What's this position?

[Glenn]

Some related discussions:
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=14213

This one I've linked toward the end of a discussion, with an image from the Bubishi, and then two posts below are some comments by Bill relating some of the Bubishi poses to the Seisan jumpback:
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... shi#106896

[John Giacoletti]

I would like to see Toyama Sensei's version of this stance.

I do not believe the photo of Master Uechi in the stance is representative of what was taught by Uechi Kanbun Sensei.

I believe the postures of Master Uechi Kanei and Mr. Campbell's representative example of the majority of Uechika practitioners are examples of Master Uechi Kanei's accomodations and modifications of what was taught by Uechi Kanbun's Pangainoon form. The accomodations were made for competative kata competition in the late 1950s.

Guishi Senyu Sensei claims to teach what he was taught by the 1st Generation of Kanbun's students. He learned Seisan from Uehara Sensei and the other major kata from Shinjo Seiyu Sensei.

Guishi Sensei says the upright stance and straight back posture represent "karate show" and not "karate do."

Guishi actually will crouch and curve his back drawing the abdomen in withdrawing so to speak so he is sheltered behind the left leg which is lifted high as shown by Mr. Campbell.

Guishi's right arm is poised for a shuto strke with the elbow brought forward and down in order to protect the ribs on the right side.

He springs out of that stance like a vicious animal striking with the shuto to the neck in mid-air and executing the left hand circle block before landing in the horse stance from which he delivers the elbow to the ribs and the backfist.

I have no reason to doubt that this is what he was taught by Uechi Kanbun's senior students.

Again, I'd like to know Master Toyama's rendition and/or opinion.

[MikeK]

Karate-Show. I like that one John. And thanks for sharing Gushi's method of that posture.

Let's face it, there are a lot of dramatics in karate. In the Shotokan world I've seen people freeze in the crane on rock posture for what seems like an eternity just because it looks good. The application of avoiding taking the full brunt of a mid-level kick and striking the foot of the other guy at the same time gets lost really quick.

[Stryke]

For the gankaku fans

another application ( and my favourite )

the saluting arm is pulling/dragging the outside arm ,

the lower grabs the same shoulder .

the raised leg is then a leg drag/sweep , then you can fold the arm across his chest and take em to the ground with the Uechi elbow sequence , impacting and unbalancing . Or the shotokan version you can strike the extended knee or hip etc etc and backfist them in a cross face action taking them down .

lots of practical variation in the crane positions IMHO .

I see some pushing legs type potential in these moves , in regards to hooking tactily .

and of course theres always just the use as the guard .

I think comparitive analysis of the leg movements in Hangetsu bear out some of the possible sweeping applications , in the other flavours of seisan

you have the leg and arm travelling out in unison from this position , taking the balance and clearing , the same in effect as the jump(step to me ) and the wauke , so in effect a draw and then an explosion , in both sequences .

of course this is more borg than maybe even Bill , and I`d expect no one to see it let alone agree

[MikeK]

Stryke,
The hooking leg is interesting. I thought about the hooking leg in the middle part of Enpi, the part where you do the hammer fist that makes the BG's head head tilt to the right. It doesn't seem to be a guard against a kick at that point.
In general the hooking of the foot is a little odd considering that it slows one down going to the next move. I was shown an application of the hooking foot against a leg kick but I haven't tested it enough to share it.

[Stryke]

Mike thats the other example I thought of throwing out there , I think the lifts too exagerated in the kata but the unison does make that work . the arm being on the inside the leg on the out .

this move and the one in Hangetsu being more to me a knee lift or just a plain old impact knee , but similar crossover i think , also think of the wave kicks in nahanchi similar knee action but a pushing and sweeping jam to once again do some leg pushing manipulation .


I`m thinking grappling when hooking , this to me is just a varaition on sweeps , I dont literally assume these extreme positions . They with speed and movement become more like throws and trips , very quick with the right Kuzushi .

I like this kind of technique , while initially complicated it requires little strength , and your manipulting balance and structure by manipulating the spine , It becomes very gross motor once you have the co-ordination and
synchronous summation of joint movemnt

thanks for bringing up gankaku , I`m not even sure i could get through it anymore ... might have some playing to do

[MikeK]

Gankaku has become a favorite of mine, Enpi and Kanku are the others. To me they just define Shotokan more with all of the dumping and in close moves.

I like Hangetsu but mines a bit of a mutt. I mix a little Uechi sanchin stance into the first part (it just feels correct) and sometimes a lot of Isshinryu Seisan into the last part.

[Stryke]

Mike Gankaku is on the borders of what I still do , I do find it fun .

I like you like Enpi and Kwanku , Enpi was a successfull competition kata for me .

I think Gion has a lot to offer especially in a fit with Uechi

Bassai and Naihanchi and thats about all I train seriously of them for now .

I really dislike Hangetsu , and have replaced it with Uechi Seisan , though it is a usefull form for reference . If i do Hangetsu I do it in Sanchin Dachi

[MikeK]

I love doing Enpi, it's dynamic and even has some nice applications. Any kata that has shots to the bladder is OK in my book. :LOL:
Hangetsu while not my favorite either is a bare bones version of Seisan, at least the Isshinryu version that I know, and that's one of the things I like about it. It has all the major parts of Seisan but it's really stripped down to what I might end up with under pressure. So for me it serves a purpose.

The one major change that I made that made these kata pop for me as far as applications was to do them slow and smooth. I found that without any pauses the transitions went away (the kata became one big transition) and I could finally see many of the applications. You're very right about the extreme positions. I do them when doing the kata, but not when I play with the applications.

[Stryke]

I`m with ya Mike to be fair my dislike is more the performance than the pattern , I dont like the hardness to it thats often taught , and the extreme stance model . However got to love the shokens

I`m with you on fluidity , all my kata is tending towards the shotokai fluid type exspression , at least thats the plan

transitions are apps in my book , it is the transition that is the real value , its maintaining strentgh throughout the fluid movement .

shotokan tai chi

[MikeK]

You're right on the money about being fluid, something that I'm not. I was used to the stop and go version of the kata, and the first time I saw my friend Don do them Shotokai style I did a big "WTF?!". Where were the stops? Where was the snappy gi sleeves and the poses?

I'll always remember when I made a comment about the the gedan barai and the three oi-zuki in Heian Shodan being silly. He had me attack him and did the exact moves out of the kata which hit me like a freight train. My choices were to stay standing, backpeddling and get hit, or fall and get run over. That flow makes the difference.

Seen Chuck Liddel use the same method to knock someone out in a UFC. He flowed really well.

[Glenn]

Anyone know of any online video that shows this flow emphasis well, either Shotokai or other?

[Glenn]

I found this one:
http://budocentral.com/budo-movies/Shot ... _cable.wmv

from a Dartmouth Nova Scotia dojo:
http://kdsnovascotia.ca/

On a different note, some humourous video clips from the same site:
http://budocentral.com/budo-movies/Funny_Stuff.htm

[Stryke]

Heres a good shotokai clip , if anyone is interested I have a series of these , i dont know anywhere hosting them anymore they were pulled down .

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... EA2578A581

For Uechi Flow I dont think you can go past Rick Wilson

http://www.wilsonkarate.com/videos/rick ... r_2005.mpg

[MikeK]

Beginning Shotokai kata

These look to be done at learning or teaching speed, so they don't flow as well as at full speed. Notice that there aren't any pauses and one technique flows right into the next.[/url]