Kumite As A Self Defense Training Progression

[Mills75]

I don't know how you guys do it lol.. I'm going kumite crazy lol..This kumite talk will lead you to looking for a couple of shots of awemori..lol

[Guest]

Sounds like a plan Jeff Good thing this is a friendly chat on kumites, you should see how nasty the chi chats can get .

[Mills75]

Not that other word again too. If you really want to get people going nuts you got to start a thread on the newly created chi kumite lol... it's stagnant and progressive and not even a kumite all in one...

[Guest]

your evil man

[Bill Glasheen]

I had a business trip to Waltham, MA this week, and had no access to the Internet. I am pleased to see this controversial topic handled so well. In large part it is due to Greg's great article.

Halfway through reading it, I could tell it wasn't George. Definitely a horse of a different color. Nevertheless, he and George read off the same hymnal, and Greg has done a marvelous job of articulating George's thinking and dojo approaches (and mine as well, BTW).

My only issue with Greg's article is his use of "uke" and "tori." I believe he got it backwards in part, making it confusing for someone who uses the terms. But that's just an editing issue... Greg is right on target IMO with the content.

Glad to see others join in, and the conversation flow well.

I have some commentary along the way.

what about Dan Kumite? I've been doing it for months now and I still feel like a complete novice at times (esp., when paired with a black belt ). I can see cases where introducing these ideas too fast can ruin technique over the long term.

I'm kind of wishing that many of my students who work with me would speak up here. Many do come on these forums, but are lurkers.

My response, chewy, is that these kinds of variations on the theme - although not necessarily these in particular - should be done right off the bat. IMO, they can be part of you getting the expertise and flow that you desire.

Over time I have developed a very different view of both the yakusoku kumite and the kata. Rather than view them as story lines, I see them as reference books. Do you read a reference book cover to cover like a novel? Of course not; it was never meant to "flow" that way. There is no magic to the sequence of material in a reference book other than by logic of order which makes it easy to use.

When I'm teaching either a kata or a yakusoku kumite, I teach it pieces at a time. Even when we do them in class, I personally will start on bits and parts of a kata or a yakusoku kumite. I'll often take parts out, and choreograph my own solo or partner patterns on the spot. I'll make people drill these on both sides until they are at least more comfortable with the concepts than they were before doing them.

Another thing I'll do is watch people do either the kata or yakusoku kumite. When I see the most glaring issues, I'll then dive in at that point and take a "freeform" lesson in that direction.

And guess what? If you ever read about how Kanbun Uechi taught, this is basically what he did. It is reported that he rarely had people do kata from beginning to end in class. There never was a battle lesson to memorize that you were supposed to apply intact at the moment of truth.

The moves don't lend themselves to any kind of "flow", unless you have a credible amount of balance, good timing and other things that are required by most styles of martial arts.

Hmm...

I agree that there is no magic in the sequence. As I have stated before, the sets are reference books and not novels.

I disagree that there is no flow. Or maybe I should be flattered when you say that one needs to be at a certain level to see it. On the contrary, I use the sequences in both kata and the "decent" yakusoku kumite sequences to show the logic in the strategy of the two partners and the flow of one's movement. Whenever I can make someone understand it, they no longer need to "memorize" things so much. Things just happen because they make sense. Even when you "goof" then, you ideally goof in a way that makes sense.

Maybe that's what you are saying all along, George.

Seeing the main stream of Uechi practice these drills, and I've been unable to find few examples of the next level....I'd sugest any video that covers this might be a hot seller

I'd buy one at any rate!

More and more I get to thinking about these requests, Laird. And more and more, I see a bit of a possible let-down if it was done.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with J.D. Morenski (a.k.a. "Dr. X") about music. J.D. is a multi-talented guy (Uechi black belt, neurosurgeon, drummer, prolific writer, caustic comedian) and sees a lot of things others don't. We were talking about music once, and he was incredulous about the idea of someone wanting to copy the way a certain jazz musician played a particular piece. The point of the medium was/is to have a basic structure, but to work freeform within that structure. As soon as you freeze a performance and want to copy it, you no longer are playing jazz.

I see what you want, Laird - to a point. But to a large extent, my teaching with yakusoku kumite is completely freeform. I've got a group of people working on pieces and parts of it. I assess where they are and what they most need to work on. I then dive in at their level and create a lesson using the framework of the kumite. Often it's even a contemporary concept. I'll then use the framework of part of the kumite to let people experience it in a partner format.

What you really want to bottle (write about, tape) is imagination. That's a pretty damn difficult thing to do! We use the vocabulary and grammar of the style to experience contemporary lessons. It takes a good teacher to do that. And everyone is drawing from some reference frame of solo or partner routines when doing this. It's a never-ending, iterative process.

And finally...

Laird and Rick

Thanks for your thoughtful, measured posts. The more we get to know each other, the more I find we see where the other is coming from.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

One more thing...

i find it hard to break the "waiting for next attack" mode, often with a burning temptation to start the "next" defense, in myself or others.

Good point, Ian. This is a major criticism of the way many people do this.

I have a cure, and my students know I employ it often. When I see someone starting the next defense before I've thrown the attack, I throw a different attack - preferably where they have now left an opening with their defense to the presumed attack.

This is another "dot point" that you can add to Greg's list. Once people know the sequences and we can START learning, they know I will do this. And we ALL should be at this level.

Elements of this are supposed to be real. You're supposed to be paying attention to your partner, and responding to THEM rather than fighting the sequence.

* When they leave an opening because they are blocking the next attack before it's done, hit the opening they create. Can you do that without thinking? With perfect flow? That then tells YOU how far you've come along.

* When they look down at the floor in-between sets, attack them - even if THEY are the one who is supposed to attack next. Same thing if they drop their hands or otherwise lose their "zanshin."

* When someone first chambers before starting an attack sequence, attack them. This is particularly true if they chamber, move forwards, and then attack. I highly recommend the nose; it's usually begging to be hit.

This then addresses a common problem of people getting hit in the face a lot when they spar on black belt tests. There's a reason for that. You will do as you practice. The end depends on the beginning. Attack the problem early - and literally.

My personal take is that "H" is the key thing to do, especially in the context of a nonscripted attack.

"H" would be the following.

H. Tori may try to interrupt uke and counterattack before what is traditionally the last attack in that sequence.

I agree, Ian.

And this gets to another point about these kumite. As I see them and teach them, EVERY uke response to the tori is an opportunity to end it all - if you do it right. I show these opportunities to students as I teach the kumite sequences, and we'll often "sidebar" the point to a single one-step where we work on a great, in-your-face Uechi interpretation of the move.

What I see the sequences often showing is a series of "fits." This is like what you often do in judo practice where you do 50 shoulder throw "fits" without the shoulder throw. It's just giving you lots and lots of time doing the critical part of the move. Without that repetition, you end up being banged up a lot before actually getting a chance to get good at these quick, devastating moves.

So yes... Every once in a while just end one of these sequences halfway through. Do it when your partner least expects it. If you "get it" then it should be proof that it works. After all, your partner isn't going to "cooperate" because they don't know what the heck you are about to do.

And if it doesn't work, well then you don't "get it" after all. And failure is a great teacher.

- Bill

[gmattson]

Re the "flow": I attempted to say that two people may be moving together, but that "Ain't the flow baby"!

You don't start to appreciate the movements or the "flow" until after you've done them for awhile. Think about arm rubbing/pounding (kotikiti). Watch two white/green and some brown belts doing it, then two student (of any rank) who have the movements down... you can't trick them... you can't hit them... you can't "unbalance" them.

Now we're talking about "flow" that I was referring to in "dan kumite".

[IJ]

Agreed, Bill... I learned superfast that I was leading with the nose when the dojo norm was to gently remind whenever one was open. This included:

--leading with your nose, knowing the opponent "must" retreat on cue
--dropping guard before you bow (do you remember that student who was ceremonially "finished" with one technique by a by michael johnson (i think?!) around '93-94 at one of my tests at the old gym in Richmond, only to rise up (perhaps rudely) spin, and elbow his senior in the face? There was a short discussion of assuming your foe is finished at that point)
--starting absurdly close at a range when a formal wauke is near impossible to pull off and instead you'd be trying to hit first, roll off attacks like in boxing, and finsih people off as fast as possible.

You can PO people pretty fast gently tapping their cheek to remind them of their deficiency. BUT I found it very helpful and appreciated it and if you lay the ground rules you're in good shape.

[gmattson]

starting absurdly close at a range when a formal wauke is near impossible to pull off and instead you'd be trying to hit first, roll off attacks like in boxing, and finsih people off as fast as possible.

This caught my attention. Many practitioners believe you actually use the wauke "for real" the same way you practice it in kata. Actually, I believe you only use that part of the block, needed for the technique. Your arm is guided by radar-like accuracy, intercepting and diverting the incoming attack. It may only look like a wrist movement or a forearm movement. Properly executed, those radar-guided moves all head towards the center-line of your opponent. . . which allow all kinds of counters and attacks.

A favorite subject of mine and one I find is most misunderstood as I visit dojo.

[Greg]

All,

Thanks for the kind comments. First off, I've copied the text of the article below - I think I put the reference numbers back in at the right place - the notes are at the end.

A couple of brief comments below – just got back into town recently and I’m due somewhere.

Laird - I agree it's easier to conceptualize this stuff when seen - I'm definitely more of a "visual" learner myself. Now if you can just find me someone a little prettier than me to be in a video, I'd be happy to direct it Seriously though, I agree it's a good idea. If I can make it to summer camp this year, maybe we can borrow someone's vid cam and accomplish this. Also, I don’t believe I said anything about it being impossible to end up with good results training towards self-defense if you don’t use yakusoku kumite – there are many different roads to this goal. What I did say, is that these drills can be useful if adapted, and can be unhelpful if used in the limited ways they are often practiced.

Chewy - I agree that the count can be eliminated earlier after folks have learned the kumite thoroughly. The only reason I use a count after that point is to slow them down enough so that I can pinpoint a problem I see. In terms of when to begin introducing this stuff, I believe it depends on the student. One of the reasons I presented this using kyu kumite is that I can introduce some of these concepts to a white belt, others to a green belt, etc. At the same time, this student may be learning or practicing the seite ("standard") version of Dan Kumite. The important thing for me is to monitor my students to make sure that they aren't being entirely overwhelmed and end up getting hurt, whether because they are forgetting a sequence or their uke waza aren't up to snuff.

Bill – I believe I’ve got the terms uke/tori correct, but it’s possible I’m mistaken (there’s a footnote about this below)

More soon,

Greg

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Uechi-Ryu Yakusoku Kumite As A Self Defense Training Progression

The yakusoku [1] kumite of Uechi-Ryu, Kyu Kumite and Dan Kumite, were developed with the goal of training students in such essential skills as ma'ai, tai sabaki, hyoshi and uke waza (distancing, body movement, timing and reception techniques [2] respectively).

In recent years, these drills have been increasingly criticized by some proponents of “realistic training" as being stilted and worthless for developing an efficacious skill set for self defense. This point is well taken, especially in regard to those uechika who continue to practice these sets in precisely the way they initially learned them: as halting, staccato movements with a uniform pacing throughout. This error is compounded by those yudansha [3] who practice both kumite at what they feel to be black-belt level by simply increasing the speed and/or force of the movements while retaining the same training methodology they used as white belts. The problem with this approach is the possibility that these individuals are fooling themselves (and in some cases their students) into believing that by practicing this way they are coming closer to reality and therefore better preparing themselves for “street self-defense.”

This raises the question: if there are so many dojo utilizing these training methods in arguably backward and counterproductive ways, why not eliminate these drills entirely? In fact, many dojo have done just that, most frequently advocating substitution by jiyu kumite [4] as a method of teaching the same skills that Dan Kumite and Kyu Kumite claim to teach. The benefits and drawbacks of jiyu kumite have been much debated elsewhere and I will not discuss them here, except to point out that it is often extraordinarily difficult to address specific training goals utilizing jiyu kumite. Many dojo recognize this and will add short drills designed to teach techniques or inculcate principles which later can be employed in sparring, or in self defense situations. Though they may differ markedly from Kyu Kumite as practiced in that same dojo, these mini-drills are frequently not much different in composition from sequences in the yakusoku kumite. In short, I would argue that the reasons for continuing to practice yakusoku kumite are twofold: first, if properly utilized, they can in fact serve as valuable training tools; second, they are familiar in some form to Uechi students everywhere, and can thus form a common “language” which allows students from different dojo to train together.

Some of the best models of alternative training methodology for yakusoku kumite can be found in the Filipino martial arts. Due to a variety of cultural and economic factors, these martial arts are, on the whole, generations closer to the reality of fighting than are the Chinese/Japanese arts on which Uechi-Ryu is based. In the traditional Filipino arts, one needs only to look back a generation or so to find an instructor who was involved in challenge matches where victory and defeat were demonstrably clear. [5] Leaving aside any moral implications of these practices, the pragmatic result was a culling of those techniques and training that left an escrimador the loser. It is therefore instructive to look at these training methodologies when reality-focused training is a primary goal. Like yakusoku kumite, the attacks and defenses are prearranged and well known to both students. A common example of this is sumbrada sometimes termed a “rolling pattern,” some version of which is utilized in many Filipino styles, notably Cabales’s Serrada Escrima. The Filipino model yields good results because the pattern is utilized as part of a training progression rather than remaining a static exercise. Any successful training progression must help develop the necessary basic tools in a beginner and then allow the more advanced student to bridge the gap between drill and reality. In contrast to the “traditional” advanced way of practicing Dan Kumite and Kyu Kumite – moving faster and more forcefully without changing anything else – the advantage of the Filipino model is the development of considerable fluidity (readily apparent to anyone who has seen skilled escrimadors “playing”) while training within a set pattern. Nevertheless, there are also students of the Filipino arts who are tremendously fast and strong when they “roll,” but who will be hit consistently when faced with an opponent who departs from the pattern. If a student skips too many steps in his/her mad dash on the road to reality in any martial arts practice, the building blocks are weak and will not hold up under the barrage of even a moderately skilled opponent determined to inflict damage. At the same time, if one keeps hammering away at the same basic drills ad infinitum without adapting them to meet more advanced training needs, one merely becomes an accomplished beginner regardless of what rank one holds. [6]

As long as the concepts discussed above remain paramount, any prearranged drill (e.g. Dan Kumite, or the various Yakusoku Kumite of other Uechi organizations) can become the foundation for a successful training progression. The following example using Kyu Kumite is representative of the program I use with my students. The steps below are arranged in roughly the order in which I introduce them, but can also be mixed and matched to work on the development and/or sharpening of specific skills. In each step, changes introduced in previous iterations can be retained while incorporating new aspects into the drill, or students can return to the more traditional version with only the newest variable added. Initially, of course, students start off simply learning the basic sequences and performing them in typical “white belt” Kyu Kumite fashion: attacks aimed at non vital targets (e.g. sternum) for safety; one move per count; slow unfocused attacks. As students demonstrate basic competence, speed and focus of attacks should be increased, though attacks are still delivered singly with a count for each attack. Students should be encouraged even at this level to practice in a fairly realistic fashion within the confines of the basic sequences and strikes should land if the defense (i.e., ma'ai, tai sabaki and uke waza) is not sound. After students have achieved this basic level of competence in the drill, any of the variations enumerated below can begin to be added:

A. Uke (attacker) [7] should now direct attacks at more vital targets such as face, solar plexus, and groin.[8] Returning to non-vital targets for a brief time as each new segment of the training progression is added may be advisable for safety.
B. Same as A, but now uke launches attacks at variable times after the count. Attention should be paid to ensure tori isn't anticipating the attack by moving or blocking early. Uke should be discouraged from making a game of this segment by “faking” the attack.
C. An entire sequence (e.g. the first half of #1) is performed in one direction after each count; uke performs all attacks, and then becomes tori on the next count.
D. Same as C, but uke should attempt to attack fluidly with no breaks in the attack other than those forced by tori (e.g. when tori has trapped uke’s side kick in #4). At this point, it will be necessary for tori to adapt traditional uke waza and tai sabaki toward “what works.” Also by this stage uke's punches should be launched from sanchin kamae with no chambering, and should return to sanchin immediately after full extension. [9]
E. Tori adds a takedown or restraining technique at the end of each sequence.
F. No count. [10] It may be advisable to reintroduce a count as new aspects are introduced to the drill to allow controlled learning.
G. No count and should be performed with one partner as uke all the way through (i.e. #1 through #5), with the goal of “chaining” together all the attacks in one direction. Some sequences may need to be altered slightly to accomplish this.
H. Tori may try to interrupt uke and counterattack before what is traditionally the last attack in that sequence. [11]
I. As in H, but after tori successfully interrupts the attack, s/he immediately begins attacking with another one of the sequences (thus becoming uke).
J. Sequences performed singly but uke may attack with any sequence s/he chooses.
K. Tori starts in sanchin kamae, uke starts the attack from a neutral stance with hands at his/her sides.
L. Both uke and tori start in a neutral stance with hands at sides.
M. Uke may “break the pattern” for one move at a time, adding one attack drawn from elsewhere in the drill but should then complete the sequence that s/he initially began.
N. Uke can begin with one sequence and end with another.
O. Uke may attack with a random mix of 2-3 techniques – all of which should be from Kyu Kumite.
P. Uke may change the attacks in the kumite to more “realistic” ones. Examples could include hook punches instead of straight punches in #1, varying the angle of attack for the club attack in #4, substituting a low round kick in #5, etc. This will necessitate tori changing some of the uke waza, some of which will not work for specific attack variations.
Q. Two or more attackers (as in kanshiwa bunkai), each of whom attacks with a different sequence. Of primary importance is that tori remain aware of all of the attackers. To that end, s/he may need to alter the tai sabaki or ma’ai, and should ideally try to use the uke against one another.

Although the various aspects of the drills above can be introduced in a different order depending on the needs of particular students, the direction of the training progression should proceed in a way that takes into consideration both safety and skill development. To this end it is useful to balance the concepts of risk and predictability as aspects of the progression are introduced. As students progress in their training, either risk can be increased or predictability can be reduced, but care should be taken not to change both parameters at once.

The concept of maintaining correct structure [12] when in the role of tori is crucial to this entire process. One should not make the mistake of interpreting this as an injunction to perform these drills as if they were kata, but rather to ensure that the techniques within the drill are being performed correctly regardless of which thematic aspect of the drill is being emphasized at the moment. Although the execution of the technique may not appear smooth or pretty, especially when uke is throwing multiple attacks in quick succession, the true test is one of efficacy. For example, assuming that the attacks are being performed honestly – i.e. with the intent of landing the strike – it should be rapidly apparent whether or not the uke waza has been performed correctly.

I have attempted to outline above what I consider to be the essential elements of any yakusoku drill which has self defense skill optimization as its goal. Given the limitations of the print medium, some of this may not be as clear as I would like. Please feel free to contact me with questions or comments.

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1 The Japanese term "yakusoku" literally means “promise” and is used to refer to drills in which the attacks and defenses are known to both partners. The drills "Dan Kumite" and "Kyu Kumite" are capitalized as they are proper names for specific drills. The term "yakusoku kumite" used in this article refers to the general terminology and not to the specific drill called "Yakusoku Kumite" that has been introduced into the curriculum of some Uechi-Ryu organizations in the past few years.
2 "Uke" is often inadequately translated as "block." In fact, uke waza encompass the range of karate techniques performed to receive an attack, and can run the gamut from retreating out of range to jamming the attack.
3 Those who have attained black belt ranks. Those below black belt are collectively referred to as mudansha.
4 Typically translated as "free sparring."
5 The tradition of challenge matches in Filipino martial arts has a long history in many ways similar to that of challenge matches in Chinese and Japanese arts. However since Filipino arts frequently utilized bladed weapons in these matches, it was not unusual for one of the combatants to be maimed or killed rather than simply having his ability or art discredited.
6 Helping the student to find the correct balance between these two extremes is in large part the definition of the role of the dojo sensei. Of course s/he must be familiar with the student and know where on this continuum that student needs work in order to achieve this goal.
7 Although this terminology may become confusing since both tori and uke may utilize uke waza in the course of a given yakusoku kumite – e.g. Dan Kumite sequences where each partners both attack and defend at various points – “uke” is the term used to denote the initial attacker and is derived from the idea that s/he is the one who receives (hence the designation) the counterattack. In contrast, “tori” is the one who grasps or seizes the initiative from uke to launch the counter.
8 I would strongly recommend use of protective equipment for most of these variations, certainly for those targeting vital areas. This allows uke to feel comfortable attacking with intent, and tori to defend against more realistic attacks.
9 It is extremely counterproductive when uke attacks in what is a clearly unrealistic manner designed solely to "win" within the confines of the drill, and students should be monitored to prevent this tendency. One of the best examples of this is when uke punches with a completely rigid arm leaving the punch extended and attempts to prevent tori from moving it. Those uke that play this "game" will often then smugly point out to tori that his/her defense was inadequate, noting that the punch is still directed on target...
10 The sensei should closely observe uke's attacks at this stage. Attacks should flow smoothly from one to the next, but as in kata, different techniques take different amounts of time to effect – thus the attack will have a varied rhythm if performed properly.
11 With this and any of the subsequent additions, students should be reminded that in order for a given sequence to remain unpredictable, and therefore a useful training device, it should be performed with a good deal of variation. In this case, for example, tori should not always interrupt uke's attack nor should tori habitually interrupt the attack at the same point.
12 A classic example of the term structure as used here would be the block for the “club attack” in #4. If the structure is correct, the blocking arm will not collapse and the attack should not land.

[Bill Glasheen]

Greg

I got what you wrote.

7 Although this terminology may become confusing since both tori and uke may utilize uke waza in the course of a given yakusoku kumite – e.g. Dan Kumite sequences where each partners both attack and defend at various points – “uke” is the term used to denote the initial attacker and is derived from the idea that s/he is the one who receives (hence the designation) the counterattack. In contrast, “tori” is the one who grasps or seizes the initiative from uke to launch the counter.

To me, your writing seems like a double negative.

This is how I understand it. I would have written it this way.

7 Although this terminology may become confusing since both tori and uke may utilize uke waza in the course of a given yakusoku kumite – e.g. Dan Kumite sequences where each partners both attack and defend at various points – “uke” is the term used to denote the initial defender and is derived from the idea that s/he is the one who receives (hence the designation) the attack. In contrast, “tori” is the one who grasps or seizes the initiative from uke to launch the attack.

What say you (or others)?

- Bill

[Stryke]

If the roles reverse then the uke tori relationship also changes .

[Bill Glasheen]

So whoever is giving is tori, and whoever is receiving is uke. Is that what you mean?

That can get pretty damn confusing with simultaneous block/attack or preemptive attacking.

- Bill

[Stryke]

It`s only as difficult as you want to make it , this is a prime example of trying to use a foreign language to express something .

nothing wrong with the terms giver/receiver attacker defender etc we understand them without becoming confused , same with Uke Tori if you understand them .

I agree it can get pretty confusing , english works a lot better sometimes

Just want to note I think the articles good and look forward to any footage that may evolve

[IJ]

GEM: agreed... people try so hard to do their wauke (their karate) that they forget that its supposed to be functional. I think that even the applied, realistic wauke is hard to pull off in close quarters, not that i've been in too many close quarters brawls, but.... Wauke generally means you're on the outside of the punch, and if its close quarters that's hard to do, near impossible if there's any hook to the attack. Prefer the sliding block from kyu kumite #2 instead there but even that is hard to execute. In a fight I'd find myself protecting my noodle, using sanchin, conditioning, and body motion more than any discrete block to protect my body, and focusing on offense anyway.

I also just have a visceral feeling that something is wrong when I'm asked to wait for kumite to start in close quarters. In a real conflict, I'd either be headed out, or in--and fast. Don't want to give anyone first shot standing there in boxing range.