very interesting!!!

[fivedragons]

Ha, I got my beer. I met the enemy on the stair, told him his shoe lace was untied. Kicked him square in the nuts, and threw the empty after him.

[Bill Glasheen]

N
I can appreciate a well-performed kata, but when I ask an champion to apply the moves in reality so that I can learn, and he starts clutching at straws or making excuses, it irritates me. Rather say,”I have no clue, brother, but it looks pretty sharp huh, and it won me a medal.” At least that’s honest.

Right..

And if some others had written this all the regularly scheduled 'diss cards' would have been tossed on the table... Baaahhhh!

Not at all, Jim.

You took that phrase out of context. Let's look at the ENTIRE quote (thank you, Ray) so we can understand the entire mindset of the person who said this in the first place.

I can appreciate a well-performed kata, but when I ask an champion to apply the moves in reality so that I can learn, and he starts clutching at straws or making excuses, it irritates me. Rather say,”I have no clue, brother, but it looks pretty sharp huh, and it won me a medal.” At least that’s honest.

And if kata application sessions start looking like ju-jitsu classes, which they often do, what does it say about the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate?

OK now...

1) Let's call a spade a spade. The gentleman was intentionally insulting. Why is it necessary to pretend he wasn't, or similarly to be insulting when the insult is called? It is what it is. This is his literary device. His audience laughs. Ha ha ha. Big deal... <Yawn...> Comedy is often at someone else's expense.

But you know how that works? Watch some more Jay Leno. This insult comedy works when EVERYONE is fair game. When Jay is insulting politicians, the Democrats AND the Republicans both get it - usually in the same show. Furthermore, Jay is also the master of self-deprecating humor. If someone is "untouchable", then it doesn't work.

South Park is a show I love. One line used for advertising... "If we haven't insulted you, then you haven't watched us long enough." Everyone gets it... or nobody should.

(Sorry, brother Marcus and Laird... US humor. But then you have your own comedians. We thank you in particular for Canadian imports.)

2) But wait, there's more! We can gloss over all of that, because the gentleman then sticks his martial foot in his own mouth. He has karate people in a box and says they can't do that jiujitsu stuff.

the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate

I don't know this gentlemen, so I can't tell (yet) if he's stupid or playing stupid as a comedic device. But I do get a laugh when I see this.

And if kata application sessions start looking like ju-jitsu classes, which they often do, what does it say about the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate?

Am I supposed to laugh with him or at him? Doesn't matter... I'm laughing! *

Let me translate for those who can't make the connection.

That's not Uechi!!!!

Good thing I've never heard anyone on these Forums think anything dumb like that...

- Bill

* Go back and see my post about tegumi

[Bill Glasheen]

So... Let's come back full circle to Carlos' original intent in the thread.

I (Bill Glasheen) think that part of the transformation (or distortion) of karate as people know it today ("the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate") is partially manifested as a loss of its tegumi foundation.

For some...

I may not be a tegumi expert, but I sure as hell know a Uechi move when I see Rory doing one. (I have pictures... )

And you know what's funny? Rory doesn't practice Uechi Ryu. Go figure... He does that Sosuishitsu jiujitsu stuff.

We do that kata schit where we're only supposed to punch and kick.

Oh wait... Why didn't Kanbun do any seiken fist punches?



Who lost "it"?

Why are some in the peanut gallery getting so worked up when we start practicing "it" again?

- Bill

[jorvik]

don’t quite understand that I’m afraid. Kanbum Uechi goes to China and learns a Chinese martial art then comes back to Okinawa to teach it. Where does “Tegumi” come into it? The Chinese didn’t have Tegumi in their martial arts.
So if somebody can find "Tegumi" in a Chinese art that is just wishfull thinking
Quote

And if kata application sessions start looking like ju-jitsu classes, which they often do, what does it say about the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate?


The reason that guy is funny BTW is because he is talking the truth. What he is really saying is that there are some folks out there who have to import stuff from other martial arts to validate their own,,,,,,rather like the king's clothing, everyone knows it but it just takes someone to say it
in this case in a humerous way

[fivedragons]

Jorvik you're right, the Chinese don't have tegumi in their arts. That's because they speak a different language. If I call a cherry tree a "cherry tree", and someone in japan calls the same thing a "insert japanese word for cherry tree", does that change anything?

Does the ##### tree give a ##### about what I or some Japanese version of me thinks about it, or what words and concepts we try to wrap around it, to freeze it in time and make it part of our personal identity?

Nope, the tree is just there, and we didn't even have to make it up.

The trees are laughing at us, jorvik. Because we can't even see them.

[mhosea]

What he is really saying is that there are some folks out there who have to import stuff from other martial arts to validate their own

Yeah, I guess, but that's oversimplified. What is "their own art", the art that they were taught in Japanese 3K fashion or the art that they would have been taught by the pre-war Okinawan masters? As Bill says, we're full circle here. I think even pre-war there was a lot of pressure to make karate fit in the Japanese arts without appearing to be so eclectic, on the one hand a striking art and on the other jujutsu-lite, the latter aspect not being particularly impressive from a marketing standpoint to the Japanese. If you learn the grappling moves from somewhere, then suddenly what seemed like, for want of a better description, a pretty stupid move when you were told that it was for blocking a punch or something, suddenly makes perfect sense. My favorite example of this is a certain movement in the Matsubayashi Ryu version of Naihanchi Nidan. In Shoshin Nagamine's book it is described as "Sasae-uke (supported forearm block)" or something like that, the idea I guess being that I'm supporting a middle block with the other hand. But the lore of the style is that this move is supposed to be done slowly in Naihanchi Nidan, and what's up with "supported" blocks, anyway? When do you decide that you need to support a block with the other hand? I took Aikido for a month (liked it but too hard on my arthritic joints) and instantly knew what this move was supposed to be when I learned kote gaeshi. Obviously in Aikido they have their own dramatic take on things, and in Naihanchi Nidan it's not really a throw, just trying to avail oneself of the fact that arms don't bend that way and hoping you can follow it up with an elbow. Interestingly enough, in the Motobu Ryu version of Naihanchi Nidan, they explicitly teach a shoulder lock in the same spot. I don't know how one could look at this very old kata and say that these grappling moves weren't really there. The astonishing thing, really, is that some few generations of karate instructors were able to get away with describing them as blocks for strikes.

[Bill Glasheen]

What he is really saying is that there are some folks out there who have to import stuff from other martial arts to validate their own,,,,,,rather like the king's clothing, everyone knows it but it just takes someone to say it
in this case in a humerous way

I knew you thought this way, Ray, which is why I remarked I wasn't surprised you posted his comments.

If this is what the man thinks - and we can't really know for sure - then I'm not laughing with him. I'm laughing at him.

And I couldn't disagree more, Ray. But we've been there, done that.

The student isn't ready; the teacher is nowhere to be found.

- Billism

I don't know how one could look at this very old kata and say that these grappling moves weren't really there. The astonishing thing, really, is that some few generations of karate instructors were able to get away with describing them as blocks for strikes.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you, Mike.

Does the ##### tree give a ##### about what I or some Japanese version of me thinks about it, or what words and concepts we try to wrap around it, to freeze it in time and make it part of our personal identity?

Nope, the tree is just there, and we didn't even have to make it up.

The trees are laughing at us, jorvik. Because we can't even see them.

Again... thank you.

- Bill

[jorvik]

You still haven't validated anything Bill
Uechi came from China and tegumai comes from Okinawa. Uechi-ryu may be Okinawan now but it's roots are in China.
Chinese create forms for a purpose, and the movements in a form are not open to a thousand different interpretations. The movements have one definite application and then a number of possibilities.
A punch in a kata doesn't suddenly become a kick because you want it to be one.or if it does than you have created a new kata.
If Uechi has put his name to the style then you should at least have the good manners to practise it the way he formulated it.....or if you don't have that knowledge or you want to make it radically different from his art then call it "Glasheen ryu" or something else.

Katas were not invented by God or by super intellectual people who knew absolutely everything about fighting and came up with movements that had a thousand different interpretations...........if you want to look for new moves in a kata in that manner then you may as well look at ballet for fighting moves.
Real fighters only need a couple of moves anyway, boxing has only a couple of basic punches............by overly intellectualising a system and seaching for hidden meaning you ultimately Dumb it down and it appears to folks outside the style that you are frantically searching for material because you have none.

[Bill Glasheen]

You still haven't validated anything Bill

To your satisfaction? That will never happen, Ray, because it conflicts with your paradigm. Without a paradigm shift on your part, there will be no information exchange.

Empty the cup some time...

Uechi came from China and tegumai comes from Okinawa.

No... Uechi came from Okinawa.

He studied Okinawa martial arts as a child. He traveled to the Fuzhou region of China around the age of 17 to avoid conscription and to study Chinese martial arts.

We know he studied under at least two instructors while there. We know that at one point in time, he began teaching there. Then stuff happened, and he needed to come back.

We don't know exactly what Kanbun studied. Multiple trips back to the same region of China have revealed places where he trained, but we cannot find anyone doing "Uech Ryu." We cannot find anyone doing "The Big Three."

Uechi-ryu may be Okinawan now but it's roots are in China.

The only thing we know for sure are that some semblance of what we now know as The Big Three were taught by Kanbun, and Kanbun learned stuff in both Okinawa and China.

We can also find other Naha styles where a Sanchin and a Seisan look suspiciously similar, and annoyingly different.

Chinese create forms for a purpose, and the movements in a form are not open to a thousand different interpretations. The movements have one definite application and then a number of possibilities.

Wow, Ray. Let's just paint the land of a billion people with a broad brush, and throw them all in one single bucket because it suits you. How convenient.

Sorry... I'm not sipping from the cup of Ray.

A punch in a kata doesn't suddenly become a kick because you want it to be one.

There are no (none, zero, zilch, nada) punches in Kanbun's style. Furthermore, Kanbun's style fights with open hands. What's up with that?

or if it does than you have created a new kata.
If Uechi has put his name to the style then you should at least have the good manners to practise it the way he formulated it.

Oh but I do, Ray. I practice a style of principles, and not specifics. That is what the Uechi family gave me.

Sorry you missed out...

if you don't have that knowledge or you want to make it radically different from his art then call it "Glasheen ryu" or something else.

I don't have YOUR ryu, Ray. But I do have my own.

And yes, I have done my own choreography. And I don't use Japanese names. I don't suffer from culture worship.

Katas were not invented by God or by super intellectual people who knew absolutely everything about fighting and came up with movements that had a thousand different interpretations...........if you want to look for new moves in a kata in that manner then you may as well look at ballet for fighting moves.

Funny you should say that, Ray. When I first started studying with David Finkelstein in New York City, Michael Baryshnikov used to perform there. Dave would bring people over from the ballet to teach us... how to move. Dave was a BIG Baryshnikov fan.

You wanna call Dave an idiot? He's a Harvard law grad, by the way. And speaks fluent Mandarin. And has visited China. And has multiple 1-on-1 workouts in Okinawa with Tomoyose Ryuko and Shinjo Seiyu (Papa Shinjo).

You wanna call Michael Baryshnikov an idiot? Oh and by the way, how are your Uechi Ryu sokusens?

Real fighters only need a couple of moves anyway, boxing has only a couple of basic punches.

When do we get the Mike Tyson lecture, Ray?

First... Boxing is a sport where you hit people with wrist-wrapped, fluffy pillows.

Second... Kanbun's style was not a sport.

Third... there are no punches in Kanbun's style.

...........by overly intellectualising a system and seaching for hidden meaning you ultimately Dumb it down and it appears to folks outside the style that you are frantically searching for material because you have none.

A style should be simple, but no simpler than it needs to be. One way to make a style simple is to throw away hundreds of specifics, and reduce it down to a handful of operating principles from which your body instinctively will know how to move.

Later, Ray. Gotta go teach a class this Glasheen Ryu stuff...

- Bill

[MikeK]

The only thing we know for sure are that some semblance of what we now know as The Big Three were taught by Kanbun, and Kanbun learned stuff in both Okinawa and China.

We can also find other Naha styles where a Sanchin and a Seisan look suspiciously similar, and annoyingly different.

I share this view with you Bill. Just an idea but IMO Kanbun did the smart thing by putting what he learned in China into Okinawan clothes, much as the Okinawan's did later when bringing their art to Japan.

I (Bill Glasheen) think that part of the transformation (or distortion) of karate as people know it today ("the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate") is partially manifested as a loss of its tegumi foundation.

I agree but according to Oshima one reason it got lost in Japan was that many early karateka there already had grappling art exposure with Jui Jutsu and especially Judo so dropped the practice of the throws and locks in karate. That was just fine as long as everyone had that same grappling background but if they didn't then they'd end up with a purely striking art.

Amen. As I said in another post, I can imagine the consternation I would cause if I stuck my hand in the air halfway through a traditional karate class and said, “Please, I think we’ve had enough bassai-dai, can we move onto something else, sensei?”

I can appreciate a well-performed kata, but when I ask an champion to apply the moves in reality so that I can learn, and he starts clutching at straws or making excuses, it irritates me. Rather say,”I have no clue, brother, but it looks pretty sharp huh, and it won me a medal.” At least that’s honest.

And if kata application sessions start looking like ju-jitsu classes, which they often do, what does it say about the stand-up activity we label and recognise as karate?

I find nothing incorrect or unintentionally funny with what Mr. Botha wrote, especially since I think he's talking about Shotokan in particular.

[Bill Glasheen]

Amen. As I said in another post, I can imagine the consternation I would cause if I stuck my hand in the air halfway through a traditional karate class and said, “Please, I think we’ve had enough bassai-dai, can we move onto something else, sensei?”

***

I find nothing incorrect or unintentionally funny with what Mr. Botha wrote, especially since I think he's talking about Shotokan in particular.

What a shame for him to miss out on good applications of Bassai.

One of the more fascinating comparative martial arts exercises I ever did, Mike, was to teach Farino Furman, a former shotokan practitioner, both Uechi Seisan and Hamahiga no tonfa at the same time. Talk about opening our eyes... We had the most amazing "compare and contrast" sessions between Bassai and Seisan, using this classic tonfa form as a middle ground.

It almost reminded me of having used unix and VMS operating systems, and then stumbling on MS DOS. After seen those two predecessors, you just know that Bill Gates had very little original going on in what became an industry standard.

Same for Windows. It was originally an invention at... Xerox. (No, not Apple.).

You don't have to go far before you see people repeating themselves. But then when you see the many spins on the same concepts, it really does hammer them home.

Pretty soon, you don't know what came first, or which came from what. You just know it's stuff that works.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Ok , I was not going to respond to this thread , it`s amusing it`s resorted to peanut gallery discussion (current phantom insult , strawman tactic , topic sidetracker of choice)

Bills now talking Tegumi , awesome !! finally !!

now for the past umpteen years on here Ive been asking you and others Bill to share your tegumi drills/skill developemnt , as I think it`s integral to practical karate .

I practice such drills , I study them , and to me they are a cornerstone of practical application .

How do we take Uechi into this range ? , that phone booth range , And yes Art`s forum (the quiet one ) is a breath of fresh air .

we are not allowed to question the current regime/drills , Rory in his book puts it best , Basically

Drills are made safe so we dont kill folks

the problem is when drills beocme about the safety valve and not the skillset

the safety valve in most modern karate is

A) distance

B) timing

every time we have a discussion about what the kumites teach , we receive the same answers

co-ordination
distance
and timing

It`s safe to say George had a rant , good on George , he`s pissed at me and my friends becase we push the envelope , but I challenge George to quote any insult ?

fact is it doesnt exist , the real enemy here is questioning , be honest if you dont want the questions say so . Quotes of what folks have said are simple fact . Questions of said statements , a simple search for answers .

the polite experts are fine because they dont refer to Uechi , that`s because they dont give a fuk about Uechi , as a Uechi guy , I will refer to Uechi , because it`s great , it`s not a dis , but support of an incredible practical functional style .

when Jim says he wants to see more short range and Bridiging work , he gets well thats Wing Chun and not Uechi , fact is I agree , me and Jim have run at each other hard in the past , fact is it`s a valid question .

where are your Uechi based drills for bridging dominacne

where are your Uechi based drills for clinching dominance

where are your Uechi based drills for thowing and takedown dominance

where are your uechi based drills for stand up grappling

show me a drill that is not primarily based on distance and timing .

Hell show me a drill were you close ......

come to camp will not cut it , this stuff is elementry to good overall skill development , show me the work , the skills , the understanding .

if you cant even scratch the surface , dont expect me to not question wether or not Uechi has been diluted .

I can do all of that and directly from kata .

and I`m not very good , Please will some high rank experienced skilled person please put up ? .......

remember , not reliant on distance and timing , but the messy crap that happens in real fights , Read Rorys book .... It`s like having the lessons of Vans forum in easy portable form .

call it tegumi , call it pushands , call it chi-sau , its all the same , tactile engagement work

heck call it wrestling or BJJ , show us your Uechi skills , not generic punch block , distance tag adaptation ( a different and sometimes very usefull skill)

I`m happy I`ve met folks who can , If you think me an ##### your call . Honest open and sharing .

you show me yours I`ll show you mine .

you can relax now , or flame , or whatever , I just felt I`d set my position and the record straight .

when did disention become disloyalty

[Bill Glasheen]

Marcus

A post like this last one is both sincere and compelling to those of us with teaching as a passion. In short, I hear you.

It`s safe to say George had a rant , good on George , he`s pissed at me and my friends becase we push the envelope , but I challenge George to quote any insult ?

I'm not a psychologist, and I don't play one on TV. And I don't get paid enough here to parse people's words, unless I am inspired to make an informative point. Usually word parsing just pisses off the chronically irritable, and further fans the flames. Is that what YOU want, Marcus? (I personally don't think so.)

I push the envelope too, Marcus. It is my job as a researcher to push the envelope. But in order to maintain employment, I do so with the goal of creating something. If I'm not affecting the bottom line at work in a positive way, I am given the golden parachute. I constantly remind myself that I am part of a team of people working for a common goal.

Why don't we make a pact to do just that? It's too easy to criticize.

If you think me an ##### your call . Honest open and sharing .

Under the occasionally rough exterior is a man with a good heart and an eager mind. I've always seen that in you, Marcus.

So let's go somewhere with this conversation, since that was your intent.

A little groundwork...

Bills now talking Tegumi , awesome !! finally !!

Where have you been, Marcus? Every time I share my thoughts in this regard, Ray tells me that I'm not practicing Uechi Ryu. This thread is one of many examples of the crap people put up with in our community when they go outside the bounds of "required exercises."

Have you seen the schit that erupts when I start talking about my work with Simon Lailey's Fuzhou Suparinpei? Holy crap! We sure do have a lot of China experts out there... (NOT!!!) More likely a lot of insecure people. Whether or not it is what Simon thinks it is, my work with this piece of Fuzhou choreography sure has revealed a lot about our style to me.

Various experts out there seem to have done the Vulcan mind meld with Kanbun, and just know what he meant this style to be.

Please will some high rank experienced skilled person please put up ?

First... I've been in the "creative people" business long enough to know that the pedigree of the idea is irrelevant. A good idea is a good idea.

F*** rank. Let's get it on!

Now for a start... When someone is "putting up", would it not be helpful if we can tell the peanut gallery to shut up?



In creative sessions I've been involved with (professionally), there's an open idea format where every idea is put on the table, and there are no bad ideas. Over time, the good ones tend to rise on their own, often taking shape amidst other ideas that help round them out.

Now, for putting up...

FYI, I submitted original choreography for my renshi title. It wasn't asked of me. I just did it because I personally objected to the practice of people assuming that the master title(s) and the gold stripe(s) came automatically with 6th dan and above. My goal was (and still is) to make sure people wearing the stripes of contribution actually have done something to deserve them.

We're still working on that...

where are your Uechi based drills for bridging dominacne

where are your Uechi based drills for clinching dominance

where are your Uechi based drills for thowing and takedown dominance

where are your uechi based drills for stand up grappling

show me a drill that is not primarily based on distance and timing .

Hell show me a drill were you close ......

You sure ask a lot, Marcus!

I think each of us who contribute have shared what is near and dear to our own hearts. As long as you understand that the rest of the Uechi world isn't working on your personal list of hot topics, then I think we can proceed constructively.

Here's what I've done to date, Marcus.

• In the 1970s, our Uechi people were facing a lot of TKD folks in tournaments, and literally getting their a$$es kicked. I choreographed a kicking form and made it a class requirement so that I'd have at least a couple of headhunting, bada$$ed kickers in my dojo to put the fear of Allah in their Uechi defenses. To this day, this is one of my most popular creations - particularly with the young.
• I choreographed a series of 12 "circular" training drills for the 13 hojoundo of Uechi Ryu. I intentionally tried to stay away from what I learned in Kyu and Dan kumite, and freely admit I "stole" ideas from Wing Chun in my choreography. This won't meet the peanut gallery's request for "THE" inside exercise. But hell, I did SOMETHING! I've made these class requirements, and have found my students using interpretations of kata that nobody else seems to see in the greater Uechi community. Thus I've shown that drills like these can help people internalize patterns of movement, and allow them to use them in a jiyu format.
• I trained in and have a teaching certificate in the Tomiki method of aikido. I learned this from someone who practices Goju (our sister style) and has put his fighting principles to use as a Special Forces combat instructor. We now have ukemi as a class requirement in my dojo. Furthermore, my student (Rich) has used some of these skills to help train The Marines in Quantico. That's a start.
• I come to camp and learn. Yes, Marcus, that does help. And don't tell me not to tell you this. Camp is where we all met Rory - a kick-ass LEO instructor and Sosuishitsu Ryu practitioner. (And an all-around good guy.) I've shown pictures of Rory in classes where he's teaching bridging moves that come right out of our kata. (In particular, Seisan and Sanseiryu)

But wait, there's more!

I would like to introduce Sal Jaber. Sal was a rokudan in traditional Japanese Jiujitsu before meeting up with my student Bruce Hirabayashi in Atlanta. Some years later, we now have Sal running the Uechi Atlanta school, where he teaches Uechi Ryu with his own perspective on how the style should be interpreted.

When you meet up with Sal online, I ask that you give him the respect that he deserves. To start with, you probably would if you met him in person.

Now to the "put up" part... As I have asked of all my students and their own students, I expect people to show me they understand the "some assembly required" mantra. Sal has done just that. Please go to this thread, which is currently on Dana's forum.

Goshin waza

I see that you already have, Marcus. You're a very on-the-ball kinda guy!

So... let's keep on keeping on, no?

- Bill

[MikeK]

What a shame for him to miss out on good applications of Bassai.

I don't think by saying “Please, I think we’ve had enough bassai-dai, can we move onto something else, sensei?” means he's missing out on anything, I pretty much did the very same thing myself. But funny that you mentioned Bassai as I'm relearning it purely as a form of excercise and movement.

You don't have to go far before you see people repeating themselves. But then when you see the many spins on the same concepts, it really does hammer them home.

Pretty soon, you don't know what came first, or which came from what. You just know it's stuff that works.

Nothing new under the sun.

Hell show me a drill were you close ......

If done with proper intent then the "attacker" in any drill done by intermediate level folks should be practicing his closing skills.

I took Aikido for a month (liked it but too hard on my arthritic joints) and instantly knew what this move was supposed to be when I learned kote gaeshi.

Hey Mike, Here's a little spin on a kote gaeshi. If you squint and you might see a bit of a reinforced block.


I'm behind the camera

[Bill Glasheen]

Marcus

I forgot to mention for you to look at anything done by Joe Pomfret. Joey is our own Uechi/BJJ bada$$ with the experience in the MMA ring to back up his teaching ideas. We see him at camp every year. What a wonderful guy, teacher, and martial artist.

Joey also had some military experience before becoming a full-time MA teacher.

George has been working with Joe to have him distill his ideas down into some training DVDs. I have one of them and I believe there's another. I have used some of his ideas to help me understand some very puzzling sequences in Sanseiryu. I was teaching one of them to Miss Vicki just last night in class.

I'll see if I can find out what specific DVDs you want, and get back with you.

Mike Murphy is another guy you want to meet up with. Mike teaches both Uechi and Traditional Japanese Jiujutsu in his dojo, and teaches Uechi Ryu with a padded floor. Mike has choreographed a Kyu Kumite that takes the exercise to the next level. You would like it, Marcus. If I run into Mike at camp, I'll see what I can do about him getting some of this on film for you to peruse.

- Bill