcomes - a modern, six sigma way to get things done - knows that you need first to measure and then to fix things when results aren't as they should be. We NEED to measure. We NEED to test students, and not give them a pass (literally) just for showing up. But what to do when a school doesn't make the grade? That's a good question. Six sigma advocates tell you to fix the system, and not to punish the workers.

I have mixed feelings about all this. My tax dollars pay for public schools, even though I have chosen to send my boys to private school. Why? Because education was and always will be a priority for my family. My brother-in-law has 3 homes, a BMW, and sends his kids to public school. I bought my first home at age 41, drive a minivan, and send my kids to private school. My dad sent all his 8 kids to private school, and drove a Rambler stationwagon.

Those of us who pay for private schools know (by test scores) that our students are doing far better than the national average. My older 11-year-old son scored in the 90th percentile or higher in all 16 categories of his most recent standardized test using a national scale, and was in the 60th percentile or higher on the private school scale. That should say it all, no?

I feel sorry for public school teachers, and only grumble a little when I get no benefit out of my tax dollars (and end up double paying). Their students aren't necessarily motivated to be there. Their parents - if they are around - aren't necessarily supportive of the students and of the teachers. And forget respect in some schools... Solution? Start by fixing problems at home. Make dads responsible for the sperm they let loose.

As for English as a second language, well I only know this. Studies show that dual language schools don't work. Emersion, while painful, produces the best results.

Good points though. In my view, the other half of the problem is that we don't pay teachers enough.

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Post by Arnisador84 »

Good points though. In my view, the other half of the problem is that we don't pay teachers enough.
Too true. Where do we get the money for this? Just thinking out loud here, but how much is the war on Iraq costing us?

Conditions for private school sounds much different where you live, but around where I live they are a complete joke. As a result, I'm always a bit on the cautious side where they are concerened.

ESL classes aren't dual language classes--they are classes designed to help students learn a variety of subjects (as well as English) in an environment that best fits their needs. Instead of the 'sink or swim' method, they are given instruction that builds off of the things they already understand. In psychology, this is referred to assimilation. Accomodation, learning new things without a familiar reference point, is something they already do a great deal of as part of a society that mostly speaks a language that they are not quite comfortable with.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I thought it needed saying.

Back on subject though, does anyone know what Bush sr. put in his autobiography about why he didn't want to launch a ground campaign in Iraq? Because he didn't want to end up entrenched in a prolonged occupation resulting in an unexeptable loss of human life. Sound familiar? Maybe Bush jr. should read more.
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