Electricity and Physics

[Stryke]

but I don't see broken ribs as a fight ender. It ends many tournament matches but I've never see footage or heard tell of one that ended a street fight. I'm happy to be enlightened though.

Care to enlighten me to evidence that any Uechi techniques are 1 blow fight enders on the street Dana ? .

The fact is if you do that much damage to a person in 1 blow it`s a good technique , you should have the skills to finish of someone from there . But I hear your point , when I had my Ribs cracked I went on and won . And Jorvik , I also Broke my hand another time and went on and won .

so breaks arent always fight enders , but I`d rather not have to deal with them , theres a lot of shock when a Rib goes , I`d equate it to result wise to CNS shock type damage , same result anyhow IMHO

[jorvik]

quote
Jorvik , can you really not see it ?

NO ONE IS DISSING BOXING !!!!!!

no i couldn't ...It has had such a profound effect on me.....................boxing I mean, i only understood violence from that viewpoint.......it is quite deep really, most folks miss that because it seems so simple........hit n get hit.then take it from there .back to basics, really

[gmattson]

Tell us what you recommend, not what is wrong with what those "other people" are doing"!

First, you won't convince them that they are wrong.
Second, they won't give a flying #$@% about what you have to say, because you dissed what they are doing!

I thought we went over this rule before!

[MikeK]

Hmmm maybe picking the side thrust kick is a bad idea but I don't see broken ribs as a fight ender.

Same experience as Marcus and I agree with his post. I had mine cracked during a belt test and still managed to complete the test that included several more rounds of sparring. On the other hand I've dropped some people with a shot to the ribs, and in turn I've been dropped by rib shots. It's also what ribs you hit and the angle you hit them that can turn them from ouchies to fight enders. But I agree that they don't always end a fight.
Once again the criterea that I'm having drilled into my head is, "if he can't see he can't fight, if he can't stand then he can't fight, and if he can't breath then he can't fight." So instead of looking for a one shot fight ender I'm looking for one or more off the list of three. If he's standing, breathing and looking at me then the fight isn't over. At least that's what I'm trying to learn.

I think of a "jab" as a snapping movement because you pull it back while it still has forward potential.

Dana, Depends on what kind of jab. You can flick a jab or you can stick a jab, and some guys have a power jab that has a lot of hip in it. Also jabs tend to be long range techniques with most of the forward potential used up. At least that's how I learned them.

Bill's explaination about hitting something with more force than it can absorb = damage is very useful. This is what I'm getting at when I talk about striking vs pushing.

I watched a buddy of mine take full side kicks and the kickers were knocked back. He does iron body similar to Uechi's and he grounded himself so the impact went back into the kicker and not him. So their striking movement got converted into them pushing themselves back. Very cool and fun.

[Guest]

Hmmmmmmmm seems to me you might have mentioned it before George

I'm not a believer in one shot one kill....but I try to take folks out with each shot I throw.

The human body is a very tough machine that's hard to stop. If the individual has a determined mind set it's even tougher. If they are on certain drugs or enraged, even tougher.

I can remember eight broken bones in my hands, you tend to lose count.Sx of them were broken in fights...I won them all. A broken hand rarely stops anyone, I only noticed breaking my hand twice while fighting the other times I noticed when it was over.

But as Van has pointed out a broken swollen hand may create problems if you have to deploy a weapon. This can equate to your demise. Best not to bang the skull with closed fists.

I broke two floating ribs at camp one year. I noticed it instantly and reacted to the pain. But I trained the rest of that day and all of the next day. I was definetely done at the end of that last day. I think the bo kata did me in.

Bottom line, broken ribs didn't stop me...But, if it had happened in a fight instead of training I suspect my opponet would have beaten me senseless as I dropped all defense and just reacted to the break.

When the trama is severe enough thats where your awareness goes to the damage, this leaves a big oppening for your attacker. So a technique that damages the rib cage may not end the fight but it may provide an entry to finish it.

[Stryke]

Best to follow the GEM golden rule...
Tell us what you recommend, not what is wrong with what those "other people" are doing"!

First, you won't convince them that they are wrong.
Second, they won't give a flying #$@% about what you have to say, because you dissed what they are doing!

I thought we went over this rule before!

What is this in reference George , no one has dissed anything

1) Myself and Jorvik have agreed to disagree

2) we have established no one is dissing any style

3) Jorvik stated it was a misunderstanding ... no problem it happens

mature conversation is what the forums are about yes ? , there has been no name calling , no personal attacks , and yes misunderstandings happen .

As long as no one takes a superior tone and starts throwing there weight around I see no problem .

Me and Jorvik have butted heads many times perhaps , but he`s a civil guy and adds much to discussion . I consider him an asset to the forums and a diverse interesting martial guy .

[jorvik]

Marcus,
Me and Jorvik have butted heads many times perhaps , but he`s a civil guy and adds much to discussion . I consider him an asset to the forums and a diverse interesting martial gu

No need for name calling, who are you calling a small donkey ( asset )

[Stryke]

I should put a couple squid on you doing that ....

Maybe a deep sea diver

Crash Bang Wallop ... it`s a gooden

Hey Jorvik ... glad ya picked up on it .. and folks think I cant spell

[Dana Sheets]

Huh. The responses to this thread are not quite what I expected at all.

First off - it is not my intention to say that other styles can't fight, don't have effective technique, or anything of the like. I initially cited the side-thrust kick as an example of one type of technique that often ends up pushing people away rather than dropping them in their tracks. I know it is a favorite technique of many - especially in tournaments - but I still don't think of it as a common street technique.

Most fights that I know of that ended in a single blow ended with a closed fisted punch. That's what a vast majority of the world throws according to my understanding of anecdotes shared on these forums. I haven't seen a majority of fights for myself so I can't really say anything for sure.

I am a Uechi stylist - so that means I study the use of one knuckle strikes, thumb knuckle strikes, toe kicks, wrist strikes and finger tip strikes in various forms. So my studies are around how to maximize the effectiveness of those techniques and why or why not they might be more effective than a closed fist or a flat foot.

This shouldn't be emotional really - just an exploration of what is possible. I think it is possible that someone who trains their hands in a way that they can put more force per square inch on smaller surfaces may have a higher probability of causing damage to what they hit.

I think women need every possible advantage they can get to hit in a way that will cause damage.

The closed fist is a terrible weapon for women. And since women really weight a lot less than men - side thrust kicks are one example of a technqiue that relies on a certain weight to power ration to be highly effective.

So what techniques if well trained and well applied yield the higher percentage chances of causing damage to the bad guy?

[Van Canna]

But Lewis and Norris both endorse boxing..and especially Lewis....so Van ,I really don't know where you are coming from

Funny man, Jorvik. The comment was about kicks, not punches, so I don’t know where you are coming off on this one.

Honestly Van who gives a flying Fck

Apparently you do give a flying Fck, pal. You continue to miss the point as you did and continue to do so about the force continuum.

Yeah would a bitch slap work against Lewis. I think not
....and he is nowhere near someone like Tyson or Ali...........hate to burst bubbles ...Yeah it would be cool against a nomark plastic gangster wannabe...but to someone learning "karate"..as opposed to fighting guys for fun..pleeeeeeeeeez

It’s like Stryke said, Jorvik, you don’t seem to follow the logic of these discussions. But, hey, it makes for good entertainment.

[Van Canna]

The Medical Doctors, Physical Therapists and Occupational Therapists the author interviewed all agreed that with the palm strike done correctly the chances of injuring the hand are slim. "The position of Maximum Boney stability in the hand is the close-pack position which is full extension of the hand.

Full extension of the hand is the palm strike position," according to Bill Partridge, Physical Therapist of Nassau/Suffolk Physical Therapy in Syosset, NY.
Taking shooting and/or firearm retention into consideration, the palm strike seems to be the logical choice of strikes.


Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator's teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid.


However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas.


"The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily."

"The skin on the Dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm," says O.T.R. Faye Grant.

According to Dr. Kandel, "When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".
Germs do not fester as easily in the fleshy palm of the hand as they do in the knuckles.

There have been cases where cuts caused by human teeth on knuckles resulted in the hand being surgically removed to stop the spread of Gangrene.

By all means, Jorvik, continue to train to use punches in survival situations. Good luck.

[MikeK]

or a flat foot.

Dana, not to beat a dead horse but if you're landing your side kick with the flat and not the blade or the heel then that could be the problem. Hitting with the flat is the "safe" sparring way to use it. Sorry if we sounded emotional.

So what techniques if well trained and well applied yield the higher percentage chances of causing damage to the bad guy?

Here's what's currently in my empty hand toolbox. For me it's elbow breaks, kicks to the knee area, testicle grabs, upward angled shots to the floating ribs, throat grabs and throat strikes (ala Kanshu which is my current favorite kata). Stepping on someones foot and shoving can rip the ligaments in the foot if they go down. I don't hit much to the front of head with any kind of strike open or closed. I use elbows, close in pokes to the eyes, palm strikes, slaps, rakes, grabs to the neck and some hair grabs.

I'm going to do some training today and I'll ask my friend what he teaches females for self defense. I know he and some of his cohorts taught a battered wife self defense class a few years back and he still teaches the occaisional female who needs some quick SD.

Well it's off to the boonies for some training in the great out of doors!

[jorvik]

Hey Van,.............didn't realise that you were an artist( )
quote
So what techniques if well trained and well applied yield the higher percentage chances of causing damage to the bad guy?

Well folks will probably disagree with this as well, because the guys who use this technique decided to improve their already formidable art by incorporating English boxing
,
but non the less I'd use the thai-boxers elbow strikes, over the years it has produced a steady rash of fatalities, the most dangerous strike is a circular elbow to the temple....elbows are about as fast as hooks if you practice them well. Also the use of the elbow is banned just about everywhere apart from some places in the far east most notably Thailand
Quote
WEAPON - The Elbow

Sok Ti (Striking Elbow) - Thai boxing's Sok Ti is used to attack target areas around the chin, the bridge of the nose and between the eyebrows, and the solar plexus. To produce the Sok Ti, bend the elbow tightly, twist the shoulder, and thrust your body in the opposite direction aiming to strike the elbow against the upper body targets.
If your opponent counters with a punch, attempt to brush it away with a fist, and re-swing the elbow at the most vulnerable target.

Sok Tad (Cutting Elbow) - This ferocious move targets the jars, chin, or even the ribs, if you lower your body to launch a strike.
Produce this move by raising the arm to the side so it is parallel to the floor, bending the elbow to give a 30 degree angle; keep the arm parallel to the floor at all times, even during the swinging movement the angle of the elbow. Move one foot forward, putting pressure on the ball of the foot to establish a firm base. Follow with the back leg and be ready to twist the heel to add to the momentum of the elbow cut.The punching bag is the best tool to use when practising the Sok Tad.

Sok Ngad (Lever Elbow) - The Sok Ngad can be far more powerful than a punch and is often used in conjunction with the uppercut.

Generally, Thai boxers adopt quite a loose guard, exposing the upper body and face, so the Sok Ngad is a valuable component in your Thai boxing artillery.

To execute, you must quickly place your foot between the opponent's legs with one arm prying open the guard, rapidly launch the elbow directly upward, aiming for the chin. The instant you straighten your body, the elbow will make hard contact with the opponent's chin. Needless to say, an effective and accurate Sok Ngad can devastate an opponent, even rendering him unconscious.




Sok Chieng (Diagonal Elbow) - The Sok Chieng's speed and use of the rough elbow edge can give an opponent an open cut to the chin or jaw line.
Raise your arm forwards, parallel to the floor; bend your arm bringing the fist across your face and up in front of your opposite eyebrow. This initial stance gives you protection against any punches from your opponent. To launch the Sok Chieng, if you're striking with the left elbow, move your right foot forward, close to your opponent, and twist your shoulder to thrust the elbow diagonally upward.

Sok Kratuk (Jerking Elbow) - This move can easily devastate an opponent although it is not seen much now in the professional Thai boxing ring. To use a Sok Kratuk, your body must be angled sideways to your opponent. With your left shoulder, for example, now directly in front of the other Thai boxer, a left elbow can be swung in a parallel motion. The target of the Sok Kratuk is, ideally, the Adam's apple or neck.

Sok Tong (Downward - Smash Elbow) - The Sok Tong must be performed very quickly; if not, it can leave you very vulnerable to counter punches. To execute, you must first position your foot between the opponent's feet, raising your elbow higher than your opponent's head - then smashing downwards with the elbow, aiming for the bridge of the nose.

When smashing downwards, use your other arm to guard the area from your chin to your solar plexus.

Sok Klab (Reverse Elbow) - The Sok Klab is considered one of the fiercest weapons available to a Thai boxer. Interestingly enough, maintaining a proper guard is the most important part of executing the move successfully.

Begin by stepping close to your opponent. If you want to use the right elbow, step with the left foot. You can even position the ball of your foot on your opponent's toes. To make contact, swing body around and jerk the elbow back at the target. You would be aiming for the bridge of the nose, chest or solar plexus.
check out
http://www.fairtexbkk.com/resource_body.asp#elbow

there used to be a great resource by a thai guy called unsurpringly Mr.Elbow..............he had some great vid clips.used to be ww.elbow dotcom but I can't find it anymore........I only ever throw straight punches until I can get into elbow range, that is of course when I practice alone
when I do punching arts such as Wing-Chun I do what my friend tells me to

[Van Canna]

Hey Van,.............didn't realise that you were an artist

( )

Thanks, Jorvik. I enjoy putting pictures to words, such as in ‘your words about punching’ _LOL _ Just be sure you don’t end up like the artist in the photo.

Boxing is effective but very risky on the street, thus the reason why the old pangainoon masters did not program much punching in the katas.

They were smarter than you thought.


Mr. elbow,

Now you are talking my language. I have a whole repertory of elbow applications, along with openhanded strikes, knees, head butts, web of the hand rips to the throat, and face into the ground ‘slamming’ takedowns.

What really works, along with the occasional rib buster uppercut a la Jim Maloney style. Best in the business.

[Dana Sheets]

Please note that the gentleman that Van used in his illustration did not lose his limbs in a fight. He is Hsieh Kun-shan, an individual who overcame a horrific work-related accident at age 16 and has gone on to become an accomlished painter.

For further reading on his life you can visit the following:
http://taipei.tzuchi.org.tw/tzquart/2004su/qs2.htm

Elbows are wonderful, wonderful weapons. Easily trained, very effective with little to no conditioning and generally unexpected.

Mike - I'm totally confused by your definition of a jab.

...jabs tend to be long range techniques with most of the forward potential used up....

That seems to me to be the opposite definition of a jab. In a jab the target is well within range and the limb need not fully extend to make contact. By that definition a jab is a short-range technique. Quick in/Quick out.

I'm not doing a good job of keeping up with everything that's going on in this thread. There are many valid points being put forward and I'm also glad folks have been clearing up confusion as they go. That helps everyone stay in the discussion.

I'm still focused on the idea that a human isn't a heavy bag because humans come with an electrical system in addition to a lot of semi-liquid mass. Obviously if you hit most folks hard enough they fall down - but I might not be able to generate that kind of shotgun power. So then I need to think about doing more with less.

Slap someone across the face and you get pain, flinch, possible damage/dislocation to various joints/bones, possible ring in the ears and an upset of the body's balance. That seems to be lots of good stuff in a small package. Everyone can slap and with a bit of training most can slap good and hard.

Slap a heavy bag and it might swing a bit...but unless you're a nice big strong person then what you'll feel is a sting in your hand and the bag will kind of bounce in place.

So a technique that is very effective on people really doesn't look like much on a heavy bag. This is the disconnect I see in some training. Folks bang bang bang away on kicking shields, focus mits, and heavy bags...but are they learning how to strike people well?

Obviously some of it works well because boxers knock each other out on a regular basis. However Mr. Tomoyose told us a little folk tale that when the young boys would fight in China with closed fists they would let the boys fight. When the boys opened their hands then they would be pulled apart for fear that now they would injure one another.

Just a folk tale...but could be an important lesson.