What is karate?

[fivedragons]

Posted by Hoshin: "before anyone says "this is the way the old masters meant this action to be done" one should do their due diligence and look back at the history of the that kata."

All I'm really asking is, who knows the old masters? Are the old masters going to be able to help you when you need to "be" karate, not mimic it?

I ask again, what is karate?

[fivedragons]

Another way to put this is, what makes a master?

I don't have a master, and to be honest I don't know anyone in this society that does. Maybe made sense in a time where that was the way things were done. Doesn't happen anymore. People use the word without the meaning.

I have had teachers, and one of them stands head and shoulders above the rest, having nothing to do with his lineage, political or oganizational standing, ranking or anything of the sort.

He taught me how to learn. And he saw where I was going with "his" karate, and approved of it.

He taught me different aspects of different styles without teaching me a "style".

He gave me permission to use my body, mind, instincts as they are and gave me the tools to hone them.

It has been years since I've stepped foot in a dojo, but there isn't a day that goes by without me learning something new about "karate".

I can't stop.

[Bill Glasheen]

I ask again, what is karate?

If you ask half a dozen experienced practitioners this question, you very well may get half a dozen different answers. But there is a common theme.

My definition? Karate is martial movement. There are two key elements there. First, it's about fighting and/or self-defense. Second, it's about the movement. For a basic definition, you don't need to get a lot more complicated than that.

My movement may differ from yours. But we all are bound somewhat by what works. That's why martial arts of different persuasions and origins tend to look somewhat alike. This is particularly true to the extent that a style founder is wise enough to build upon what Mother Nature gave us - the lower brain responses.

With that in mind... You will find that a crude gedan barai exists in all of us before we ever walk into a formal karate training hall. It's one of many flinch responses pre-programmed in our lower brain. All the karate is doing is building on that natural response to a lower level threat, and teaching you how to flow into a position of control as opposed to one of being constantly on the defensive. The more training you do and the better you execute that training, the more you go from a reactive to a proactive mindset.

- Bill

[hoshin]

Five dragons, i see what you are saying even if i dont understand the wording 100%.

i know you are trying to make a point and get people thinking. you are not alone,
some people have come to the same conclusion 40 years ago. maybe even longer.
some of us agree some will not.

_______________________________________________________________________

"i dont really belive in styles anymore. i mean unless humans have 4 arms and 6 legs someday. there is really just the human style."

Bruce Lee

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[Bill Glasheen]

I ask again, what is karate?

I was game, and I gave it a shot.

Now I challenge you all. What ISN'T karate?

I am one of those people who when I hear "That's not Uechi!! " I get this sense like someone is taking their fingernails and scratching it on a chalkboard.

But obviously some people feel strongly about this. And I would be the first to put boundaries on what I do, if for no other reason than not to do things that either don't jive with the operating principles or just plain don't work.

So...

What ISN'T karate?

- Bill

[mhosea]

People use the word without the meaning.

As bad as using it with no meaning is using it with too much meaning. The title should neither be a political perk nor should it embarrass a modest person who has, with recognized success, dedicated their life to a certain study. De-mystify the term and give it back its rightful meaning, please. Stop trying to make it ridiculously idealistic. We are mortal. If we no longer produce masters with regularity, pretty soon we will no longer be able to produce journeymen, either.

[maxwell ainley]

Bill , This is not a challenge or anything of that nature ,I don't recall Kanbun saying, what he had learnt or taught was Karate ?,but I could be totally wrong .

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't recall Kanbun saying, what he had learnt or taught was Karate ?

No he didn't, did he?

Back then they called it "China hand." He described what he did as "pangainoon", which I take to mean a lot more than the simple "half hard, half soft." I see it to mean something more like yin and yang, which opens up the whole duality of what we do. Sometimes poking and sometimes grabbing. Sometimes forcing and sometimes yielding. Sometimes striking and sometimes grappling.

Okinawan Karate Inc. I believe has put artificial boundaries on what some of us (outside Kanbun's circle) believe "it" is. But that's a matter of packaging to create a marketable product, and not one of true essence (IMHO).

- Bill

[Glenn]

I don't recall Kanbun saying, what he had learnt or taught was Karate ?

No he didn't, did he?

Back then they called it "China hand." He described what he did as "pangainoon",

According to Alan Dollar's book (p 75), when Kanbun moved the location of his dojo in March 1932 to a public location, the sign he hung in front of the new dojo read Pangainoon-ryu Karate-Jutsu Kenkyu-Jo. Dollar goes on to say on the same page

Gichin Funnakoshi (sic) who is generally credited with being the first Okinawan to open a dojo in Japan opened his Meisei Juku dojo in Koishigawa, Tokyo two years later in 1934.

It is noteworthy that Kanbun used the word karate on the sign in front of his new dojo. This was four years before the reading of the kanji for "China Hand," tode, was changed to "empty hand," karate, in Japan and Okinawa. Kanbun's students referred to their art as karate from that time on.

[Glenn]

Also, on the Uechi-ryu Journal site, there is an article by Gordi Breyette, The Words ·Pan Gai Nun· and the Wakayama Dojo Signboard, that shows a picture of Kanbun's Wakiyama dojo sign about 2/3 of the way down the page, along with a clearer copy of the characters, followed by both a transliteration and a translation of the characters. Since Breyette has copyright claims watermarked on the picture I won't reproduce it here (you can see it in his article), but the transliteration and translation he gives are:

The three columns of the sign read as follows:
Pan Gai Nun Ryu
Kara Te Jutsu Kenkyu Sho
Kyoshi Uechi Kanbun

Translation:
Half-hard-soft Style (or Method)
Empty-Hand Skills Study Place (or Study Hall)
Teacher, Uechi Kanbun

The evidence does seem to indicate that Kanbun did indeed refer to what he taught as "karate," and with the empty-hand translation. The evidence would also seem to indicate that "Pangainoon" was being used by Kanbun as a formal style name rather than just as a description of what he did.

[maxwell ainley]

Glenn,

As you post ,the sign indicates the use of the word Karate .

And four years before the change from Tode ,interesting ,so Kanbun was aware of the Okinawan masters switch of names in the pipeline to come ,and was already there .

[jorvik]

I don't think it was just the change of name that was important I think that it signified that the Okinawans would no longer look to China for input on their martial arts, and that is part of the problem with karate.
IMHO there were a few major developments in karate's history. The first was the continued visits to China by karate men for a couple of hundred years.
The next was the exportation of karate to Japan which saw significant changes , most notably in Shotokan and by Gigo Funakoshi and Nakayama from whom we get the high kicks and the point sparring competitions. It changed in Japan too Mas Oyama changed kyokoshinkai, he realised that he didn't understand the kata ( again IMHO) and having changed them around then pursued the full contact compettion side of things and the breaking of wood etc..the next continued development was by his students and we get stuff like Ashihara karate and Ensin were the folks use a totally Western way of looking at things, and the katas reflect this...............
The problems in karate that I have encountered really reflect this development because some people will use terminology that was relevant to Chinese martial arts and yet not relevant to the Japanese or Western developed arts:roll:
For example in Chinese MA's stance is very important, and in the style that I study you may even say it is critical...but when you see a lot of karate ( and I am not thinking of uechi ryu here )..they will repeat the words, " stance is very important "but they will have no conception of what they mean. One guy told me to get into a good stance, I adopted a boxers stance.he repeated himself ....and then had me adopt a long low stance with my hands on my hips, I asked him why this was a good stance??.he couldn't answer and just kept repeating himself........because he didn't know . To a western boxer the stance would appear ridiculous.............so you see confusion all around

[MikeK]

In regards to the name "karate", it sounds like various names were commonly used long before 1936.

Missing pages but should give an idea of what was behind the name. Looks more like simple marketing/branding than anything else. We might make more of the name than they did.

[jorvik]

I think marketing did play a part ........I think that very probably you had pretty much the same mix of charachters doing Karate then as you do now. You would have your genuine, train hard enthusiasts and the quick buck merchants.and some folks who deserved recognition like Choki Motobu didn't get it while others ( who didn't deserve it ) like Gichin Funakoshi did

[Bill Glasheen]

According to Alan Dollar's book (p 75), when Kanbun moved the location of his dojo in March 1932 to a public location, the sign he hung in front of the new dojo read Pangainoon-ryu Karate-Jutsu Kenkyu-Jo. Dollar goes on to say on the same page

Gichin Funnakoshi (sic) who is generally credited with being the first Okinawan to open a dojo in Japan opened his Meisei Juku dojo in Koishigawa, Tokyo two years later in 1934.

It is noteworthy that Kanbun used the word karate on the sign in front of his new dojo. This was four years before the reading of the kanji for "China Hand," tode, was changed to "empty hand," karate, in Japan and Okinawa. Kanbun's students referred to their art as karate from that time on.

I got to thinking about this.

Why did Kanbun disassociate himself from tode (China hand), and instead choose to be an early user of the nationalistic term karate (empty hand)? The reason I ask is because I've seen other references to Kanbun's art as being tode as opposed to karate. Check out Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo, where Ryuko Tomoyose's beautiful caligraphy includes a page with tode.

One can only guess, although I'd love to hear opinions from people familiar with the history. Part of me wonders if Kanbun chose to operate below the radar after his unfortunate experiences (whatever they really were) before leaving China.

- Bill