What are advanced techniques in your art of choice?

[Bill Glasheen]

fivedragons makes a good point, regardless of how it reads.

The more I listen to you, the more I begin to believe we think a lot alike.

Let's take another post on this thread...

i have practiced a few arts where for every color belt change there is a new teachnique to learn. so the higher up you go the more techniques you have learned. i have found this method to be empty in the end, if your mind is solely on learning the "next thing". students eventually get deluded and leave. on the other side, in uechi ryu i could say loosely that 90% of the techniques could be memorized with in a year but the depth of understanding and the application continues for years and years.

an example would be the last moves in konshiwa kata. slide in, circle block with left hand, shoken strike with right hand, slide back.

And here's the classic example.

Do you know what? The move was passed on to us. Not only does it exist in its original context (in Sanseiryu, where the entire sequence is done), but a piece of it is shown to us way back in Kanshiwa kata.

There it is, right there in front of us. For years. And years. And years...

And you know what? I would venture to guess that at least 95% of practicing Uechika don't know two of (IMO) the most practical applications of that sequence. And just to get the peanut gallery stirred up... Go to a jiujitsu class where you will learn how to do these two applications.

So IMO... the difference between the beginner and the advanced is how they perceive and execute the exact same techniques and mechanics.

True story... Led Zepplin's Whole lotta love

Way down inside... woman... You need... love.

Shake for me, girl. I wanna be your backdoor man.

When I was a young lad and first heard this song, I thought it was really sweet. This girl loved this man way down deep in her heart. And he wanted to be so comfortable with her that he could just walk in the back door of the house (without knocking) and ask for a cup of sugar or something.

Years later I heard the song again. And for whatever reason, I started to listen to the lyrics. You don't really listen to lyrics much when you're a kid anyhow.

I almost drove off the road!

When the student is ready, the teacher will be there.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

I can remember when karate first came to the U.K.in the early sixties ,but officially it arrived in 1959 at the request of Dr Vernon Bell who had studied in France with sensei Mochizuki , we knew nothing then but we know more now ,in other words there is a advancement ,all of Uechi-ryu is contained in Sanchin ,to see this is a life times work ,you would be advanced .

This uechi concept is very well explained in Gem sensei,s first book "The Way of Karate" 1962 edition I have yet to come across a better explanation of the Sanchin concept as pertain's to just what advanced technique ,or advanced kata ,advanced man truly represents , the three are intertwined in a circle of knowledge that makes common sense ,and if a practioner is not a advanced practioner it gives a intellectual insight thats graspable ,this was grasped by me at a early age ,and its as true now as it was the first time I came across it in intellectull form ,this is one reason I stuck to a three kata format and put a massive work load into SANCHIN .

[fivedragons]

Posted by Jorvik:

"if you take the Chinese as the real guardians of secret knowledge, I can tell you, selfish as it may seem they are quite happy to die and have their knowledge die with them...rather than pass it on to folks they think unworthy..I never used to appreciate that viewpoint but now I totally agree with it."

I don't take the Chinese as the real guardians of secret knowledge, that honor would have to go to the Tibetans and the Indians before them.

If they are quite happy to die with their "secret knowledge", I am quite happy that they do, because if someone tells me that they have something that can benefit the world in some way, and then they don't share it openly, I quickly turn my mind back to things that are important, like how to live my own life the best way I can.

What a crock of absolute horse #####.

Ever see the Wizard of Oz? Remember the little scared guy behind the curtain?

I have completely run out of patience, and I will not spend another second of my life trying to make room in my head for anyone else's stupid mind games. I know all the mind games, and I know who is behind the curtain.

[JimHawkins]

Posted by Jorvik:

"if you take the Chinese as the real guardians of secret knowledge, I can tell you, selfish as it may seem they are quite happy to die and have their knowledge die with them...rather than pass it on to folks they think unworthy..I never used to appreciate that viewpoint but now I totally agree with it."

Agreed, and I've done it...

If folks can't imagine why this would be they ain't got their thinking cap on...

The old masters passed on to each student based on their relationship with that student and how they felt about them...

I don't take the Chinese as the real guardians of secret knowledge, that honor would have to go to the Tibetans and the Indians before them.

Great stuff..

Which Indian style has intimate or any knowledge of CMA that were developed in China over the last millennium and rolled off the line 200 years ago...?

Indeed the wheel was invented long ago but I wouldn't attempt to consult those folks who lived long ago (if you could) when your BMW has a problem.. These kinds of comparisons are just goofy...

If they are quite happy to die with their "secret knowledge", I am quite happy that they do, because if someone tells me that they have something that can benefit the world in some way, and then they don't share it openly

Correct martial training in a given style does not "benefit the world in some way" it hopefully benefits the person receiving it.

If the person asking for it is a butt-hole well....... Guess who ain't getting it..........?

If the person asking for it is a butt-hole with lots of money well....... Guess who's going to get a cheap substitute........?



But all of this stuff misses the point.. It's not about a secret magic bullet..

And the phenomena in question has stared me right in the face... In some cases the info held back can mean making the training and learning (that method) much more efficient.. So much so if it is withheld some folks will never learn the skills. If you think you are going to find what is already scarcely available somewhere else, down the block, or in another style I'm here to tell you--it ain't gonna happen unless you own a plane, lots of money, have lots of time or what you are training is widely available in which case none of this matters.....

First off you have to realize that Chinese inside attached styles exist, they are the last rev of CMA that rolled off the assembly line after the countless styles and systems that came before them .. The range in question--it's been called trap boxing, it's been called other things... I don't care about the labels but I care about the method.. The method or range or style is specialized... If you don't agree here then there is nothing else to talk about. If you don't accept that you can't accept that the method exists and is specialized, nor that some of it could be withheld from students...

What is withheld is not a singular thing.. It could be a form, a technique, but it could also be how one trains known techniques or tools.. It could also be how one applies a known technique or a tool--it can mean the difference of ever making something practical...

Some might say it doesn't matter..

Well then the method doesn't matter either right?

Folks have to come to terms with what matters.. If you think the old arts are simply about punching and kicking then you have completely missed the point of what some of these arts are about.. It's not about simple kicking and punching and no one needs a bunch of forms with dozens or even hundreds of movements in them to learn how to punch or kick.

If you don't accept that a style or system has a unique and useful "picture" to offer you're not going to accept anything else about that picture, style, system or what it offers..

Moreover, when that picture is made into a puzzle and some pieces are missing, those folks who don't see the picture in the first place won't see any less of it when parts of it are missing.

If you think the old methods are irrelevant to modern combat then we don't agree, and there's no point of discussing the nuances of something that doesn't matter in the first place....

[Bill Glasheen]

Moreover, when that picture is made into a puzzle and some pieces are missing, those folks who don't see the picture in the first place won't see any less of it when parts of it are missing.

Here's a good example of what Jim's talking about.

i have practiced a few arts where for every color belt change there is a new teachnique to learn. so the higher up you go the more techniques you have learned. i have found this method to be empty in the end, if your mind is solely on learning the "next thing". students eventually get deluded and leave. on the other side, in uechi ryu i could say loosely that 90% of the techniques could be memorized with in a year but the depth of understanding and the application continues for years and years.

an example would be the last moves in konshiwa kata. slide in, circle block with left hand, shoken strike with right hand, slide back ...

... and place back of right shoken on top of back of left shoken.

Then in Sanseiryu you do either a 180-degree turn (first time you do it), or 45-degree turn (second time you do it) while holding the double-shoken, closed-gate-like posture.

I added these pieces because "the puzzle" makes no bloody sense without them. So often when people view kata, they are looking at one "technique" at a time. When you do that, you often will miss the original intent.

Proceeding...

I have two different application, both of which I believe the original choreographers meant. (It's that pan gai noon nature of the style.) They are too effective and the lay-over of the application on the sequence too snug for them never to have been intended.

Now that I see these applications... Now that I do them and so have the kata as the mental mnemonic, I'm not so sure that any teacher or choreographer "hid" anything from anyone.

Are my applications literal? No. But then my view of Uechi kata (not speaking for other CMA) is that they teach principles and require the user to put together the specifics. There is an inherent principle of parsimony involved which allows the user to use and re-use a small set of postures and movements for many purposes. As one Okinawan at camp told me, "Kata is kata; application is application." You think your chain is being yanked with that statement until years later, you appreciate what a tidy little package you have in your hands.

I don't doubt, Jim, that butt-holes had information withheld from them. But I'm not so sure either the Chinese or the Okinawans have done ME a disservice. True, I had to figure a lot of stuff out on my own. But coming from an academic and a teacher, I'm not so sure that this isn't the best way for the student to learn.

After the 10th time Student A is still making the same &^% #&$^ very basic mistake in something you taught them, you realize that without a major change going on within them, "the message" never was intended to be passed to them. You can build a second floor on a house that has a faulty foundation, but that doesn't make it useful to anyone.

Just something to consider...

On the flip side... There ARE a couple of butt-hole teachers out there. These would be the ones who, when you travel halfway around the world as a sincere student of the art for decades, all they can do is correct the position of your pinkie or beat on you in your stance. IMO there's a whole LOT of butt-hole activity going on there.

- Bill

[MikeK]

... and place back of right shoken on top of back of left shoken.

Then in Sanseiryu you do either a 180-degree turn (first time you do it), or 45-degree turn (second time you do it) while holding the double-shoken, closed-gate-like posture.

I added these pieces because "the puzzle" makes no bloody sense without them. So often when people view kata, they are looking at one "technique" at a time. When you do that, you often will miss the original intent.

That's one of the first techniques we teach a newbie except with a different hand form; great technique and one of my favorites. I find it interesting that someone in the Uechi world decided to move the "official" introduction of the technique from Sanseiryu to the newer rookie kata Kanshiwa. That is if it is the technique Bill and I are thinking it is.

They are too effective...

And that is one good reason to "hide" techniques from rookies or even advanced students you don't trust. I have had techniques held back from me because they were simple, effective and dangerous to practice, and I find that I do the same thing when teaching.

[JimHawkins]

And that is one good reason to "hide" techniques from rookies or even advanced students you don't trust. I have had techniques held back from me because they were simple, effective and dangerous to practice, and I find that I do the same thing when teaching.

And there you go.. I do it; Mike does it and I'm sure others here as well..

CMA are a certain kind of animal in a unique culture.. TCMA schools of the traditional variety are setup like a family... And as in large families there are the good sons, the bad sons and the favorites of the father, which is what Sifu means.. The father will only pass on the best of what he has to his favorite son(s)... The rest are so much fodder, in varying levels..

[MikeK]

Here's the other thing Jim, IME the "advanced stuff" is usually based on things the student already knows and may be just a minor adjustment of tool and target, or the addition or subtraction of something to make the technique more effective. It's not like there is a totally different art or skill set being practiced in a secret room behind a hidden door.

In many ways you can teach everything the student will need, but you just shift their focus a little bit so they'll miss these so called "secrets". IMO traditional martial arts are rife with these distractions that keep the student busy looking for things that aren't there or working on things that have little relationship to the "secrets". IMO It's not a bad thing but just a bit of quality control.

[JimHawkins]

Here's the other thing Jim, IME the advanced stuff is usually based on things the student already knows and may be just a minor adjustment of tool or target, or the addition or subtraction of something to make the technique more effective. It's not like there is a totally different art or skill set being practiced in secret behind a hidden door.

Been there........

It's not the advanced stuff at all.. An old Chinese master once told me.. "There are no secret techniques..." However there is a big caveat: It all depends on exactly how and what was taught and behind which door, no there are no secret techniques, just how to train and apply the techniques we all "know"..as I indicated in other posts...

However, in some cases larger things are omitted.. The knife form in Ip Man's WCK is the prime example of this for Ip Man WCK folks.. Ip did not pass the form in its entirety on to any of his students that would go on to teach publicly.. Nor did he make any of those folks the official inheritor or leader of his system, not even his biological sons.

When he taught, he taught each of his students differently and in some cases toyed with them, especially if he didn't like them... He was also known for saying, "Don't take my word for anything, I might be tricking you. Best you go out and find out for yourself what works.."

[Bill Glasheen]

As I have been pondering all of this, I realized that I have one (1) and only one (1) piece of evidence that suggests the Okinawans may have deliberately hid something from the gaijin. Maybe... It all depends on how you view it.

If you want to learn a lot of practical, effective, non-sport applications of Uechi Ryu, spend some time with Jim Thompson. He spent 10 years in the Futenma dojo training under Uechi Kanei at a time when many current Okinawan masters were running around in diapers.

And boy does Jim know some stuff...

And boy does it take an extra effort to get some of that "stuff" out of Jim. He messes with your head. He'll flash something and then stop doing it. And if you were diligent, and noticed, you will ask him what he did. He'll repeat the kata move he did - the vanilla way. And if you're like me and say That wasn't what you did! - with a smile - he'll smile back. And then he'll show you something that he doesn't show the average student who doesn't go the extra mile.

That really is an Okinawan karate school way.

Anyhow... Somewhere, somehow... Dana got a piece of information like this out of Jim. And since I needle Dana about any and everything she knows that I don't (which is considerable) or things she does better than me (and there are quite a few), she will show me stuff. Cool stuff!

Thank you, Dana.

Here's the "evidence."

A handful of Okinawans worked with Kanei to create the 5 bridge kata. These were done both to help students train in more depth and also for marketing purposes. (Bigger and more is better, right? ) One of these kata is the very brilliant piece of choreography we know today as Seichin kata. Its primary author was Itokazu.

The original Seichin has a move in it that happened after the diagonal turn, circle, and shomen geri off the back leg. That's just before the two wrist movements and a subsequent 180-degree turn.

This technique was like a Sanchin kata wauke on a plane in front of the body. Only instead of pulling back to do the double boshiken, you turn 90 degrees and bring the circling arm from down below (in front of body) up to a supinated Sanchin posture.

Put it in context. A circle with pronated tiger hand, a mid-section kick, another circle all the way around and down, and then..

SNAP!!

The martial intent of this move is so apparent and so nasty. This is "the good stuff." And somebody removed this move fron the kata.

Bastards!!

But not in my dojo...

- Bill

[MikeK]

Heck Bill you can have the deadliest moves in a kata and it doesn't mean squat unless people recognize it or trained it. It's not so much that a move is pulled out of a kata but that the application was pulled out of or moved somewhere else in the curriculum.

[Bill Glasheen]

There's some truth to that, Mike!

- Bill

[MikeK]

Of course I'd say there is a lot of truth in what I said.

Because of over enthusiastic students or lax control over the dojo by the sensei or for whatever reason people were breaking their toys, in the end Uechi ended up with a secret/lost/hidden technique all without being watered down by the Japanese, Westerners or any conspiracy by the sensei to hold back the good stuff. In a way you can look at the hiding or holding back of techniques until someone has proven them self worthy as doing the responsible thing.

[jorvik]

I have an example from Aikido. When somebody strangles you or grabs you from behind you are supposed to bring your left leg back ,in a semi circle behind theirs then squat down and grab behind their knees and lift their legs up in front of you so that they fall back behind you......I could never do this move, in fact nobody could it was pointless and stupid
However, when I did a much older style of Aikido/Aiki jutsu............the move was done only slightly differently , but became deadly, a real killer technique...........instead of lifting their legs up you pull them to the side so that instead of falling backwards they fall to their side head first.and breakfall with their temple ...........thinking about it I think the first method must be for training purposes.but nobody in the Aikido club ever realised or even suspected this.

[MikeK]

That's a great example of safe-t-fying a technique Ray. I recently learned variations of some techniques that move them from plain good into "finishers" that would look familiar to a Shotokan guy. The changes were slight but ramped things up quite a bit.

IME having safer variations of a technique is great to make sure the beginners don't go and injure someone, that advanced folks have a method to train closer to full speed, and also have something for when dropping someone on their skull isn't needed. I will say that for the average person the safe version of most techniques could be enough for all their training and self defense needs and the more dangerous version never needs to be introduced into the curriculum.