Punishing your child

[Bruise* Lee]

I don't think there is any way to answer the theoretical question with the child jumping on the couch exactly.

All I know is this - I have never had to spank my children. I have 4. I cannot imagine any better children.

My oldest is 15,his typical day is like this : up at 5 AM - goes to a church sponsored group for an hour and a half and he leads scriptures or something, goes to school - carries straight A's and gets college credit for some of his courses while in the 10th grade - was recently chosen for some whizkids game show to represent his school when they film out here soon; then does swimming for 3 hours - won regionals last week and went to state yesterday and came in 3rd. After swimming he and I lift weights and then he does homework. Is an ideal older brother - very generous - he gets no allowance as money is super tight for us right now, but never asks for anything or complains for lack of cell phone, video games, going to movies, etc

My oldest daughter is in grade school, has completed all the math available at her school - takes math at the high school - tutors math at the high school - is in several honors courses

My youngest daughter is in several honors courses as well

I could go into more depth but our children never fight by hitting, they are extremely honest, hardworking, they are not spoiled and expect very little, they are happy with very minimal lives as dad struggles through school at middle age

Discipline for my son usually has taken the form of games of one on one in basketball while I lecture him, my oldest daughters discipline usually consists of a 2 mile walk with me listening and then lecturing, my youngest daughter's discipline consists of throwing dirt clods in the canal while we talk.

Acting out, misbehavior, "sinning" usually comes from unmet needs - they need something , don't get it , and try to satisfy their needs with something "illicit" - talking helps find these needs and discussion and lecture helps put into perspective

I often teach in the public school here while trying to get on with the new career - I teach at the poorer schools, which are largely ethnic - 80% hispanic, 15% black and 5 % white. I have been told I am "OG", which may be true. I have received some kudos for my effect on the kids, helping them to understand what a weakness gangster/thug life is, and the benefits and strength of working hard and living clean. Unmet needs and poor understanding leads to poor behavior.

The kid on the couch when giving you the look of "what are you going to do", may be hoping that what you are going to do is simply show him some respectful affection and attendion. Any attention is better than none - so the misbehaving kids may work to earn a swat on the pants - but they respond much better to respectful attention.

We have never ever ever talked to our children like they were "children". We never baby talked them - as for one thing we never wanted them to think that is how people talked (ooggoooo aggaaa googy). Since they were born we have talked to them as adults about whatever they wanted to talk about : death, sex, drugs, pokemon.

[Bruise* Lee]

I don't think there is any way to answer the theoretical question with the child jumping on the couch exactly.

All I know is this - I have never had to spank my children. I have 4. I cannot imagine any better children.

My oldest is 15,his typical day is like this : up at 5 AM - goes to a church sponsored group for an hour and a half and he leads scriptures or something, goes to school - carries straight A's and gets college credit for some of his courses while in the 10th grade - was recently chosen for some whizkids game show to represent his school when they film out here soon; then does swimming for 3 hours - won regionals last week and went to state yesterday and came in 3rd. After swimming he and I lift weights and then he does homework. Is an ideal older brother - very generous - he gets no allowance as money is super tight for us right now, but never asks for anything or complains for lack of cell phone, video games, going to movies, etc

My oldest daughter is in grade school, has completed all the math available at her school - takes math at the high school - tutors math at the high school - is in several honors courses

My youngest daughter is in several honors courses as well

I could go into more depth but our children never fight by hitting, they are extremely honest, hardworking, they are not spoiled and expect very little, they are happy with very minimal lives as dad struggles through school at middle age

Discipline for my son usually has taken the form of games of one on one in basketball while I lecture him, my oldest daughters discipline usually consists of a 2 mile walk with me listening and then lecturing, my youngest daughter's discipline consists of throwing dirt clods in the canal while we talk.

Acting out, misbehavior, "sinning" usually comes from unmet needs - they need something , don't get it , and try to satisfy their needs with something "illicit" - talking helps find these needs and discussion and lecture helps put into perspective

I often teach in the public school here while trying to get on with the new career - I teach at the poorer schools, which are largely ethnic - 80% hispanic, 15% black and 5 % white. I have been told I am "OG", which may be true. I have received some kudos for my effect on the kids, helping them to understand what a weakness gangster/thug life is, and the benefits and strength of working hard and living clean. Unmet needs and poor understanding leads to poor behavior.

The kid on the couch when giving you the look of "what are you going to do", may be hoping that what you are going to do is simply show him some respectful affection and attention. Any attention is better than none - so the misbehaving kids may work to earn a swat on the pants - but they respond much better to respectful attention.

We have never ever ever talked to our children like they were "children". We never baby talked them - as for one thing we never wanted them to think that is how people talked (ooggoooo aggaaa googy). Since they were born we have talked to them as adults about whatever they wanted to talk about : death, sex, drugs, pokemon.

[benzocaine]

Bruised,

It could possibly be a lack of patience on my part.. but thus so far, a swat on the leg works pretty good.

I do give a warning first. I get down at his level, hold his shoulders, and make him give me eye contact. No matter how much he squirms to look away and continue playing I repeat my message until I am sure he understands.

My wife and I also have a special time out chair. He is such a high strung boy, that I sometimes think this is the best method of punishment. It's a difficult punishment, as I am forced to hold him in the chair... but I suppose it is good, because every time he tries to get up I tell him why he is being punished, and that I want him to understand that he cant climb on the furniture. I also explain I love him and do this because I don't want him to get hurt.

I am a pretty open minded person so I thought it would be great to see other's approaches to guiding their children's behavior. I don't know it all, and never will.

Thanks.

[f.Channell]

Certainly not all children are the same. What works for one may not for another.

Ever see two totally different kids from the same home and parents?

white Bulger on the FBI most wanted list and his brother a University President is but one example.

F.

[Bill Glasheen]

He is such a high strung boy

He is a BOY. Let boys be boys.

Never, ever treat him like a dysfunctional girl.

One of the best things I ever did to/for my older boy (now 14) is to give him a male Rhodesian Ridgeback puppy. He is wild, energetic, fun-loving, strong, and stubborn. The rest of the family fails to understand how he and I bond so well together, and I handle him so well. (I taught martial arts to 18-26 year-olds for 14 years. ) Every time my son gets frustrated with him, I remind him that the dog is just like him. Since I got the dog, I've seen a most amazing maturing process in my older son. His grades have shot up, and his room is now the cleanest in the house.

I'm still working on the epic fights he has with mom. But you know... That's a two-way affair.

Make sure you get a copy of Raising Cain. And whatever you do, DO NOT let anyone diagnosis him as ADD/ADHD, and tell you he needs to take drugs. The best drug you can give a boy is more time to be a boy in-between his study and work times.

BTW, there's a lot of truth to what Fred said. No two kid are alike - even from the same parents.

- Bill

[benzocaine]

Thanks guys.

I just bought a used copy of Raising Cain.

[Bruise* Lee]

Certainly not all children are the same. What works for one may not for another.

Ever see two totally different kids from the same home and parents?

Ever see 2 kids from the same home treated entirely differently? Hmmmm.....why would 2 kids from the same home turn out differently..... ponder ponder. Hey maybe it is because they were treated differently!!!

In the recent DISCOVER magazine they have some interested stuff about identical twins who were seperated and raised in different homes - one example is a boy raised in a nurturing home and the other raised in a rather deprived home that was not nurturing. Their physical appearance alone is startling - a difference in height of about a foot - despite having identical genes that should have caused them to be the same height.

There is an affect of nurture upon nature. The lack of nurture stunted one identical twins growth in all ways - smacking a child is not nurturing - it is the recourse of a parent who wants a quick answer to a situation the parent is not emotionally enriched enough to deal with in a mature , patient and nurturing way. Compare an hour or more of listening (first) and then talking with 2 seconds of "WHACK, there - I have done some parenting - now lets watch 60 minutes in quiet - not another word from YOU".

Whacking a child is poor parenting from a person who does not have the resources to invest the time, attention and energy on their child.

What works for one may not work for the other - but smacking a kid around never works well. The child may turn out to be above average, normal or at least not criminal - but does so inspite of being smacked around - not because of it.

I know few children that thrive the way mine do so far, which so far is proof that smacking a child is not needed.

My fear for the future is the struggles that are simmering between my wife and I and how that may impact our own internal resources to provide the patient parenting we have so far.

Nurturing a child is beneficial, smacking a child is not nurturing in any way shape or form. But many will agree with it , simply because it is their own form of impatient parenting and even when they see the ugliness of it when someone else does it, to complain against it would be to condemn themselves.

I could list a great many stories I know of personally of parents treating one child much more favorably than another - it often makes me wonder if one of the children is illegitimate from an affair that is not mentioned or something. I see children that are treated with less attention, affection and more importantly consistency than the family treats their pets - they are consistent, disciplined and affectionate in dealing with a dogs misbehavior for example (spend time trying to teach the dog not to run out the door) but then turn around and lavish attention on one child but simply smack the other child expecting that child to turn out the same. Its really pretty damn crazy.

[Bill Glasheen]

Being a twin, I know quite a bit about nature vs. nurture. I am part of a database of potential study subjects for Medical College of Virginia twin studies. I've participated in a few - with my twin - and have been made aware of the study results every time. They're pretty good about that, which then encourages us to continue participating.

The short of it is that we are what we are partly by nature and partly by nurture. Only the radical behaviorists believe that nurture is the cause of all behavior. Behavioral therapy is pragmatic therapy, but it has its limits. We also act the way we do because of the DNA we bring to the table. And the reality of mathematical chaos guarantees that there is some predictiable unpredictability within all of us. (You have to understand a little something about nonlinear math to appreciate what I just said... )

Ever had 2 dogs from the same litter that had completely opposite personalities? I've experienced it with a litter of Great Danes. One dog was a handful and always wanted to bolt. The other was absolutely uncomfortable until you had him on a leash, and just wanted to be a (200 pound) lap dog.

I think it's great that some choose not to engage in corporal punishment. On the other hand, my entire Irish Catholic family (8 kids) was the product of corporal punishment both in the home and in the parochial school system. It didn't break any of us, stunt our growth, or cause us to go to prison. Quite the contrary... But I would be taken as bragging if I told you how well all my family members have done in life.

It could just as easily be said that many grow up OK in spite of non-corporal punishment methods. If you knew how bad it was in public school systems these days... Even look at a kid wrong, and the law offices of Dewey, Chetham, and Howe are on your back - AFTER you get fired. It could just as easily be argued that the pendulum has swung way too far on the permissive end. It's the teachers who regularly are assaulted, and they have NO recourse. It makes me glad I'm able to send my kids to private school where the behavior standards are higher and kids are out in a New York second if they don't meet those standards.

I don't claim to have all the answers. But I'm wary of any "one size fits all" formula for child rearing, or any "new, improved" method which allegedly will be better than the way it was done in the past. In the end, our "better" methods will be the ones our kids will swear they will do better at when THEY get to be parents.

- Bill

[Bruise* Lee]

Only the radical behaviorists believe that nurture is the cause of all behavior.

(You have to understand a little something about nonlinear math to appreciate what I just said... )


I would be taken as bragging if I told you how well all my family members have done in life.

"better" methods will be the ones our kids will swear they will do better at when THEY get to be parents.

- Bill

I doubt even radical behavioralists deny that dNA has any impact.

Nice use of smilies.

[chewy]

He is such a high strung boy

He is a BOY. Let boys be boys.
.
.
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Make sure you get a copy of Raising Cain. And whatever you do, DO NOT let anyone diagnosis him as ADD/ADHD, and tell you he needs to take drugs. The best drug you can give a boy is more time to be a boy in-between his study and work times.

BTW, there's a lot of truth to what Fred said. No two kid are alike - even from the same parents.

- Bill

Bill,

My wife thanks you for recommending this book. We just had our first baby in August (Carter) and this book was an eye-opener for her. I haven't gotten all the way through it yet, but a lot of it rings true with me and my memories of childhood. Have you read "part deux" of the book by the same authors?:

"Speaking of Boys: Answers to the Most-Asked Questions About Raising Sons"
http://www.amazon.com/Speaking-Boys-Ans ... F8&s=books

I read this one first. My wife also loved this book.


cheers,

steve

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for the reference, Steve. I'll stop by the bookstore and get it today.

- Bill

[Ted Dinwiddie]

He is a BOY. Let boys be boys.
- Bill

Let kids be kids. They all need the space to be themselves and as their parents we should be providing and managing that space. There are lines of accepted behavior and responsibilities appropriate for the maturity level. And, most important, there are consistent and definite consequences for failure to follow or fulfill. Those consequences depend completely on the personalities and belief systems of the families involved. The whole thing requires attention. I think and feel that the child responds most positively to the presence of caring parents who are watching and guiding and not letting things slide.

[benzocaine]

Bill- "And whatever you do, DO NOT let anyone diagnosis him as ADD/ADHD, and tell you he needs to take drugs. The best drug you can give a boy is more time to be a boy in-between his study and work times. "

No problem there... he is 2 after all

I have to admit though, that there is compelling evidence that ADD isn't a cop out like some folks claim. There have been PET's and MRI's done on ADD folk to show that they are "wired" differently.
Here is one link of many showing some evidence...

http://www.akidjustlikeme.com/id92.htm

[Bruise* Lee]

"When you conquer others by force, they don't really submit; they do so only because they know they are not strong enough. Only when you conquer others by virtue, then can you be sure they submit happily & loyally." _ Mencius

I tink this applies to disciplining children - spank them or intimidate them into compliance and you have done nothing but drive the behavior underground.

Instruct them, be an example of virtue for them - and they will change because their understanding and heart will lead them

[mhosea]

I tink this applies to disciplining children - spank them or intimidate them into compliance and you have done nothing but drive the behavior underground.

This is precisely the reason you see this as a black and white issue and not in a circumspect way. There is a spectrum of punishment and a myriad of ways to apply it. You view ANY sort of "spanking" as abuse because you presume that the child will have exactly the frame of mind that you describe. Having received a lick or two, I can tell you from experience that this isn't always so. You simply can't equivocate the situation of an abused child, beaten at the drop of a hat for little or no reason, and that of child with loving parents who use spanking judiciously as a method of discipline.