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 Post subject: The Real Deal
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:33 am 
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Well, I finally got to meet Rory Miller, and what a guy. In a totally hectic weeked for me (don't ask), I was walking out to my car and this guy yells after me. He asked me if I'm Mike Murphy and then introduced himself. I told him that I pictured him older and wiser looking (OOPS!).

Anyway, I didn't get to all of his seminars, but I did get to listen in on one of them, and I'll tell you something, those of us who teach jujitsu and think we have something special, have no idea. Rory gets to use his stuff in the "real" NHB arena...a prison. He was very interesting and made a lot of sense. What it comes down to is that we really don't have anything unless we use it for real. The sports judo, NHB, Sports Jujitsu, etc. are just activities to bide time. And this is NO knock on anyone, but let's be honest with ourselves, how many of us really use what we do?

Thanks Rory! It was a pleasure listening to you.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: The Real Deal
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:05 pm 
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mikemurphy wrote:
And this is NO knock on anyone, but let's be honest with ourselves, how many of us really use what we do?


I use quite a bit of what I do, what do you use against someone trying to take your head off on a normal basis? If I didnt feel 100% comfortable with what I was doing, I would find something else to do. Im happy with the effectiveness of what I do, are you?

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 Post subject: Re: The Real Deal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:12 am 
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Mike-

I really regret not being able to sit down with you for a couple of hours and learn about your system. I've enjoyed your insights and knowledge on the Forum very much in the last couple of years and not being able to follow up in person is one of my few low points for this Summer Fest.

However..


mikemurphy wrote:

What it comes down to is that we really don't have anything unless we use it for real.
Mike


This is horseshit, my friend. I can almost guarantee that you have 95% of what I have. The only thing missing is that I've had the opportunity to test it in a uncontrolled environment. That's given me perspective, not technique. A very little experience and you may find that you have 110%.

Rory


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 Post subject: real deal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:53 am 
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Joe and Rory,

Thanks for the input. Let me reply to them separately.

Joe,

I respect what you train for and the venue you compete in (I assume you are speaking about the NHB competition you do), but you are speaking of an activity that has rules no matter what they call it. Even with your comment about someone trying to take your head off, no one is really trying to kill someone in the ring, are they? You definately look comfortable with what you do, but when the day is done, and the match is over, you are still going to get back in your car, head home, and fall asleep on your nice, soft bed, because in the end you are still competing for something, and you and your competition can call it quits anytime they want. So, it's my belief we are talking about two different things hear (both of which I have no personal experience in mind you).

Rory,

I hear you my brother. I too wanted to sit with you for a few, but everytime I looked around you were surrounded by people who wanted your attention (it's good to be the king). I do hope you come back next year!

Now for my comments. Perspective and mindset is what I'm talking about. I can teach my dog technique. I honestly don't believe that's the hard part. Teaching the person to actually use it in a non-controlled environment such that you live in, or hand-to-combat in the service when everything is on the line, is where someone's mettle is certainly tested. Can they do it or not when the time comes down to it. I hope I never have to find out. I mean, I've been in my share of sparring matches, and randori, etc., but never one that had a more severe objective.

As I said before, you give a perspective that many of us, strike that, most of us have never had to deal with. We train our kata, do our randori, etc., and that's it. Some people, like Joe and Joe compete in what is probably the next closest thing, but they are in the minority. Thanks for the seminar and all the info. I do hope you come back next year for sure.

And just to set the book straight, you are young and wise looking :-)

mike


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:14 am 
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Quote:
As I said before, you give a perspective that many of us, strike that, most of us have never had to deal with. We train our kata, do our randori, etc., and that's it.


Well said, Mike.

But, as you know, you will be given an argument by the "dyed in the wool" traditionalist, who will argue that is all you need, and mushin will take care of the rest.

No wonder we have Joe Lewis voice this opinion at camp
Quote:
Joes opinion regarding some "traditional" karate training may not sit very well with some people. As it was fairly clear to me that honesty and open expression in which he shared was not favorable towards some aspects of what many of us do.


Not referring to us in particular, but to traditional training in general.

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 Post subject: Re: real deal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:52 pm 
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mikemurphy wrote:
I can teach my dog technique. I honestly don't believe that's the hard part. Teaching the person to actually use it in a non-controlled environment such that you live in, or hand-to-combat in the service when everything is on the line, is where someone's mettle is certainly tested.


That is what I find to be funniest. The most common thing I hear is, "Well I COULD do this". Pomfret is always talking about something Gary Khoury said about "Martial Masturbation" and how people always say they can do something... but they have never done it.

Id like to see some technique out of your dog, if that would be okay?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: real deal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:58 pm 
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mikemurphy wrote:

Joe,

I respect what you train for and the venue you compete in (I assume you are speaking about the NHB competition you do), but you are speaking of an activity that has rules no matter what they call it. Even with your comment about someone trying to take your head off, no one is really trying to kill someone in the ring, are they? You definately look comfortable with what you do, but when the day is done, and the match is over, you are still going to get back in your car, head home, and fall asleep on your nice, soft bed, because in the end you are still competing for something, and you and your competition can call it quits anytime they want. So, it's my belief we are talking about two different things hear (both of which I have no personal experience in mind you).


Mike, excuse me for commenting here, but I've been listening with great interest. Like you, I have been very impressed with Rory, but it is based on his posts on this board over the last 2 years, and not (unfortunately) on face to face experience at camp.

I really enjoy hearing about your admiration of Rory's abilities and experience, but what he can do has nothing to do with what someone else can or cannot do. Everyone stands on their own, regarding their abilities. I know you're just expressing your enthusiasm, but your comments above could seem a bit condescending.

I have also been watching with great admiration the work of Joe P. and Joe L., and in particular, I think the tape they made "RSD Two Person Kata" (aka "Groundfighting for the Stand Up Martial Artist") is the best I've seen. I was able to immediately view it and take these "kata" into class and teach it to my kids. (Among other things they immediately loved the kimura!)

Obviously they can handle various different types of street confrontations too, indeed Joe P.'s school is RSD, "Reality Self-Defense." They don't know me and don't need my recommendation, but I would gladly have either one of them watching my back anytime.

Excuse me for saying this, but your conclusion:

"So, it's my belief we are talking about two different things hear (both of which I have no personal experience in mind you)."

referring back to your original:

"What it comes down to is that we really don't have anything unless we use it for real. The sports judo, NHB, Sports Jujitsu, etc. are just activities to bide time. And this is NO knock on anyone, but let's be honest with ourselves, how many of us really use what we do? "

seems to assume and conclude too much about the admittedly unknown abilities of others ("both of which I have no personal experience").

A more accurate and friendly way to say this is something like:

"What it comes down to is that I feel that I really don't have anything unless I use it for real. For me the sports judo, NHB, Sports Jujitsu, etc. are just activities to bide my time. If I'm being honest with myself, I really don't use what I do. "

I find that if I just relativize things to me personally, then I don't have to worry about offending anyone and they still get the point.

John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:34 pm 
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I think that John sees where I am coming from. Just because you may find little use in what you do, dont assume others surround themselves with the same impractical activites.

I wish others were REALLY as confident in the practicality (and level of effectivness) of what THEY do as our guys at RSD. Joe P is not a prison guard, he teaches elementary school, (a job that doesnt exactly deal with volence) but I wouldnt call his NHB fights and hours of training he puts in everyday as just a hobby or something to do... he has legitimate skills he has attained from "biding his time".

I mentioned this thread to Joe and he seemed pretty confident in the training he does, and level of effectiveness we train at. Its unfortuante we dont have more company in that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:15 am 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:20 am 
Its not what you train but how you train .

If you dont think you can use your skills in a real situation , you cant .

If you think you can only obtain ability through real confrontation ...... well what are you wasting your time for .

Mushin maybe , spiritual development maybe , 1940`s japanese Tai-bo anyone ?

heh as for the dog and technique ...

It`s not the size of the dog in the fight , it`s the size of the technique in the dog :lol:


dont equate lack of fight with lack of experience , sure it`s got to be a bonus ....

By the way you dont got to teach dogs how to fight .. it`s in em

the question is it in you ?

dyed in the wool ? , what kind of dog is that ... a poodle Van ?


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 Post subject: real deal
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:02 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
John,

Just to clear up some points.

<Mike, excuse me for commenting here, but I've been listening with great interest. Like you, I have been very impressed with Rory, but it is based on his posts on this board over the last 2 years, and not (unfortunately) on face to face experience at camp.>

If you get the chance I would highly suggest it!

<I really enjoy hearing about your admiration of Rory's abilities and experience, but what he can do has nothing to do with what someone else can or cannot do. Everyone stands on their own, regarding their abilities. I know you're just expressing your enthusiasm, but your comments above could seem a bit condescending.>

First of all, one of the biggest drawbacks to writing in a forum is the misconception of people who are reading them. I am a very cut and dry type of guy. I say it like I see it, and I'm telling you and Joe out there that what I wrote had NO ounce of condescention in it. I respect Joe Pomfret and his students very much. I've seen Joe P. in action and his grappling is more superior to anyone I've ever seen. With that said, my comments about Rory were very simple. Rory lives in a world which most of us where he uses his training everyday. I have no problem saying that since the rest of us do not live in that world, then we don't use our training in that way. I never stated anything about what a person can or cannot do, only what a person does or does not do. If you sit in your dojo and pratice kata everyday, then great, but you have no idea what it means to use your skills in a "real" situation; whereas Rory does. Training for competition in NHB venue (like the Joes), or Judo competition (like several of my students), or regular open competition in karate matches are simply not the same as those people like Rory and his job.

<I have also been watching with great admiration the work of Joe P. and Joe L., and in particular, I think the tape they made "RSD Two Person Kata" (aka "Groundfighting for the Stand Up Martial Artist") is the best I've seen. I was able to immediately view it and take these "kata" into class and teach it to my kids. (Among other things they immediately loved the kimura!)>

I have also seen and done Joe's two person set. It's a great learning tool and Joe should be proud of what he has created, but it is a tool and nothing more. You can train that or anything else until you turn blue, but what does it get you in real "combat." The answer here is I don't know until you are put in that situation.

>Obviously they can handle various different types of street confrontations too, indeed Joe P.'s school is RSD, "Reality Self-Defense." They don't know me and don't need my recommendation, but I would gladly have either one of them watching my back anytime. >

Once again, no disrespect intended to Joe(s) or RSD, but how do you know they can handle street confrontations? I mean, I could guess that they could too from working with Joe P at the summer camps and his dojo, but until they do, then we don't know, and I wouldn't assume anything.


<"What it comes down to is that we really don't have anything unless we use it for real. The sports judo, NHB, Sports Jujitsu, etc. are just activities to bide time. And this is NO knock on anyone, but let's be honest with ourselves, how many of us really use what we do? "

seems to assume and conclude too much about the admittedly unknown abilities of others ("both of which I have no personal experience"). >

Well, I honestly don't think I'm assuming too much here. For example, you are committed of serious crime and you have the chance to hire the greatest lawyer out of law school that there ever was (i.e. 4.0 GPA, and a 100 on the BAR Exam), but he has never seen the inside of a courtroom, do you hire him? Personally speaking, I'd go with someone who has a tad more experience. I don't want to rely on the "Unknown abilities of others."


<A more accurate and friendly way to say this is something like:

"What it comes down to is that I feel that I really don't have anything unless I use it for real. For me the sports judo, NHB, Sports Jujitsu, etc. are just activities to bide my time. If I'm being honest with myself, I really don't use what I do. " >

Well, that is nice way of saying what you want, not the point that I was trying to put across though. So I guess I'll stand by my original statement.

<I find that if I just relativize things to me personally, then I don't have to worry about offending anyone and they still get the point. >

Like I said before, forums are a dangerous place. If I didn't have respect for what the Joes do, then I would come right out and say it. The fact is, I do, and nowhere in this thread do I intentially insult anyone or anyone's art, I simple feel I'm stating the obvious. Rory was an eye opener for me because I don't live in that world although I've been training for close to 30 years. I don't know how I would do in that situation unless I was put in that situation, and anyone who definitively states how they would react is someone I don't know if I would take seriously.

So, don't take what is written as insulting or derogatory; otherwise, no one will feel that they can write anything at all. Feel free to write what you feel in my forum and state your opinion. That's what I do, because I know I'm not writing anything bad about anyone. But for your sake I will state this again. I have no disrespect for anyone out there who is training for NHB, BBJ, Jujitsu, Sports Jujitsu, Judo, etc., etc. They are all exceptional in their own way. Nor is this reply meant to be disrespectful to you John. I hope you continue to state your view on things.

Thanks for the comments,


mike


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 Post subject: Re: real deal
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:08 pm 
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mikemurphy wrote:
John ... I hope you continue to state your view on things.

Thanks for the comments,

mike


Mike, thanks for encouraging me to do so. :D

mikemurphy wrote:
First of all, one of the biggest drawbacks to writing in a forum is the misconception of people who are reading them. I am a very cut and dry type of guy. I say it like I see it, and I'm telling you and Joe out there that what I wrote had NO ounce of condescention in it. I respect Joe Pomfret and his students very much. I've seen Joe P. in action and his grappling is more superior to anyone I've ever seen. With that said, my comments about Rory were very simple. Rory lives in a world which most of us where he uses his training everyday. I have no problem saying that since the rest of us do not live in that world, then we don't use our training in that way. I never stated anything about what a person can or cannot do, only what a person does or does not do. If you sit in your dojo and pratice kata everyday, then great, but you have no idea what it means to use your skills in a "real" situation; whereas Rory does. Training for competition in NHB venue (like the Joes), or Judo competition (like several of my students), or regular open competition in karate matches are simply not the same as those people like Rory and his job.


Mike, you say:

"...but you have no idea what it means to use your skills in a 'real' situation"

Aren't you assuming/concluding too much here? Who does the 'you' refer to? Aren't you making claims about the unknown skills, abilities, and experiences of others here?

Why must training for sports competition and real fighting ability/experience be mutually exclusive? Some people have (luckily) come out on top in many street fights before they started training karate--a long time ago when they were young (and stupid). They're smarter now and realize how lucky they were, but though they continue to be well-prepared, they realize that the first best option is to avoid.

Would it be correct to say that such a person has "no idea what it means to use your (their) skills in a 'real' situation"?

Suppose I met and trained with a talented prison guard named Bob, with whom I am very impressed and now consider him to be "the real deal" compared to everyone else in my experience who trains for sports competitions. Does this mean that if Bob squared off with anyone else on the planet, in say a 20 by 20 area, that Bob's skill and experience is enough to ensure his victory, and so I should bet on Bob? Wouldn't I be enthusiastically overgeneralizing? :D

John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:32 pm 
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John and Mike-

[quote]
Why must training for sports competition and real fighting ability/experience be mutually exclusive? [quote]


Mike doesn't say, no one has said, that they are mutually exclusive. That said, they aren't the same thing. To say that there is a one-to-one correlation between competition at any level and ambush survival is just as delusional as believing that kata alone will help you. A good conatct competition fighter will have speed, strength, endurance, pain tolerance, and targetting skills all fantastic things to have on your side, but it's only an edge, a few percentage points.



[quote]Suppose I met and trained with a talented prison guard named Bob, with whom I am very impressed and now consider him to be "the real deal" compared to everyone else in my experience who trains for sports competitions. Does this mean that if Bob squared off with anyone else on the planet, in say a 20 by 20 area, that Bob's skill and experience is enough to ensure his victory, and so I should bet on Bob? Wouldn't I be enthusiastically overgeneralizing? [quote]

Exactly. You'd be entering a cat into a dog show.

DT's is NOT fitness is NOT self defense is NOT competition training is NOT fitness training is NOT assault training.

There is some overlap, but not as much as most people think.

IMO opinion, Mike's first post wasn't about how he saw himself or his art and certainly not about how he saw anyone else's. I think he was simply acknowledging and "Aha moment" about how he had seen world.

Rory


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:26 am 
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There are different levels of real situations as well.
Look at Jack Summers Sensei and his time fighting on Iwo Jima.
F.

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