Reverse Engineering Seisan

[Bill Glasheen]

Everything is context, Dana. Sal is a unique physical specimen. Once again, I wouldn't force a preconceived sequence on him.

Yes, I feel very comfortable pulling big guys into me - particularly where I am inside the defenses. In my years of sparring before the protective equipment days, I often got the $hit beat out of me when in striking range. I rather like getting so close to a big guy that they can't hurt me. It was my only way of handling several fighters whose names I still remember today because of their rib-cracking and jaw breaking power.

Look at it this way, Dana. You stopped the sequence at the knee movement. What comes next? A cupped hand movement that works quite well as a groin strike. So I go to the face/neck, then the midsection, and then the groin. It's all done as a single movement in my kata flow; I have chosen to parse the sequence in a way different from yours. (With absolutely no claim of a superior point of view) Going to the groin twice seems redundant to me, unless I wanted to ring the bells one at a time...

Yes, your knee strike works beautifully, and you should keep doing it. Yes, I like it. No, it's not my favorite application of that technique - particularly because this is the only place in Seisan or any other Uechi kata where you can be doing a knee thrust as opposed to a knee strike. The mechanics of doing the two motions are very, very different. I like having both in my bag of tricks.

Actually hitting the testicles (as opposed to any other landmark in the groin area) is harder than you think, Dana. Their position can vary from person to person, and even vary within a person depending on body temperature. John Carria was pointing this out to me once, w.r.t. the takedown in dan kumite. He made me stomp down hard on him to prove a point. Yes, he has cahones... (I've seen his kids ). But yet I missed, even though I aimed at the suckers with my foot and hit hard. Point made.

I would prefer a lifting leg motion, like trying to kick a 50 yard field goal. My toes would be sticking out the back end of his leg "V" while lifting his body over the goal posts. Otherwise, I like the cupped hand strikes after the knee movement, where I can feel if I have it right and adjust accordingly if necessary.

Oh, and after the cupped hand strike to the groin - which makes them bend forward in pain - what about doing that circle "block" that you omitted? You want a finishing technique? That's an "out goes the lights" finisher.


- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

I would prefer a lifting leg motion, like trying to kick a 50 yard field goal. My toes would be sticking out the back end of his leg "V" while lifting his body over the goal posts.

This is the same movement I was trying to describe. Obviously it wasn't clear.
And if you were lifting someone in this manner - you would need your arms up and in post position to keep their head from flopping forward and cracking yours.

Actually the grab works two ways - it keeps them from falling backwards after you've pushed the head behind the hips and then it keeps them from falling forwards as you lift them up.

I know I stopped the sequence. That's part of McCarthy's model. That a kata is a string of little models stuck together.

Honestly - if you've just sent someone up and over the goal posts in the way we're talking about I don't think they're getting back up quickly.

--On a side note - I've heard tell that the stomp down in dan kumite was less about crushing the scrotum and more about breaking the pelvis. Does that seem feasible?--

Oh, and after the cupped hand strike to the groin - which makes them bend forward in pain - what about doing that circle "block" that you omitted? Wink You want a finishing technique? That's an "out goes the lights" finisher.

Now you're working ahead of the class Bill.

So let's try to catch up to you.

[Dana Sheets]

I realize that I mis-typed this when I created my original post. I mean to group all 4 of these techniques together.

I'll tell you why I didn't stick the first one of these onto the end of Sequence 2 - I didn't want to.

Sequence 3 and how it does or doesn't connect to sequences 2 & 4 is the toughest part of the kata for me in trying to apply this model. And I'm not yet satisfied at all with this series. And I'm full of more questions than answers about this one.

-it is after the first furi nukite that you make your first directional change in the kata. Why?
-then you do three of them in a row. The other two places you do three of something in a row in the same direction (centerline bushikens & downward shokens) seems to strongly represent "doing it until you get the job done." Does that hold true here?
-If these movements represent solo rehearsal and if these movements were meant to codify how you could use something then doing one furi knukite forward and then doing three in a row facing the opposite direction illustrated that 1) you were being attacked from behind and 2) you keep doing the movement until you get the job done....sigh...maybe...
- there's no circle thingy after the first strike. You just turn around. Being grabbed from behind is one of the habitual acts of physical violence.
-Low targets for those furi nukite can range from the groin to the bladder (and you can slap with an open palm.)
-is the sole purpose of this sequence was getting you out of the rear grab? Cause it works very well at doing that. But that doesn't fit the model - uke's still on his feet.
-I don't yet understand why the first one come off the rear leg to the front and the other three come off the back leg to the front.
-I remember Mr. Tomoyse showing at camp that when you "really" do the form your front hand doesn't stop until it's finished the circle block.
-I don't like the endless if, if, if this sequence offers.
-I know how to use this movement as a finishing takedown, but why FOUR IN A ROW?

So my final answer for this morning (and then I'm having coffee) is:
-once facing the front and then turning to show it was a rear attack
-three more times facing the rear to tell you to keep going until you're free
-not stopping on the circle thingy so that you can use it bridge out while uprooting their balance.

And just to review:
Sequence 1 = the attack was a forward forward moving uke (shove or punch)
Sequecne 2 = the attack was a forward moving uke (shove or grab)
Sequence 3 = a rear bear-hug

[Bill Glasheen]

Dana

This kata riddle is something that either is so subtle that it take years to get the "aha", or so intentionally general that the author intended you to think of myriad applications and just drill movement. I'm more a student of the latter, but sometimes the former is true.

You ask a bunch of good questions. I have some answers that work for me - today. I'll likely have different answers 10 years from now.

it is after the first furi nukite that you make your first directional change in the kata. Why?

****

there's no circle thingy after the first strike. You just turn around.

****

I don't yet understand why the first one come off the rear leg to the front and the other three come off the back leg to the front.

You are a very observant person, Dana. The more questions you ask and the more you scratch your head about "odd" aspects of this sequence, the more I feel comfortable with what I am thinking.

But there can be other interpretations...

Anyhow, Ed Glasheen - a jujutsu practitioner who I recently discovered and found out was a second cousin - has a website. It's relatively new, and he's still experimenting with material for the site. (BTW, I think he's now out on a tour of duty). Anyhow, he had this self defense sequence he was showing that looked very, very familiar. It solved the final piece of this riddle for me.

Here are the principles of these movements, Dana.

1) The low strike is the setup.

2) The next move after the strike and before the next low strike is the "lights out" technique.

3) The choreographers of these kata liked threes. It's a Shinto thing I guess...symbolizes something. It may symbolize other non-Shinto things, like hitting the person until they drop or maybe that the move means many things.

4) Sometimes repetition in kata is designed to make you ambidexterous.

Fine... Here's my solution to the riddle.

1) The first low strike is probably to the groin. It makes the person buckle over, and voila, the sweet target presents itself - the back of the neck.

2) The first time this target presents itself, the easiest way to get to the back of the neck is to turn your body around and slam it with the other arm. A hammer fist on the cervical spine will do.

3) The following times you do that movement, the easiest way to get to the back of the neck is by hitting it with the groin striking arm. Thus circle becomes a whole-body, neck-crushing smash with the shu to (hand blade).

Makes sense? This is easy to show with a bunkai.


This works. And it's not something you do to a friend. We're talking about KO at a minimum, with possible spinal damage and maybe death.

The first one, BTW, is the one Ed Glasheen was teaching his soldiers. Looks good to me.

Alternate appication -- A grappler and/or someone in law enforcement may chose to do head locks rather than neck smashes with the movements following the groin strikes. It all works...

- Bill

P.S. I still like the attack from behind application taught in seisan bunkai. I've done that so many times that my hand never, ever misses the target. I think my body is itching for someone to attack me like that one day... I also still like the idea of the arms as clearing (deflection) motions in the turn. It's all good. This is why you need to keep the movements as general as possible.

[Jackie Olsen]

Great Discussion Dana/Bill - I'm fascinated by your analyses ... it always amazes me that some people are able to articulate the moves/techniques so clearly in writing. For me I'm a 3-hit person... Read it, see it, do it ... before I understand it!

Regarding Hsing ...

Southern China in the 19th and 18th centuries were working off the idea of creating a "hsing" (Chinese character for "Model" when read in Japanese is said "Kata) and then stringing a bunch of "hsing" together in a geometric pattern to allow for easy memorization.

Way back in the early 90's I studied with an artist who said that the hsing-i (sing-ee) is the study of the form, meaning or idea - understand the meaning behind the form. A trained hsing-i practitioner would be able to read the 'I' or the meaning of the intention of his opponent in advance, and then be able to anticipate, counter and defeat him without much difficulty.

That is what we as students should look for in kata (and which Dana does so well). And kata not applied is merely a dance (though a beautiful one). Of all the katas, for me, Seisan is the most deeply buried, and when pushed to react, invariably a Seisan technique/movement will come out in response.

[Dana Sheets]

Hi Jackie,

Hope all is well - I hope we can figure out a way to visit in real life soon instead of virtual reality.

"What comes out when I am pushed" is one of the main reasons I have for trying to analyze Uechi's main 2 fighting kata with McCarthy's model.

When I'm pushed - Uechi should come out if Uechi makes sense as a fighting model. I was happy that when I went and did the adrenal stress training I was frustrated by their helmet heads - because I couldn't shoot my bushiken into their throat or hit anywhere on the neck. So that's good - my body wanted to target some things under stress using my Uechi.

So when I never see a move come out I start to question my understanding of that technique.

Bill is great to talk to about these things because he's good at identifying patterns of movement across more than an instant of time. And most of the time I do train the idea that if you can make it work - then it's a fine bunkai. However for this thread I'm really focused on the idea of a "finishing" bunkai. One that leaves the uke unable to continue the confrontation.

Dana

[Dana Sheets]

1) The first low strike is probably to the groin. It makes the person buckle over, and voila , the sweet target presents itself - the back of the neck.

2) The first time this target presents itself, the easiest way to get to the back of the neck is to turn your body around and slam it with the other arm. A hammer fist on the cervical spine will do.

3) The following times you do that movement, the easiest way to get to the back of the neck is by hitting it with the groin striking arm. Thus circle becomes a whole-body, neck-crushing smash with the shu to (hand blade).

Makes sense? This is easy to show with a bunkai.

Yes - makes sense. Still doesn't really address the arm moving to the rear. And you've got to turn your arm over a bit to smash the neck...not in the kata.

Your applications work - when you add a little something to them. I'm trying my best to find applications that work with the kata moves as is without extra Dana or Bill or anyone else in them. So - I'll remain a little unsatisfed with this move and move on to the next series. Maybe someone else will jump in with a novel approach.

[Bill Glasheen]

Still doesn't really address the arm moving to the rear.

???

I thought I addressed that.

You "groin strike" off the rear arm first. When the neck presents itself, It's easiest to get at it with a counterclockwise pivot and attack (or neck lock) with the other arm.

You "groin strike" subsequently off the front arm. When the neck presents itself, it's easiest to get at it with the same arm you hit with. No need to reorient the body.

Am I missing something?

Your applications work - when you add a little something to them.

Indeed, Dana. This fits with my personal philosophy about how to do kata. As the Okinawans say, kata is kata, and application is application. Never, ever try to make the kata be literal. Do the movements in the most general way, and that allows your body to "find" the maximum number of applications. It also helps train your body to make adjustment to all the myriad differences between what you practiced in the dojo in your simulation (bunkai) and what presents itself to you in real life.

This IMO is why the Uechi system only needed 3 forms, vs. other Chinese systems having sometimes dozens and dozens. With generalization comes parsimony.

But of course this is the world according to Bill. If it still doesn't feel right to you, keep looking. Maybe one day you will find something I haven't.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Series 4 = slide forward hit with double bushikens, grab with double shokens & turn

The traditional seisan bunkai give us the following - shoot the oncoming shover in the inguinal crease or the floating ribs with your fingertips or your bushikens, then grab onto a good hunk of flesh & muscle and throw your uke into the oncoming attack from your right.

And ya know - if folks often dealt with multiple attacker scenarios in Fukien Provience in the 19th century then this is a great way of doing it.

Bill's mentioned and I've seen that taller men working on shorter partners like to hit higher and grab the armpits instead of the waist.

In talking with a physical therapist - the position of pointing the two shokens right at each other is important for recruiting additional muscles and lining up everything so you can bear weight on your forearms.

Be fun to take someone in that posture sometime and see just how much weight they can hold in stasis. The good news is that in application you're not in stasis and you've rocked uke's center of balance so you can pivot them easily.

I don't really have a better one for this. A couple of Dillman's student's showed me that if your uke bends over far enough you can shove both your shokens nicely into the place known as TW17. A nice application but it didn't address the snapping pivot to the right. They said something about cracking the neck but that didn't make sense to me. And you're still dealing with the - if they bend over that fast uke could crack me in the head with his head - possibility. But if you can really hit the inguinal crease hard enough to release the hips it's not so much of a problem.

The really nice thing about this move is something that you rarely see in class. If you really dig your grip into your Uke and grab hard on the soft tissue then uke's hands magically find your hands trying to make you stop. Which means that they're no longer trying to hit you.

My biggest problem with this move is reach. Against someone with a longer reach this move doesn't work without first deflecting their arms somehow and by the time you do that you usually want to do something different.

[Guest]

I see this sequence (4)as a defence against a leg grab. stick nukites into the sweet spot were the neck joins collar bones
they sink in deep!

The double inward shokens rising through the turn are a kick as$ choke that sparks up alot of presure points as well.

I'm not going to pick up fat guys by their love handles...they just might like it

[Dana Sheets]

You "groin strike" subsequently off the front arm. When the neck presents itself, it's easiest to get at it with the same arm you hit with. No need to reorient the body.

Am I missing something?

When you strike off the front foot what is the rear foot hand doing if you don't need it to hit the neck?

[Bill Glasheen]

Ahhh... Now I understand what you are saying.

I think this is just the message that the strikes work both for front and for back. We already have the bunkai with the grab from behind, and this is one of the habitual acts of violence. So that's a good thing.

Also, the space you create when keeping both arms away from the body like that creates what I like to call the blowfish effect. You cannot be "swallowed" from behind when you make yourself big like that (two arms away from the body, front & back, at sanchin angle). Same goes with a bearhug from the front. Once the person pins both arms to your body, you're in big trouble.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

The bunkai pretty much covers number 4.

To expand on what Dana said...I teach that where you strike and grab depends on the size of the partner you face. If they are tall, just grab their belt loop, and get all the skin and stomach hair you can. If they are your size, grab the skin around the ribs. The most interesting thing happens (to me) when they are your size or slightly smaller. Then I can take those nukites and thrust them in the armpits. You have a nerve bundle there that controls the entire arm. Hit it right and you get quite an effect. And then you grab the skin/hair in and around the edge of the pectoralis muscle, and lift away.

I suppose if your nukites were strong enough, you could thrust into the femoral crease (a.k.a. the inguinal area) and get a reaction. But you still need to grab the belt from there. But you can't really get a good lift if your arms are too low w.r.t. your own body. Anyhow, I've seen some "interesting" KO demos done by kyusho people hitting there. Maybe... I remain skeptical.

The neat thing about this technique is that when you grab flesh around the ribs and drive the shokens in, it makes the person go up on their tippie toes. This then makes it easy to move them.

Also, I teach small people to grab and then move their body w.r.t. the opponent rather than the other way around. This is how I would handle Sal.

Laird

Very creative application. I never thought of that one...

- Bill

[Stryke]

Dana , I`m always impressed with your forum and training , but I must admit this thread makes me happy .

I`m glad your exploring Kyoshi McCarthys work and looking beyond .

hope this comes across the right way . Your on the right path IMHO

Ive been through the reverse engineering process with all my Shotokan Kata , and it`s been invaluable .

Simple but Brutal I`m sure youve heard those words from McCarthy .

It`s all about learning the alphabet , as you already know the sentences .

Habitual acts of physical violence

key word .... Habitual .....

how many ways do we need to block a punch .

anatomical weaknesses .

hard wired reactions ?

Me and Laird are having the greatest time exploring Uechi , he shows me variations of the defensive themes (ala Uechi) and I show him the same defensive themes interpreted differently (ala shotokan etc etc )

Am I insane ? Uechi and shotokan similar ?

well yes and no in the template

hope more chime in and add to your discussion , wish I knew the kata well enough to add more , truly positive stuff .


good luck , I know you`ll find the answers .

[Stryke]

Ok series 10 three Sanchin strikes and turns

garbbing and drawing and breaking balance , Sanchin thrusts under the arm for a half body lock clinch .

Balance is broken from the draw , no strength on strength .

turn to hip throw , three times