Going backwards will work only some of the time, but it is certainly one of the options we should learn to “do right”
But most of the great fighters I have met, believe that under “rapid fire” attack such as the insane “flailing” of the street, one would be quickly overwhelmed by momentum.
Jim Maloney sensei was showing this very principle at the “Foxhole” this past weekend.
Also, in a real fight there might not be time or space to move back, such as in a crowded pub or any “space challenged” environment.
Walter Mattson, one of the best fighters of the sixties [one of the top ten in the country]
Has a very unique way to show you how to stand your ground and make your technique work. He puts your back to the wall, and fires random, full power kicks and punches at you teaching you to “move in” … “attack the attack” …. The best “kumite” I have ever seen, because it hones your ability to “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.
Art Rabesa sensei, has used the same concept, when fighting the top “animals” of the sixties and seventies, and in a few real fights… “You move, I move” and take “bombs” to the hapless attacker’s “kill spots”..
He proved it once when under attack by four punks who after invading his parked car, got out to give him a “beating” and found themselves against a “steam roller” unwilling to back up.
He attacked a punch with a back kick that lifted the punk clear off the ground, crushing his breastbone. Two more sustained fractured cheekbones as they swung. No blocks, no backing up, just total “destruction”
The surgeon at the hospital called him in the middle of the night wanting to know what weapon he had used to do those idiots in.
People like Rabesa take the “martial” concept to a different level, and show you why, without explosive power, you have nothing but a dance.
Modifying Kumite
Moderator: Available
"He attacked a punch with a back kick that lifted the punk clear off the ground, crushing his breastbone. Two more sustained fractured cheekbones as they swung. No blocks, no backing up, just total “destruction”.
The surgeon at the hospital called him in the middle of the night wanting to know what weapon he had used to do those idiots in. "
Don't we all wish that were us in a moment of attack; and how easy to pin someone else's medals on our own chest, because we practice the same-name style.
What a mistake THAT kind of thinking is!
NM
The surgeon at the hospital called him in the middle of the night wanting to know what weapon he had used to do those idiots in. "
Don't we all wish that were us in a moment of attack; and how easy to pin someone else's medals on our own chest, because we practice the same-name style.
What a mistake THAT kind of thinking is!
NM
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Rick Wilson
“Walter Mattson, one of the best fighters of the sixties [one of the top ten in the country]
Has a very unique way to show you how to stand your ground and make your technique work. He puts your back to the wall, and fires random, full power kicks and punches at you teaching you to “move in” … “attack the attack” …. The best “kumite” I have ever seen, because it hones your ability to “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.”
Very similar to things we do.
The most exciting is when your back is to the wall and the guy is REAL close and has a (training) knife. You learn in a big hurry that staying back huddled against the wall gets you killed fast. You must fire off it and “move in” … “attack the attack” …. “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.”
Has a very unique way to show you how to stand your ground and make your technique work. He puts your back to the wall, and fires random, full power kicks and punches at you teaching you to “move in” … “attack the attack” …. The best “kumite” I have ever seen, because it hones your ability to “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.”
Very similar to things we do.
The most exciting is when your back is to the wall and the guy is REAL close and has a (training) knife. You learn in a big hurry that staying back huddled against the wall gets you killed fast. You must fire off it and “move in” … “attack the attack” …. “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.”
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
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Robb did a good job of restating my basic quetsion -- not in how to block kicks but why train a kumite where I'm standing in an upright stance and trying to smash my forearm against a front kick.
And Allen - my comment was focused only on the idea that you're closer to 6' tall than 5' tall. And the world is a much better place for the writing of your book! I'd hope that some of what I'm talking about would apply to men who are closer to 5' tall than 6' tall as well.
Van has also importantly pointed out that a good roundhouse kick or front kick from a man could simply bowl a woman oven if she gets trapped on the line of force.
Now when...oh shoot...what's his name?...John Spencer?
Yes-when John taught at a regional workout he made a big deal out of saying that the arm movement was never done without moving the body off the line and that the arm was bent in sanchin position, just swept outward.
Sweeping - yes - very important.
And look at the Sanseiryu kata and you'll see the only time this downward sweep happens if AFTER you've done something else to set it up.
So lots of difference sources and voices point to the idea that:
The sweeping movement is done with a bent arm from a low stance after it is set up by a striking technique that takes you off the line of force.
To me - this doesn't sound like a technqiue meant to smash against a leg at all - it sounds like a technique meant to off balance and tumble an opponent to the ground. (2Green - it isn't another thread - it's this one too)
Dan Kumite was developed to help with competition sparring, not personal defense. Yakosuko kumite was developed, in-part, because of politics and for sparring. Again - not for personal defense.
So even if I split my training - 1/2 for competiiton sparring and 1/2 for personal defense - I have no "Uechi" drill to train my personal defense skills. I have three (Kyu, Dan, Yakosuko) kumite to train sparring. I think Rick is making good strides in his work with two-person sets and NLD drills (by description only BTW, I haven't been able to find the videos in the store to buy them - can somebody post a link?)
But how is my body going to know the difference in a dangerous situation? How do I know if the sparring training or the personal defense training is going to come out?
And Allen - my comment was focused only on the idea that you're closer to 6' tall than 5' tall. And the world is a much better place for the writing of your book! I'd hope that some of what I'm talking about would apply to men who are closer to 5' tall than 6' tall as well.
Van has also importantly pointed out that a good roundhouse kick or front kick from a man could simply bowl a woman oven if she gets trapped on the line of force.
Now when...oh shoot...what's his name?...John Spencer?
Yes-when John taught at a regional workout he made a big deal out of saying that the arm movement was never done without moving the body off the line and that the arm was bent in sanchin position, just swept outward.
Sweeping - yes - very important.
And look at the Sanseiryu kata and you'll see the only time this downward sweep happens if AFTER you've done something else to set it up.
So lots of difference sources and voices point to the idea that:
The sweeping movement is done with a bent arm from a low stance after it is set up by a striking technique that takes you off the line of force.
To me - this doesn't sound like a technqiue meant to smash against a leg at all - it sounds like a technique meant to off balance and tumble an opponent to the ground. (2Green - it isn't another thread - it's this one too)
Dan Kumite was developed to help with competition sparring, not personal defense. Yakosuko kumite was developed, in-part, because of politics and for sparring. Again - not for personal defense.
So even if I split my training - 1/2 for competiiton sparring and 1/2 for personal defense - I have no "Uechi" drill to train my personal defense skills. I have three (Kyu, Dan, Yakosuko) kumite to train sparring. I think Rick is making good strides in his work with two-person sets and NLD drills (by description only BTW, I haven't been able to find the videos in the store to buy them - can somebody post a link?)
But how is my body going to know the difference in a dangerous situation? How do I know if the sparring training or the personal defense training is going to come out?
Dan Kumite was developed to help with competition sparring, not personal defense. Yakosuko kumite was developed, in-part, because of politics and for sparring. Again - not for personal defense.
Look out, Dana. some people are already whining "blasphemy"
It blows a hole in the sensei who argues that prearranged kumites equal self-defense realities and program you for handling yourself in a street fight.
So again the question is, if so, why did Kanbun not teach any of it?
Why were his students and he, able to handle themselves against the Wabodan with only the three main kata, conditioning and reactive work? [Jiyu Kobo]
He must have missed the boat to China I guess.
Van
The last person I did that technique against, in terms of attempting to put his head in a headlock I remember quite well. The [my] technique failed three times before he got the message to change his technique before I finnally gwould get him. The reason why it failed was because we were all sweated up from a heavy workout and good sparring, his hair was soaking wet PLUS, he was wearing some sort of hair gel that every single time I was about to get him in a good ole-fashioned headlock a-la-Seichin. His greasy head slipped right through my forearm and bicep as they clinched down on that sweatty mess -- and I had my gi sleeves rolled up.and I`m one of these lucky long limbed folks
What a defensive technique: A tube of hair gel in the glove compartment; not for the ladies but for the defense.
Do you ever get into a low front stance placing your forward leg between the other’s legs for a takedown?I use it as a takedown
Hello Rob.
Well, Rob, it’s all in the application of the application. There are times I’d never do it, but depending on the kick itself, even a hard kick the block works smooth as silk.why would I want to train myself to match my forearm against another's shin? And if I don't, how can I perform the prearranged sets?
I for one do not believe all the arm conditioning in the world can prevent a forearm from snapping if the conditions for it are right.
If she does not believe the block will work for her, Rob, then it probably won’t due to the mindset.
I could answer that one in a positive vein too, only because I’ve managed to figure out why I’ve learned all the Calculus in college because I don’t use it. The answer was that I do, only it is subtle. With that, I can say that she doesn't want to MATCH her forearm against a shin because a shin will win.Sort of the question many of us face with why we spent all that time in high school learning algebra.
Those two go hand-in-hand. To me, anyway, all the kumites were designed with competition in mind -- at least they have the look and feel as if they were. And if so, and if what Kanbun was doing was not for competition, then there’s your answer, Van.Look out, Dana. some people are already whining "blasphemy"
So again the question is, if so, why did Kanbun not teach any of it?
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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Stryke
Quote
The last person I did that technique against, in terms of attempting to put his head in a headlock I remember quite well. The [my] technique failed three times before he got the message to change his technique before I finnally gwould get him. The reason why it failed was because we were all sweated up from a heavy workout and good sparring, his hair was soaking wet PLUS, he was wearing some sort of hair gel that every single time I was about to get him in a good ole-fashioned headlock a-la-Seichin. His greasy head slipped right through my forearm and bicep as they clinched down on that sweatty mess -- and I had my gi sleeves rolled up.
** usually grab the back of the neck and dig my fingers in to the nice spots there , you can even do this with heavy gloves on
Quote
Do you ever get into a low front stance placing your forward leg between the other’s legs for a takedown?
Ive done this but isnt somethin I really naturally prefer , i much prefer the outside for takedowns , On the inside I prefer throws , Ill slide right up like this to do a hip throw , on the inside I prefer more of a Sanchin type stance to protect my groin . For the takedowns I usually am On the outside controlling the lead leg with my knee , like the one with the downblock
The last person I did that technique against, in terms of attempting to put his head in a headlock I remember quite well. The [my] technique failed three times before he got the message to change his technique before I finnally gwould get him. The reason why it failed was because we were all sweated up from a heavy workout and good sparring, his hair was soaking wet PLUS, he was wearing some sort of hair gel that every single time I was about to get him in a good ole-fashioned headlock a-la-Seichin. His greasy head slipped right through my forearm and bicep as they clinched down on that sweatty mess -- and I had my gi sleeves rolled up.
** usually grab the back of the neck and dig my fingers in to the nice spots there , you can even do this with heavy gloves on
Quote
Do you ever get into a low front stance placing your forward leg between the other’s legs for a takedown?
Ive done this but isnt somethin I really naturally prefer , i much prefer the outside for takedowns , On the inside I prefer throws , Ill slide right up like this to do a hip throw , on the inside I prefer more of a Sanchin type stance to protect my groin . For the takedowns I usually am On the outside controlling the lead leg with my knee , like the one with the downblock
I think now you have answered your own questions to facilitate your understanding of what I have been writing for years about kumites.To me, anyway, all the kumites were designed with competition in mind -- at least they have the look and feel as if they were. And if so, and if what Kanbun was doing was not for competition, then there’s your answer, Van.
They are very useful for free sparring, because that is the reason why they were developed.
So let's get this "but they represent street reality" crap out of the discussions, express or implied.
Also let's understand the kumite concepts critique of many
very advanced and respectd seniors.
In the past, you and many others would exclaim "what! not another kumite thread!"
I hope this settles the matter once and for all, Allen.
Van
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Joe Graziano
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Milford, MA, US
Van:
Walter Mattson, one of the best fighters of the sixties [one of the top ten in the country]
Has a very unique way to show you how to stand your ground and make your technique work. He puts your back to the wall, and fires random, full power kicks and punches at you teaching you to “move in” … “attack the attack” …. The best “kumite” I have ever seen, because it hones your ability to “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.
Yes, but (with due respect and sincere appreciation Van to your kind comments about your good friend and my teacher) this is only the "hard" half of the story. There is an equally effective "soft" side.
Walter, like many good teachers, has a place to practice the "hard" extreme and a place to practice the soft. It is up to the student to develop his/her skills with these two extremes (exaggerations if you will). before he/she can blend the concepts into something workable against a particular opponent.
It makes complete sense to master the two extremes first. Then one can do anything in between as circumstances warrant. Sometimes this may mean switching gears on a dime.
Walter Mattson, one of the best fighters of the sixties [one of the top ten in the country]
Has a very unique way to show you how to stand your ground and make your technique work. He puts your back to the wall, and fires random, full power kicks and punches at you teaching you to “move in” … “attack the attack” …. The best “kumite” I have ever seen, because it hones your ability to “smother” the opponent, physically and mentally.
Yes, but (with due respect and sincere appreciation Van to your kind comments about your good friend and my teacher) this is only the "hard" half of the story. There is an equally effective "soft" side.
Walter, like many good teachers, has a place to practice the "hard" extreme and a place to practice the soft. It is up to the student to develop his/her skills with these two extremes (exaggerations if you will). before he/she can blend the concepts into something workable against a particular opponent.
It makes complete sense to master the two extremes first. Then one can do anything in between as circumstances warrant. Sometimes this may mean switching gears on a dime.
Joe,
Correct. We must do it all. Thus the reason why I encourage the practice of kumites, but to take them that one "step beyond" and also to understand the benefits and limitations of them, as in everything else we do on the floor.
There are certain confrontation dynamics, that we,as teachers, must bring to the attention of our students.
Even sport karate, especially as we did it in the sixties, can get someone killed.
Recall the "craning in" techniques we had to use against sledge hammer kicks that could crush your chest.
We found out, as Rabesa pointed out in his books, that prearranged kumites, as good as they are, did not work well or provide safety against killer kicks.
We simply had to come up with a better way to deal with them, and we found it right out of seisan kata.
Craning in, pre-empting the momentum of the oncoming kick, especially against the sledge hammer kicks of Bobby Cheezic's TSD team out of connecticut, was a life saving device. Walter will remember.
Correct. We must do it all. Thus the reason why I encourage the practice of kumites, but to take them that one "step beyond" and also to understand the benefits and limitations of them, as in everything else we do on the floor.
There are certain confrontation dynamics, that we,as teachers, must bring to the attention of our students.
Even sport karate, especially as we did it in the sixties, can get someone killed.
Recall the "craning in" techniques we had to use against sledge hammer kicks that could crush your chest.
We found out, as Rabesa pointed out in his books, that prearranged kumites, as good as they are, did not work well or provide safety against killer kicks.
We simply had to come up with a better way to deal with them, and we found it right out of seisan kata.
Craning in, pre-empting the momentum of the oncoming kick, especially against the sledge hammer kicks of Bobby Cheezic's TSD team out of connecticut, was a life saving device. Walter will remember.
Last edited by Van Canna on Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Van
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Joe Graziano
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- Location: Milford, MA, US
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Rick Wilson
Hi Dana:
George just received the NLD part of the tape so it will take a little time before they fancy it up with nice headings and titles and such.
As for using your forearm to block a kick I would recommend a different approach (it is on the Kumite part of the tape).
Hold you arm the same as you would in Kumite. Think of your arm as a shock absorber. Let the kick move your arm and if needed your body. Coil with the impact. Do not challenge it in anyway. Have that strong but soft feel to your arm. A shock absorber doesn’t just collapse but has a soft tension in the compression in it to absorb impact. Very hard to describe in words.
Soft and hard. Now there is a great topic. The soft and hard I subscribe to is the hard of Xing Yi and the soft of Bagua. This is in opposed to the hard of Shotokan and the soft of Aikido.
I will try to post a new thread here tomorrow night. I do not want to derail or hijack this one.
George just received the NLD part of the tape so it will take a little time before they fancy it up with nice headings and titles and such.
As for using your forearm to block a kick I would recommend a different approach (it is on the Kumite part of the tape).
Hold you arm the same as you would in Kumite. Think of your arm as a shock absorber. Let the kick move your arm and if needed your body. Coil with the impact. Do not challenge it in anyway. Have that strong but soft feel to your arm. A shock absorber doesn’t just collapse but has a soft tension in the compression in it to absorb impact. Very hard to describe in words.
Soft and hard. Now there is a great topic. The soft and hard I subscribe to is the hard of Xing Yi and the soft of Bagua. This is in opposed to the hard of Shotokan and the soft of Aikido.
I will try to post a new thread here tomorrow night. I do not want to derail or hijack this one.
The Ubiquitious Faltering Downblock
The Ubiquitious Faltering Downblock
I look forward to seeing your next post, Rick, whether you continue this one or start a post anew.
[edited for spelling]
Soft and hard. Now there is a great topic.
The downblock, as I know it, is a very complex movement resulting from the composition of a number of different techniques containing both the hard and the soft. Several obvious are parry, forearm twisting deflection, beginnings of some hidden grappling, and tearing, plus protecting the center line.Hold you arm the same as you would in Kumite. Think of your arm as a shock absorber. Let the kick move your arm and if needed your body. Coil with the impact.
Does that work when blocking a kick to the outside, Rick?Hold you arm the same as you would in Kumite. Think of your arm as a shock absorber. Let the kick move your arm and if needed your body. Coil with the impact. Do not challenge it in anyway.
I look forward to seeing your next post, Rick, whether you continue this one or start a post anew.
[edited for spelling]
Last edited by Deep Sea on Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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gmattson
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Rick's Video will be available for Xmas!
Final editing and titles being done by Scott D. and should be ready for duplication in either VHS or DVD format next week. Fantastic instructional tape... Highly recommended.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
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Dana Sheets
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Lots of good discussion on this thread. And room for more discussion. I'm very much in support of folks training for and being successful in competition sparring. I've very concerned by teachers (and students for that matter) who insist that competition sparring skills are exactly self-defense skills.
The idea that a "deadly technique" can't be trained is just horsefeathers to me. To quote a cliche - where there's a will there's a way. Sometimes I think folks may be a little too comfortable in their regular set routines and forget to step back and evaluate the goals of their lessons.
If your students want to have good sparring skills - teach those
If they want good self-defense skills - teach those
If they want both - teach both
Please just be clear about what you're teaching and training.
I don't want folks thinking that I don't love this style or think it's worthwhile to train. I love Uechi. Those that have seen me do Uechi know that I do my best to train hard. But as competition sparring has gotten safer and safer (especially at the lower levels where many of us mere mortal compete) there is more of a disconnect between what goes on in the typical local sparring tournament ring and what a moderate to severe sefl-defense situation is going to look like.
And I can't wait to see Rick's videos. Please hurry George!
The idea that a "deadly technique" can't be trained is just horsefeathers to me. To quote a cliche - where there's a will there's a way. Sometimes I think folks may be a little too comfortable in their regular set routines and forget to step back and evaluate the goals of their lessons.
If your students want to have good sparring skills - teach those
If they want good self-defense skills - teach those
If they want both - teach both
Please just be clear about what you're teaching and training.
I don't want folks thinking that I don't love this style or think it's worthwhile to train. I love Uechi. Those that have seen me do Uechi know that I do my best to train hard. But as competition sparring has gotten safer and safer (especially at the lower levels where many of us mere mortal compete) there is more of a disconnect between what goes on in the typical local sparring tournament ring and what a moderate to severe sefl-defense situation is going to look like.
And I can't wait to see Rick's videos. Please hurry George!
