9th kata

[Glenn]

At one time supposedly it was not uncommon for expert martial artists to train in only one kata, they focused on perfecting it and learning it inside and out. I can see focusing on fewer techniques helping with making them more engrained and automatic. As has been discussed in other threads, learning too many can just cause confusion and make you have to think too much when you actually need to use your training under stress.

I think the bridging kata were added for two reasons:
1. As a training tool as Bill has described above quite well.

2. For image reasons. You had other styles creating kata, and styles like Shotokan where Funakoshi had compiled a variety of kata from the general Okinawan styles of Shuri-te (his original style), Naha-te, and Tomari-te. This compiling and creating in the early 20th century resulted in karate styles with sizable syllabi, while Uechi retained only 3 kata. At a time when actual fights between karate-ka could less be used to decide style effectiveness, a style had to be seen as offering as much as other styles in order to attract students, and bulking up the syllabus is always an effective way to attract students.

[Glenn]

What about the possibility that the "big three" were not the only forms in Pangainoon gung fu? I don't want to be blasphemous here, but it could very well be that Kanbun learned 3 forms out of pool of many more. He wes, after all, a foreigner learning a Chinese art, and the Chinese weren't known to be good sharers.

Not blasphemous at all from my perspective. But regardless of what or how many forms may have been in what we refer to as "Pangainoon", more relevant is what forms did Kanbun's teacher Shushiwa know? If the research is correct and Shushiwa was Zhou Zi He (Chou Tzu-ho), Zhou reportedly had at least 3 teachers: Zhou Bei ("Southern Shaolin Fist"), He Xi Di ("Iron Fist"), and Ko Sai Tei ("Southern Shaolin Fist"). So presumably Zhou learned a variety of forms from these three.

However there is also the possibility that Zhou was passing along forms he himself had created, or modified from the ones he learned. At that time it certainly was not unusual for experts to take the breadth of what they had learned, combine it with the depth of their experiences, and create from all this a few of their own personal forms...which they then passed along.

My take is that martial arts training was certainly a lot less structured and not set in stone then, particularly in China but also to an extent in Okinawa....more personal adaptation and expression, less style preservation.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good posts, Glenn!

Some general thoughts...

I can see how more material may bridge that , but I`d prefer more understanding , rather than more co-ordination and memorisation .

Excellent point, Marcus. I think we all would.

And yet... In a way, the bridge kata partially get you there.

I can remember once an analogy being used on these forums about trying to copy a jazz musician's rendition of a musical piece. To a jazz musician, this is preposterous. And yet... The problem with "The Big Three" is that most folks don't know the difference between a "story" and a "reference book." For example, is there anything sacred about the fact that "paludal" comes after "paltry" in my American Heritage Dictionary? Of course not - except to the extent that the alphabetizing helps me find the word in the book.

Many folks view our kata more like stories - the way many kata on Okinawa are compiled. But the more you study The Big Three - and then study other arts that work with the same principles - the more you can see what is sacred and what isn't. In a way, jumbling the sequences around in the bridge kata shows us what matters (in terms of sequence) and what doesn't.

As for more material, well... The truth is that some people pick forms up quickly, and some don't. I have people who are easy to teach, and others who I wonder if I'll EVER get them through certain kobudo forms. If you've got a great memory for sequences the way an actor on SNL or a series can pick lines up quickly, well great. But if you don't, well I guess I feel your pain. Then the method can indeed get in the way of the learning.

I can see focusing on fewer techniques helping with making them more engrained and automatic. As has been discussed in other threads, learning too many can just cause confusion and make you have to think too much when you actually need to use your training under stress.

Yes and no... Again, it all depends upon how you approach the material.

If you understand your threat and your threat is pretty consistent and well-defined, well then you want the minimalist, KISS approach. LEOs or soldiers on a raid generally plan something simple and practice it over and over and over. They have maybe one "Plan B" should stuff come down wrong. But for the Average Joe wanting to prepare for unknown threats in an otherwise normal world, it's often difficult to characterize the threat. Therefore a shotgun approach that allows the student to see patterns rather than specifics is very helpful. Ideally with good material and a good teacher, you have folks learning to respond unconsciously to the actual threat, and not to the threat as they believe it to be. It takes longer to do that, but in my opinion it's the better approach with the greatest chance of success.

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

A video clip of the new Kata would be great – anyone out there have one?

Dana – did anyone tape the performance of the Kata?

I can host it on my web site if needed.

[Stryke]

As for more material, well... The truth is that some people pick forms up quickly, and some don't. I have people who are easy to teach, and others who I wonder if I'll EVER get them through certain kobudo forms. If you've got a great memory for sequences the way an actor on SNL or a series can pick lines up quickly, well great. But if you don't, well I guess I feel your pain. Then the method can indeed get in the way of the learning.

I think it`s more complicated than that .

though I agree in part , a huge part must be the more is better mentality .



.

[MikeK]

As for more material, well... The truth is that some people pick forms up quickly, and some don't. I have people who are easy to teach, and others who I wonder if I'll EVER get them through certain kobudo forms. If you've got a great memory for sequences the way an actor on SNL or a series can pick lines up quickly, well great. But if you don't, well I guess I feel your pain. Then the method can indeed get in the way of the learning.

Bill,
Then what do you do as an instructor? If someone doesn't have the kata gene do you keep at it or do you look for another method to teach them?

[Dana Sheets]

Yes - the entire festival was taped and put onto DVD for us.

Lemme see what I can do.

-Dana

[Dana Sheets]

Machita Sensei is a woman of great courage. She learned this kata specifically for the demonstration. She is the first woman to open an all-woman Uechi dojo in Okinawa. She is a Godan in Uechi-Ryu and a student of Mr. Takamiyagi.

She is kind and warm and was absolutely welcoming of our tour and very supportive of women training in Uechi-Ryu. I was very honored to meet her.

This performance was in April of 2004. I do not know if this is the "final" version of the form or if revisions have been made since that time.

-Dana

Copy and past the full line of the address below into your browser. For some reason the board software cuts off the link at the asterix.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/414685872419 ... *danawoman

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill,
Then what do you do as an instructor? If someone doesn't have the kata gene do you keep at it or do you look for another method to teach them?

Yes!

I deal with "learning disabled" people all the time. I have perfectly decent and smart people who take orders of magnitude longer to learn things. I never take it personally, and encourage the students not to either. I take it as a challenge on my part to learn how to get in their brains and figure out what will make them better learners.

The process itself feeds the process. I used to have a teacher who was a clever sonovabitch. He would show us something once. Then we would try to do it. If for some reason we couldn't get it, we'd ask him if he could show it again. Usually that meant he pulled the shinai out and (quite literally) beat on us a few times. Then he'd show us once more. He'd follow up with "Next time, I bring out my real sword!"



Actually... As ridiculous as this man could be (and yes, that was abusive...) this fellow had a bit of genius to him. First, he kept us all in an elevated sympathetic state for much of the learning time. That serves you well when you actually face a threat and experience the survival stress response. And second... It's amazing how quickly you can learn how to learn when motivated, or if you believe it to be possible.

I see the process of learning forms as an intrinsically good thing, like picking up a musical instrument or foreign language later in your life. It builds synapses. It makes you smarter. It keeps your brain young.

That being said...

I also have students - such as my son - where I know they may not want "the standard fare" but can benifit from martial training in perhaps their baseball or their high school wrestling. So I might choose for instance to drag number 1 son in on a Saturday (protesting all the way) and give him something to do that we both know will make him a better human. I've also exchanged information with certain individuals (such as an advanced martial artist) outside the normal curriculum. And lately for instance I allow Rich in class to go his own way and do his own thing, even though he has chosen for now not to advance in Uechi for a while. It floats his boat and we benefit from his excursions into the MCMAP and firearms training.

The process isn't sacred. It's there to achieve an end. I believe in the process, but I don't take it as religion.

- Bill

[nosib]

OK, I'll go first.....uh! that kata inhaled major wind!
Ok class,for your next assignment you are to create a new kata. Five green belts put their heads together. Jimmy " I know
let's use these 3 moves from Goju and put them here".
Bobby " cool!then we can put in some Shorin Ryu moves between those and the Uechi ones". Sara " yea guys! and let's
make it really different and go in all kind of angle directions".
Juan " yea,and unlike most of the rest of our kata,let's make this one akward and unflowing". "Sweeeeeeettt"

Really! tell me that wasn't something put together by a bunch of 9th & 10th dans! Hojo Undo in kata form!
No imagination,just a mishmash conglomeration of borrowed techniques frosted with some Uechi...................

[Stryke]

At least they stole from everybody ....


personally It doesnt excite me , but of course the extra moves are familiar to me , And I was looking for more Uechi stuff .

some of those moves seem contrary to what I feel Is unique about uechi movement , and the feel/fluidity of the original uechi forms .

However the list of contributers have a damn site better right to say whats Uechi and what isnt than I

Still need to geta copy of Bills Superenpai some day , from memory I liked it more except a few parts ...

Oh Yeah and I take umbrage at the inserting generic okinawan karate

the only people making certain moves generic are the small ryu , copying like this .

Bill I`m sure could tell you which extra moves are from which base style .

[Stryke]

Oh yeah Nosib was right

I deal with "learning disabled" people all the time. I have perfectly decent and smart people who take orders of magnitude longer to learn things. I never take it personally, and encourage the students not to either. I take it as a challenge on my part to learn how to get in their brains and figure out what will make them better learners.

I hope your not equating learning styles with learning dysfunction Bill

I can memorise kata fairly quickly , but only because Ive learnt a few now .

I find it generally difficult to learn patterns , mainly because they bore me senseless without context .

I can get the moves , but the pattern takes longer .

I learn in more tactile sense , so kata is well

But I also am visual and can replicate moves well enough .

But patterns ... sequences ... ugg

only when Ive comprehended the transitions can I truly perform a kata , the transitions are easy to memorise , the movements .

static positions ... forget about it .

It just feels artificial and I have to force myself .

I tend to think however folks that take longer , tend to really have it when they get there , and can use it . It becomes somehow more owned because of the effort .

Ive seen some very slow learners , acheive excellent standards , and while often a little different , it`s usually very solid . Unlike some naturals Ive seen

[Dana Sheets]

Any kata is hojo undo in kata form isn't it? That's bascially the definition of kata.

All kata are a compilation of little individual principles (hsing/postures) stuck together by someone at some point. The older kata have had many years for folks to get down to business and work out the finer points and create flow where none may have existed before.

How many Uechi folk do you know hate to stop dead in the middle of Sanseiryu just to stand there in Sanchin for a second? Yet there are some folks who make this look meaninful and others who can't. To this day I feel that Konchin kata is the angry step-child of Uechi-ryu. That form makes absolutely no sense to me at all. However other people are able to do wonderful things with that kata.

I mean the first time non-martial arts folks see Sanchin they almost always laugh out loud. They don't know what they're looking at.

So I would strongly urge folks to look at this kata with more curiosity than criticism at this point. Wait until you've seen other people do it. Wait until you've had a chance to have one of the creators explain the principles they intended to convey in the form. With that information you can make a judgement based on whether or not the form achieved the goals they intended for it rather than the goals we suppose.

[benzocaine]

Thanks Dana for sharing that clip.

It would definitely be great to see some other folks doing it, and seeing a bunkai to alot of that stuff would even be greater

Shohei's yakasuka kumite has some good stuff in it. Don't ask me to recite the whole thing, but there are some good leg blocks, and a sweet arm break if I remember right.

[David Hayward]

I have practiced this kata. In 1997 when I visited Okinawa, the kata was in its final stages of the first cut. At the time, patterns were being marked out on the floor and there were many discussions amongst the afore mentioned masters (although Yonamenie sensei was not involved at the time). I was informed that a committee had been formed and they had consulted with other styles to incorporate relevant techniques that would further enhance those techniques already within the Uechi style. The idea was to further develop the style. It was interesting to watch the development and the different ideas from the different masters. In particular I felt that Takara sensei was subtley influencing the group to make the newer techniques more "Uechi -like". I returned to Okinawa in 2004 (after Dana's visit) and trained with Sensei Takara. A number of the techniques had changed and the Kata was much more like a Uechi-ryu kata than the previous version.
Does the Kata achieve what it sets out to achieve? I keep an open mind. However regardless of opinions it is healthy to try to test, progess and keep the style relevant. Incidently, I believe the name of the kata is actually pronounced Du Ko.