Uechi-ryu vs Shotokan

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:54 am

Marcus, my instructor had me balance on a fence while in kokutsu dachi and he'd throw stuff at me that I had to "block". He also had me do the foot work from tekki shodan while on a log (telephone pole). That's one of the best methods for learning body awarness and balance that I've come across. I need a couple of hours on that log once the weather clears.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:08 am

Thought I`d repost this for all the folks who think Shotokans a blunt weapon only style .

From one of Shigeru Egamis books .

In shotokan ... well the zukis might just be symbolic afterall

Good to see the uechi folks using the proper blocks

check Out Ricks conditioning clip , see alot of good shotokan there

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtop ... 770c1e69e4

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:19 am

Sorry: couldn't let this go by...

"In Isshinryu the first kata I learned was Seisan but that's an advanced kata in Uechi, but in Ishhin Ryu sanchin is advanced but it's Uechi-ryus first. It is funny how different arts look at what's important. They all eventually arrive at about the same place, if their goals are the same, just in a different order..." Elmar

My understanding is that one of the reasons Sanchin is our first Uechi Kata is that its principles and strengths are carried forward into all the Kata.
Doing Seisan without a strong foundation in Sanchin is not in my opinion going to produce the same Seisan in the end.
It would be like learning math starting with algebra, then learning addition in Grade 8.

So my point is: I think the ORDER is what produces the quality of Kata, and I don't think learning them in a different order (i.e., Sanchin introduced at Dan ranks) would produce the same end result.

And why do I think this? Shamed to admit, but because I've seen fellow Uechika doing Seisan without a strong Sanchin foundation, and boy, does it look harmless.

NM

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:40 am

Neil i`m not sure about this , while I think the order and structure of uechi is very linear and conducive many other styles are less cohesive .

Naihanchi should be the foundation of Shotokan and these days it`s very unpopular , and may have a lot to do with the lack of grounding now seen in many places .

But having said that each kata is but a peice and a training aid , You can learn different principles in different orders , they just reinforce and open up differently as you go along .

it`s not what your taught but how your taught almost .

It`s not surprising that someone with a poor kata (sanchin) moving on to another kata without base ,would then ad another poor kata to there list .

It`s just life imitating art

If it was up to me though Sanchin makes a lot more sense .

Breathing and stepping are the essence , as in Sanchin , wether we see that as the hardest thing so we start with it or end with it is an interesting question .

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:07 am

Hi Stryke:
The truth is I've never practised any other art than Uechi, so I only know what I've studied about the other styles.
But one thing's for sure, our style is built upon Sanchin, and its principles are carried along to every succeeding Kata.
I don't know if this is true of other styles--is this true of Shotokan, or any other styles you're familiar with?
Is there a "foundational" Kata that is the cornerstone?

NM

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:15 am

If I may also ask a question? Is there also body conditioning in other styles such as shotokan..do they have anything similiar to kotekitae or train with jars to strengthen the grip..is this something that is unique to Uechi or do many other styles practice the iron body skills we use for conditioning..training to be able to take a hit as well as to deliver them? I'm curious about this..

Thanks
Jeff

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:22 am

Hey Neil , i think what your describing Is a real Strength of Uechi

the common foundation kata are either Sanchin , or the Heians

having said that the original kata of Funikoshi were the Naihanchi or Teki kata .

these kata also focus on grounding an posture .

The Heians or Pinans were originally created to teach in okinawa schools to young children .

they are very good kata IMHO , I sometimes think better than some of the more advanced kata .

however i dont see the concentration on grounding and base . It is there but not like Sanchin or Naihanchi ...

But remember we have 26 kata to iron this out

(originally 15 and ive cut down even further to fit prqactice time on some Uechi ones)

Uechi is very progressive , the flow from Sanchin seisan to sanseiru is obvious , the other kata deseigned to fit obviously .

I tend to beleive that each kata can be a style unto itself , some naturally go together , and all reinforce principles , and principles transcend style and kata .

So theres a no help answer for you mate

so basically

I do like Uechi as a progressive collection of kata .

I dont think it`s necessary to do things in order , even if it would help .

And one mans fundementals are another mans advanced techniques .

and the truly great MA knows there the same thing .

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:27 am

Hey Jeff , depends on the School

Kyokushin deffinately does conditioning

Shotokan these days is not known for it

, but heck we used to get well banged up and it did condition you , just wasnt systematic and therefore not as good IMHO .

Ive seen it in Goju Ryu , but i dont know if thats purest stuff .

I think uechis got a lot of the market on this one , although I`m sure all styles did it at one stage .

Comes down to the individual school and practitioners I`d think .

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:27 am

Very astute observation.
I must think on that awhile.

NM

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:32 am

thanks for the info on that.I had wondered about others.but i see what you're saying as it might depend largely upon the school and that hadn't crossed my mind but i see that now..thanks..

Jeff

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:35 am

And if there was one kata that epitimised shotokan it would be Kushanku

or kankudai

it does reference many of the other katas and you keep coming back to it .

But is far from the first taught

interesting questions , good to think about .

Ive been pondering this stuff myself , hence my new found enthusiasim for tekki

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:48 am

Doing Seisan without a strong foundation in Sanchin is not in my opinion going to produce the same Seisan in the end.
It would be like learning math starting with algebra, then learning addition in Grade 8.

Neil, styles train differently because each has a philosophy towards fighting. I can't think of doing anything with Uechi-ryu without doing Sanchin and refer back to it all of the time, but I can use Shotokan or Isshin-ryu just fine without it. The version of Seisan that Isshin-ryu has is full of that styles flavor and maybe the styles cornerstone kata. Isshin-ryu's main stance, the seisan stance, comes from it's version of the kata. But IMO it's connection to sanchin isn't there.

Is there a "foundational" Kata that is the cornerstone?

From what I know the physical foundation for Shotokan is the Heian and at least Tekki Shodan if not also Nidan and Sandan.

Thought I`d repost this for all the folks who think Shotokans a blunt weapon only style.

Marcus I showed a Shoto friend Kanshu kata and he showed me another reason for the upside down sanchin thrusts. His favorite street weapons are the nukite and nakadaka-ken (middle finger ippon).

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:50 am

We really need to change the name of this thread

It`s so hard on Uechi

Reminds me of the time we were having a Seminar with a Goju ryu instructor/freind and he asked why Goju chambers higher than Shotokan ...

I replied It`s because we hit harder

At the end of the day it`s all karate , more and more folks are coming to realise this .

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:54 am

Marcus I showed a Shoto friend Kanshu kata and he showed me another reason for the upside down sanchin thrusts. His favorite street weapons are the nukite and nakadaka-ken (middle finger ippon).

Proof theres shoto conditioning out there

very cool

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:54 am

Shotokan these days is not known for it , but heck we used to get well banged up and it did condition you , just wasnt systematic and therefore not as good IMHO.

In my TKD school sparring handled the conditioning. With shotokan I'm being taught to harden just a part of the body that's being hit. Kind of like when a body builder flexes a isolated muscle.

What I like about Uechi-ryu is that I have to develop the pointy things. You just can't get around them. So maybe for me good Uechi-ryu should also make good Shotokan.

man is this thread moving fast....

Uechi-ryu vs Shotokan

Hi guys.

Thanks Marcus...