Zen,Pt. II

[HALFORD E. JONES]

I recently came across two books that may help in trying to resolve any conflicts and contradictions one may be experiencing when it comes to martial arts in general and the role of religion or religious practices,etc. when one is of a different cultural and religious heritage or orientation(no pun intended). The first isSOUL SWORD by Vernon Kitaba Turner,who has two other interesting books under his belt,and the other is JESUS AND BUDDHA THE PARALLEL SAYINGS with an introduction by Jack Kornfield,who is well known in Buddhist circles. I also have noticed the increase in the number of Daoist,Buddhist, and Yoga magazines, all of which are interesting,colorful, and expensive if you gof or them all.As trendy as all these are, I think you have to exercise the Buddhist notion of Discrimination when it comes to actual purchase and understanding of the articles and writers. Have to dash. Let me know what you think. Halford

[KerryM]

Hi-

umm- quick question-

unless I missed it in the other topic-

why is it that no one- with the exception of hoshin- ? is it? has mentioned that karate- Uechi-Ryu is about the mind- the body and "the spirit"-

Hoshin you got so close earlier when you were coming up with the term-(MBCE or something) and please- don't take this as me stepping on any toes because far be it from me to do that- I would be horrified to think a post of mine had been taken that way-

and here's the "but"

we don't need a new term- mind- body and spirit-

it's in there already-

people just have diffrent definitions as to what it means to them personaly-which- if I re-call- "choice" and free-will is a pretty big deal. Worth dying for apparently- Know what I mean? Even some religious leaders have "done" that-


"Sanchin"- three conflicts right? Then you have your Tiger/ Crane/ Dragon-

Take a look at those animals- which one "can't" anyone technicaly touch and describe or talk about in any kind of absolute-? A dragon right?

Same thing with the "spirit" part-

Let's put all those animals into one room together- what ar they gonna do?

Who would win? LOL-

Three conflicts-

Spirit is in there- and "Zen" ness- should be as well-and I believe "is"-

it's just "taken in" diffrently by each practicing person

Love these topics btw-

personal opinion-

Kerry

[hoshin]

i made up the term MBCE rather tongue in cheek. exactly because as i found out, most people dont know what Zen really is. without first hand knowledge everyone seems to throw the term around and assume a meaning that is meaningfull to them or except the meaning that someone else has given to them ( ie. a karate teacher or religious figure) ,,people who themelves dont have a clue most of the time on this subject.
so i made up a name that one could not have any preconcived ideas about.

what i find ironic is the same people who seek truth in Mr. Canna's forum, about what works and what doesnt ,"that most people are living in a rose colored world thinking their magic karate chop will slay all comers". that just because some Karate grandmaster says so,,dosent make it so. they are very vigilant in their search for the truth but..
why is it that when it comes to Zen these people fall back on
"my teacher told me ...." or "i read in a book.."

now i am not saying these are bad sources of knowledge but one really should have a few experiences of their own and real knowledge before passing judgement on something.


(IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, TAKE NOTHING SECOND HAND.)

Hoshin
~~~~

[HALFORD E. JONES]

Most all knowledge is second-hand,handed down by teachers, in classes and schools, by masters, by books,etc. To have first-hand knowledge is very rare,indeed. Even so, unless one UNDERSTANDS what one comes to know, then it usually isn't enough to merely know. But,knowing is often better than mere belief,because believing doesn't necessarily make it so! Actually, there are three sources of knowledge,which are essentially impressions. The first set is set A which comes from ordinary, daily life, the culture and society in which we find oursleves by accident of birth.The language we speak, with its attendent sound and structure, influences how we receive all ideas and how we think and act,etc. The second set is Set B,which comes from schools which are schools of learning, religion, philosophy,psychology, and the like. This is a higher knowledge but still is not the highest. Influence or set C is the highest. This comes from sources beyond A and B and only a few persons ever develop enought to receive it, at least in any great degree of intensity and strength. We hear vaguely of Influences C through delving quite often into set B. However,some become so confined and enchanted with set B they ignore SET C. Until you begin to see how A influences, B influences, and C influences work, you cannot achieve very much. These are three parallel lines that demand simultaneous(if possible and it isn't,)work.

[hoshin]

Halford;
have you ever thought of writing a book? i would buy it!

to explain my point better ...
there are mulitiple people on these forums who belive in putting their knowledge of self defence to the "acid test" they take an idea and test it out in different ways to see if that idea holds up. however when it comes to ideas about the spirit or anything other then the physical side they avoid it like the plague!
what contradiction!!!

Hoshin
~~~~~

[KerryM]

Hey Hoshin- I wrote a book Seriously! Huh guys! It's a young adult fiction novel much like Harry Potter and or The Chronicals of Narnia- Guess what it's called?

"The Spirit Dragon"

I loved what you said here:

now i am not saying these are bad sources of knowledge but one really should have a few experiences of their own and real knowledge before passing judgement on something.

And what Mr. Jones said is extremely important as well-

but in "truth" all "truth" is completely reletive. (sp? yeah I wrote a book but I can't spell nor be grammaricaly sound ever- I don't even try LOL)

Each person will take a piece of information and process it through their (correct "there"? lol) own data base inside themselves to determine it's "worth" to them.

i.e. Two students waiting outside to be picked up after class-

"Sensei said the sky was black with thunder clouds today-"

*(another student says) well my MOM said the sky was PURPLE with the coming storm not BLACK-

in fact the sky could be both or neither- but both "saw" the sky- and both made interpretations on what "their teacher/parent/authority figure in their life" said about the way the sky looked.

See the problem?

"Both students made interpretations on what their *said authority figure* said about the sky- as opposed to looking up and forming their own "opinion"....



For the most part- what we read in books IS a great place to start- And we "have" Sensei's and GrandMaster's because we all still need to learn-

but I personaly believe it's always good/ even better to listen to all said points- then take a step back an look into it yourself and come up with your own conclusion-

"choice"

kinda goes with what you were saying-

right?

So I agree- if your karate feels like it's missing something- it probably is- ("zen" etc.) but it's always good to go with your own gut- and search for the missing piece yourself-

"where" you "find" that missing piece- might be discovered through the teachings of a grandmaster- a sensei- a mom- etc.....



*ahhh* dinner's ready- lol

(told ya I can't spell

K-

[jorvik]

Halford.
A lot of what you wrote in your last post seems to be from Gurdjieff, Ouspensky...and maybe Ovasson ( i.e. the zelator) ....mystery schools etc. I'm still searching...but it's amazing how quickly you can de-rail someone who isn't ....I tend to think like Steppenwolf ( good book by Herman Hesse ) to each his lot, and none is light.
If you need Jesus ....fair enough, if you need Zazen,Koan.....again fair enough..I won't dam or despise anyone's beliefs....but "imagine there's no religion"........bit pratty ( I grant you )..........but I mean by that ......No Zen to cling to..and yeh ....even when you're not clinging.....just nothing to look forward to, scary as hell ...cold wind blowing thru your soul......maybe emptiness matbe nothing

[HALFORD E. JONES]

in English translation,of course. His JOURNEY TO THE EAST and SIDDARTHA are two that you should tackle if you have not already. The BEAD GAME is a sort of forsight of a computerized world. You may know also that Carl Jung and Hesse shared some common interests and corresponded,etc. Jung, as you know, had a brief 'nazi'flirtation so read with caution all these 'Germanics'. Maybe ;Herrigel,Jung and Hitler had some things in common? Along with Zen.....Bushido......???

[jorvik]

Halford
I've only read Steppenwolf and Siddartha......both of which I enjoyed
check out
http://sped2work.tripod.com/humphreys.html
It mentions Somerste Maughan, and some of his writings about.....well the spritual life.

[HALFORD E. JONES]

THE RAZOR'S EDGE. Maugham also wrote a novel based on Aleister Crowley. I always had an uneasy feeling in reading Maugham's books and then years later I found out somewhat why: he was homosexual. Probably you know this already. Nevertheless, he traveled a lot, wrote a lot, and some of his works made it into movies. In some respects he was like Lawrence of Arabia, Richard Halliburton, etc. if you get my drift. Anyway, good reading.

[2Green]

Quote:"if your karate feels like it's missing something- it probably is- ("zen" etc.) but it's always good to go with your own gut- and search for the missing piece yourself- " ...Kerry M.

I think that's great advice!

NM

[jorvik]

Halford
I've never read any Maughan, only the bits on that site, which looked quite good and I wasn't aware that he batted for the other side ....I know he was married for a time
I will read some.
Thanks

[HALFORD E. JONES]

To help those interested in learning more about Zen and possible comparative relations to Christianity and so forth in order to reach another level of understanding these three books may prove helpful. MYSTICS & ZEN MASTERS by Thomas Merton; A HISTORY OF ZEN BUDDHISM by Heimrich Dumoulin,S.J.; and MYSTICISM:CHRISTIAN & BUDDHIST by D.T. Suzuki Let's discuss them after you have read them if you like.At least let me know your impressions of these works. Thanks. Halford

[Victor]

Hmmm, a non-religions view of Zen. I wonder if that is truly possible as zen is Zen Buddhism which derived or is the same as Chan Buddhism (all spelling are corrupted by over 30 years of not checkin the books correctly, on purpose to test you of course).

The very best description I've seen of zen study in writing are two amazing books by janweillem van de Wetering. "A glimpse of nothingness" and 'The Empty Mirror". In the first book he detailed his attempt to train in Zen in Japan. In the 2nd book he found one of his seniors living in America decades later and finally found a cup full of zen (my poor attempt of humor).

But literature or not, I think van de Wetering caputures the real concept of zen, the pain of sitting, the constant pain, and more pain. Not an intellectual study but a physical reality.

Somewhat similar to the recent articles on the Shaolin monks now teaching in the sates. One of the Seniors made the point, today all can study these arts (with us) ((of course my pharaphrasing his point)) but that doesn't make them Sholin, meaning without shaving ones head, becomming vegitarian and following Buddha, one really isn't Shaolin. a point I intellecutally understand.

On the other hand I can intelluctually understand my lips flapping don't necessarily make sense... Quick is it a bunny or a rabbit....... or what is the sound of one hand clapping....tooosh, tooosh, tooosh...and if you don't believe me let me share it with our face.

Sorry for my poor attempt at humor, but i see the conept of zen as vital with the full practice as I see Uechi only being something a Uechi instructor cna teach. I as an Isshinryu instructor can teach quasi-Uechi but its not the full thing is it.

And to further suggest a true pleasure, Janviellem van de Wetering (who is Dutch) is also a very good mystery writter. I would call his books about two dutch police inspectors, sort of a baroque mystery writter, with esquisite detail. definitely an acquired taste.

But then after 26 years of practice of Yang Tai Chi Chaun I never found it moving meditation either. ...but thats another topic.

Pleasantly,

[HALFORD E. JONES]

I have read all the detective stories of Van Wetering(who resides, or did, in Maine) but I thought he had passed away? I have read his work(s) on Zen. I got into a discussion with a guy,a Zen-ist, who runs a used book store and rare book store up in NH here and he dismissed Van Wetering and all others like him but, due to 'senior' moments, I can't recall exactly what his notions were or precisely why he dismissed Van Wetering. Maybe I'll re-read Van Wetering's books sometime to try and refresh my memory,etc. Thanks for the posting.