For once, i agree with old bush.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bruise

Your pessimistic view of Iraq is not shared by people I know who are over there now. Sadly it is more accurately the political propaganda of a group wishing to see a political change. Meanwhile our proud service members are pissed that the news media gives them no credit for what they have accomplished. But at least they have a sense of humor about it. See Troops Send Kerry a Photo Message Response From Iraq



The only thing good I can say about it is that election day is today and we don't have to listen to the constant drone of "Iraq is a failure" from the "Vote for me!" crowd.

Those servicemen I know who are over there now can tell you that the vast majority of Iraq is peaceful, and appreciates being able to go about their business. The Kurds have been prosperous ever since we started protecting them after Desert Storm, and like us the most. The Shia have mixed feelings, but generally are doing well. Unfortunately it is human nature that bad news travels faster and farther. The ethnic and religious disgreements around Baghdad dominate the news. No reporter wins a Pulitzer by showing "feel good" news about our successes over there.

Iraq has a highly educated population. They understand all of what is going on. The true nature of their feelings about us is more like a "love hate" thing. They want us out - as I would if I was a proud Iraqi - but no, not just yet please. They are proud of their newfound voting rights, but frustrated with the lack of progress of their government. They are getting about the business of living normal lives, and having constantly to worry about what whacko is going to off somebody around the next corner.

It is what it is.

Iraqis as a whole will not "hate" Americans. They are like any other group of highly educated individuals. Their views will range the political spectrum, and they will feel what they feel - as they should.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

Iraqis as a whole will not "hate" Americans. They are like any other group of highly educated individuals. Their views will range the political spectrum, and they will feel what they feel - as they should.

- Bill

Goes with alot of the middle east to actually.

[Bruise* Lee]

. They are getting about the business of living normal lives, and having constantly to worry about what whacko is going to off somebody around the next corner.

Iraqis as a whole will not "hate" Americans. They are like any other group of highly educated individuals. Their views will range the political spectrum, and they will feel what they feel - as they should.

- Bill

Some whacko going off?? - are we talking about American cities or Iraq.

One doctor I know here in town is an Iraqi whose parents still live in Iraq, and he runs one of the premier Alzheimer's research centers in the United States. I remember when the war first started, he would get occassional communications from his parents or his brother that is there. From their educated, highly educated, genius plus educated view points - we did not help them all that much. They are grateful that life is not as crappy at this time as it was in the first days right after our attack however - now they have running water and electricity of course.

Its true, after years of our efforts there - the violence in Iraq is really not worse than that in any large American city - they are certainly being westernized well.

That picture is funny - they certainly seem to favor Bush, and follow his grammar and syntax if not just his rhetoric.

[Bill Glasheen]

That picture is funny - they certainly seem to favor Bush, and follow his grammar and syntax if not just his rhetoric.

It's a shame you would dismiss (or totally not get) their humor so readily in favor of expressing your own political viewpoint.

I'm quick to challenge any person who would so cavalierly (mis)judge the intellect of GW. Did you graduate from Yale undergrad? Can you get into and graduate from Harvard's MBA program? (It's number 1 in the country, BTW) I only know one other person (personally) who has. That would be the late Rad Smith, my first Uechi instructor. He was one of the smarter people I've known in life. Most of the others in that league have been those rare individuals who also have that special spark inside that lands them in places like founders of companies. (I could name a few...)

Spend 8 years getting 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night, have the weight of the world on your shoulders, have your political enemies spewing venom about you, and have cameras taping your every word. I'm sure a good bit of editing could make any of us appear as blathering idiots. And it's not like there isn't a bias out there in the media...

The only good thing I can see coming of this last toxic political season is that Kerry himself is probably feeling empathy for the guy.

- Bill

[mhosea]

The only good thing I can see coming of this last toxic political season is that Kerry himself is probably feeling empathy for the guy.

I've always felt empathy for him on the speech thing. I sometimes used to joke that my brain is connected to my mouth by a 100 baud modem, although it's an old-timer's joke nowadays.

[Bruise* Lee]

I'm quick to challenge any person who would so cavalierly (mis)judge the intellect of GW. Did you graduate from Yale undergrad? Can you get into and graduate from Harvard's MBA program?

Although I am ill at ease discussing the president in a forum that ranges from liberals-in-favor-of-war-with-Iraq (can they really be called liberals?), to conservatives-with-a-strong-pro-gun-stance, to former-US-intelligence-officers : in short a right-wing-hawkish-fully-armed-forum - I have seen enough of silver spoon offspring to realize that many who get into and through Ivy league schools do not do so on their own merits.

The Declaration of Independance and the United States Constitution support the notion of a country in which all men are created equal - the beauty of this brings me to tears at times - the first time a country was founded that I am aware of, in which the leaders were not monarchs who claimed they had divine right to rule based on holy parentage (ex. pharoahs descended from sun gods, emperors of Japan descended from sun goddesses, kings of europe chosen of god etc). My love of the principles of the Consitution is one of the reasons I consider myself strongly patriotic - often hawkish - but never one to condone the waste of a US soldiers life.

Despite my love of the principles of the US Constitution I am keenly aware of the benefits of a prestigious birth in the USA (or as is often the case with "affirmative action" the benefits of a markedly underpriveliged birth). Although the privilege of some births may not be as total as some conspiracy theorists may enjoy ruminating and speculating about (ie. being a Kennedy gives one the ability to rape and murder at will), nonetheless being a Kennedy etc pretty much gaurantees that you won't end up in a state run community college no matter how retarded you might be. All men are not created equal in this country

Your friend may deserve great kudos for their academic Harvard accomplishment, especially if they are not east coast old money or Cabrini green "equal opportunity" female black. For them such achievements mean much less than for those who can relate to Creedance Clearwater's song FORTUNATE ONE : http://www.lyricsfreak.com/c/creedence+ ... 34362.html

[Bruise* Lee]

Spend 8 years getting 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night, have the weight of the world on your shoulders, have your political enemies spewing venom about you, and have cameras taping your every word.

- Bill

I have at times been kind of interested in the Presidents daily schedule. I remember when Pres. George H.W. Bush went on vacation the day that Desert storm started in 1991.

Harry Truman was president during alot of troubled times - Soviets and Turkey and Greece, North Korea attacking South Korea etc. Yet he spent many months in Key West - so much so that it became known as "the little White house". On one extended trip most of his days were spent playing poker. I love these outtakes from his daily itinerary in Key West (one of h is shorter stays) : http://trumanlittlewhitehouse.com/logs/log6.pdf

"The President did not put in his appearance until 9:40 a.m.,
this morning. He came downstairs at that hour and admitted that he had slept until 9:30 a.m. When asked if the 21 gun salute had disturbed him, he remarked that he had heard only the last four guns and had turned over and gone back to sleep. Mr. Connelly stole party honors from the President, however, as he did not arise until later.

At 10:15 a.m., the President left the Little White House and walked to the Enlisted Men’s Beach at the Naval Station. He was accompanied by Mr. Steelman, Mr. Woodward, Admiral Dennison and Mr. Bray. Admiral Leahy joined him there a
short while later. At the beach the members of the party changed to bathing trunks and spent the next hour and thirty minutes swimming and loafing in the sun.

General Vaughan and General Landry returned to the Little White House at 1:45 p.m., in time to join the others at lunch. They brought back a nice catch of 94 ½ pounds -- 13 grouper (the largest a 19 – pounder) and one mackerel, and a most unusual fish story. They contended that their largest grouper took both their lines, one by his mouth and the other line with his tail and that was the way he was reeled in.

This story, together with the news of the President having overslept for three hours, provided Mr. Hassett with two items of “believe it or not” news for his news conference today."

I think overall the President spent something like a quarter of his term in Key West playing cards and relaxing - certainly not 5 years spent getting by on a minimal 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night. And when at the real white house, he has a huge team to brief him, give them his opinion, carry out his decisions that he makes after all the briefing etc. Granted its not a job anyone in their right mind would want in my opinion, but I doubt he has spent 8 years with getting by on only 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night - that sounds more like my life, with spending the last 4 years completing medical school, being the main source of income for the family at the same time, raishing 4 kids .

I am trying to find a copy of his daily intinerary - and would not be surprised if it did not read like Harry Trumans (spent the morning inspecting the decorating changes made in the little white house, hunting, accepting gifts of pineapple)

[Bruise* Lee]

I've always felt empathy for him on the speech thing. .

I too would cede that living the the limelight , knowing that reporters etc are just waiting for you to make the next dumb statement or slip on a crack while carrying your child etc, would be a poor way to live. But President Bush chose to live that way - so its hard to be too sympathetic, although there was probably a strong parental expectation and push forcing him in that direction. I had a friend who struggled through a civil engineering degree to please his dad, who was the dean of civil engineering at a midwest university - only to have his dad comment at his graduation "yeah but just think of all you could have been" - ouch.

I feel much more sorry for the Bush daughters who cannot even party like many college kids because of being dragged into it - or at least could not for a long time, you don't hear anything of them anymore - you have to wonder how much the presidents influence caused newspapers to never ever mention then daughters.

[Bill Glasheen]

I doubt he has spent 8 years with getting by on only 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night - that sounds more like my life, with spending the last 4 years completing medical school, being the main source of income for the family at the same time, raishing 4 kids .

This comment is very telling - complete with the verbal gaffe. It is why I brought it up to you. I figured you would relate.

I did 5 years of 3 to 5 hours of sleep a night. That kind of schedule got me through graduate school (3 of 33 finished the degree program), running a martial arts program of over 100 students, traveling to another city to cross train in 2 other martial arts, and sort of kind of having a relationship (my girlfriends would have something to say about that... ). I have lifelong friends who went through neurosurgery and pediatric surgery programs and also can relate. In short, we can trip over our written and spoken words quite easily, and not be at our very best. But we manage...

I am trying to find a copy of his daily intinerary - and would not be surprised if it did not read like Harry Trumans

I will reserve judgement until after you manage to get those facts.

- Bill

[mhosea]

He did get a reputation for "pacing himself" somehow. The SNL joke about it stuck in my mind. The Bush impersonator says something like

"I'll be on the job for you 24/7. That's 24 hours a week, 7 months a year."

As far as sleeping late goes, I'm all for that, always have been. Most of us are not farmers anymore. I'd rather have a well-rested president for exactly the same reasons as I'd rather have a well-rested ER physician.

[Bill Glasheen]

I have also stated repeatedly that "Mr. Silver Tongue he is not." This morning, conservative commentator George Will put it another way on ABC News' This Week with George Stephanopoulus. "The English language is not his friend."

Some of us are good public speakers, and some are not. Adoph Hitler was a mesmerising public speaker but... I'll take Mr. Gaffe instead, thank you. Now if only he can work on that "nucular" thing...

And besides, all those quirks make it easier and more fun for the late-night comics to impersonate him. Like Slick Willie with his shoken gesture, pursed-lip pose, and one-eyed gaze, those ideosynchracies are both irritating and endearing all at the same time.



- Bill

[Bruise* Lee]

Are we willing to stay 100 years?

Although to many , and in reality to myself, that area just seems like a homogenous group of Muslims. But there is alot of class distinctions I believe. The Sunni were kind of the "ruling class" under Hussein, and the Shi'ites were the "lower class". An uneasy balance, but Hussein kept it in balance none the less. There will ALWAYS be class distinctions.

Now after our interfer.... intervention we uspet the balance...yes? No? The Sunni are no longer the most upper privileged group. Much like southern whites who lost alot of class distinction after the civil war to blacks, and who then started the Ku Klux Klan - there is going to be some internal terrorism of the former elite upon the former lower class Shi'ites. How long did it take us to gain total equality among the races...whats that you say - it hasn't happened yet? Hey we all drink at the same drinking fountains now in the USA.

I dunno - I am betting that its a sort of civil war that is going to go on 100 years - are we willing to do that? Is it worth it? Sure we OUGHT to - since we started the whole civil war thing there - but are we really going to do it - if we are just going to eventually leave them to their own resources, why not cut our losses?

[Bill Glasheen]

These are excellent questions, Bruise. Your facts are a little rough, but you make your point pretty well.

Are we willing to stay 100 years?

In what capacity? Over 60 years after the end of WWII, we still have a strong presence on Okinawa. But then that's a win-win proposition for the most part. We add to their economy, and they provide a launching point for global military reach.

Will Iraq serve as such a base in the future? It's probably not a great idea. Kuwait seems like a better place to put that kind of presence, since they were more than grateful that we extracted Hussein and his sociopaths from their country. Iraq's quite a bit messier.

Will that place be a mess for a while? Probably. It certainly will be no less messy than our own Union was in-between 1776 and 1865.

Although to many , and in reality to myself, that area just seems like a homogenous group of Muslims. But there is alot of class distinctions I believe. The Sunni were kind of the "ruling class" under Hussein, and the Shi'ites were the "lower class". An uneasy balance, but Hussein kept it in balance none the less. There will ALWAYS be class distinctions.

It's actually WAY more complicated than that.

• The Sunnis were a ruling minority in much the same way that whites were a ruling minority in South Africa before things finally settled. The transition there wasn't pretty, BTW... In any case, the Sunnis have political ties to Syria (the Baath party) and to Saudi Arabia (Sunni sects of the Muslim religion). This explains how they were able to rule as a minority for so long.
• The Kurds in the north represent an ethnic group which extends into Turkey and Iran. If they had their way, there would be an independent Kurdistan which would also incorporate land now held by those respective countries. Neither Turkey nor Iran are happy about that prospect. Meanwhile, the Kurdish region has been both stable and prosperous ever since we started protecting them from Saddam's ethnic cleansing way back in the early 1990s. They are quite happy we are around for now, FWIW...
• The Shia are the majority in the country. They have religious - but NOT ethnic - ties to Iran. They are happy we got Uncle Saddam out, but a minority of them would just as soon see us gone so they could set up the same Islamic fascist state (a.k.a. theocracy) that exists today in Iran.

The Ottomans ruled a very large area of the Middle East, but did so by clearly divided areas. WWII broke up the Ottoman Empire, and artificial boundaries were formed in the area that didn't make either religious or ethnic sense. To complicate matters further, oil was discovered, and is not evenly distributed throughout Iraq or the Middle East as a whole. So re-creating the old boundaries isn't an option today.

Yes, it's a mess.

Should we just cut our losses and leave? IMO, that's fine so long as you don't mind another 9/11 in a few years. Al qaeda and their own Wahabism-inspired version of Islam has made it their mission to fight us in Iraq by inflaming these ethnic and religious tensions. No act is too unethical to commit in order to achieve their end of muslim fascist rule throughout the world as well as the destruction of Israel and the U.S.

In short, we need to deal with it.

Now after our interfer.... intervention we uspet the balance...yes? No?

Saddam was NOT a solution, as you suggest. Quite the contrary, he was part of the problem - a problem that myopic US foreign policy and UN actions created. (We could spend days talking about that...) The whole "WMD" talk is just political babblespeak which distracts everyone from the underlying problems that exist in the region. And if we don't find ways to deal with it, there will indeed be WMD issues - on our own soil.

Should we stay in Iraq for 100 years? IMO the question is more relevant than you know. As I see it, as long as there is oil in the Middle East which can fuel a political movement based upon hate of Israel and the West, we will need to deal with it. HOW we deal with it is the only question.

- Bill

[Bruise* Lee]

Saddam was NOT a solution, as you suggest. ........As I see it, as long as there is oil in the Middle East which can fuel a political movement based upon hate of Israel and the West, we will need to deal with it. HOW we deal with it is the only question.

- Bill

I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. Its sometimes hard for me to follow what is happening in that region, and similarly in the old Chzech republic, in part because they don't have names I follow very well : Sunni, Shia etc makes no sense - can't we name them something like the Pistons, the Mavericks etc?

I never suggested Saddam was a solution. As you point out as long as there is "oil" we will have to deal with it. Of course I think you could have just said as long as there is a middle east we will have to deal with it. I am not saying there is any solution, everything that works there only works for a temporary stop gap solution. But as long as there is a stop gap that is working why mess with it?

And that is just the thing - IMO there was not a threat to the USA from Iraq, so why didn't we leave it alone. There was no WMD, and unlike you I don't believe if we cut our losses and ran, I don't think we would as you suggest find them here on our own soil.

Well except for one thing - Bin Ladin, who was the real threat IMO all along, thinks we are a bunch of effiminate pussies who ran from Viet Nam, Korea, Afghanistan etc - and if we leave Iraq he will take it as further evidence that we are indeed pussies. That is the ONLY reason I can see staying. Iraq , I don't feel, was a threat to us prior to 9/11 in terms of WMD - and is not really a threat now in terms of WMD - although there are probably Iraqi's who would just as soon see every American dead.

I think prior to 9/11 Bin Ladin, Al Qaeda was the threat - and I think they are the threat now, in terms of terrorism. I doubt frisking grandma for tweezers at the airport is doing much to stop it, and I don't think our occupation of Iraq is doing much to stop it. Iraq was a threat to itself - Saddam was a threat to his own people - but to us... do you really think he was a threat to us?

You are a bright guy, youmay circulate with many intelligence military and may be privy to something - so seriously, do you think Saddam was a threat to us in terms of world class terrorism, WMD etc? DO you think Iraq is now?

It is our fault the balance was upset in Iraq. Saddam was a bad guy - but that is not our problem, is it? North Korea has a bad guy - are we going to go a thumpin' there too? And then are we going to stick around in both countries until they all love each other and love us, and play baseball and eat apple pie?

Are we in danger from Iraqi's and their brand of Islam - or are we still to fear Al Qaeda? And is Al Qaeda centered in Iraq? [/b]

[mhosea]

And that is just the thing - IMO there was not a threat to the USA from Iraq, so why didn't we leave it alone. There was no WMD, and unlike you I don't believe if we cut our losses and ran, I don't think we would as you suggest find them here on our own soil.

I found the pre-invasion status quo objectionable on humanitarian grounds, but of course things have since deteriorated beyond my imagining at the time.

Be that as it may, the past is the past. Mistakes were made, but I'm afraid I see neither logic nor honor in the view that because it was a mistake to invade Iraq it is therefore not a mistake to leave it immediately. I think we should leave when that action would seem to serve the greater good.