Fake or Real Demo?

[Van Canna]

And Kata must be taught, in my view, along the same concept
of 'erasing' the 'attack intent' floating in an opponent's mind.

I teach kata around the lines that the primary moves of all kata are in fact attacks. What may be considered a block to some, I always see as an attack.

[Van Canna]

go-no-sen: reactive timing

sen-no-sen (or sen-sen-no-sen): pre-emptive timing

go-no-sen-no-sen: interceptive timing.

[Bill Glasheen]

I teach kata around the lines that the primary moves of all kata are in fact attacks. What may be considered a block to some, I always see as an attack.

I love asking people who do Seisan kata what the moves are (actually two different ones) after the "groin strikes." If the "B" word comes out, I am all over them like white on rice.

Seisan isn't a sparring kata; it is a battlefield form. And when you study it long enough, you find that there is an obsession with a certain kind of "lights out" technique.

- Bill

[kyushoguy]

Hi

I hope those of you who think the lunge punch relates to any attack the happens in the street, never get in a real fight.

cos youll lose.

I've seen high grade karateka get decked so many times in the street and it is obvious they just werent prepared for a street attack.

Which happens from bad breath distance then gets closer.

No one steps in and sticks there arm out in a straight line.

Distance is crucial here you dont get time to block.

And you will have no idea what attack is coming.

All karate punches are staight to your midline from a distance.

No one in traditional karate as exemplifired by these 'masters' goes for it as in a real go.

When did you last see a karate master win a nhb match.

Shotokan was designed for school children.

Which is why it is 90% children who practice it and 5% women.

tc

KG

[Bill Glasheen]

All karate punches are staight to your midline from a distance.

That's a pretty gross generalization. Uechi karate has many lateral attacks from close in.

As for what you typically observe on the street, well understanding that requires an understanding of gross vs. complex motor coordination when experiencing the survival stress reflex. It isn't that complicated really. The only important thing is understanding it and learning to deal with it.

Generally the karate obsession with going straight up the middle has less to do with what you expect to see and more to do with the ability to get there first. A straight line is the shortest distance from point A to point B. But straight line attacks require some complex motor coordination. Straight lines disappear when you lose it.

I've seen high grade karateka get decked so many times in the street and it is obvious they just werent prepared for a street attack.

Which happens from bad breath distance then gets closer.

No one steps in and sticks there arm out in a straight line.

Distance is crucial here you dont get time to block.

You might want to re-read what Van just posted here. It has nothing to do with waiting for the person "on the street" to do his thing before you do yours.

Shotokan was designed for school children.

Which is why it is 90% children who practice it and 5% women.

I have a fellow by the name of Ray Berry I'd like to introduce you to some time.

- Bill

[MikeK]

I have a fellow by the name of Ray Berry I'd like to introduce you to some time.

Or a couple of Green Hats that I know that come from the same Shotokan lineage as Mr. Berry.

What the poster fails to realize is that Shotokan took off in the Universities of Japan, not the elementary schools, and that the Okinawans were trying to get karate into the schools. For example, "The Geki Sai Kata were formulated by Chojun Miyagi Sensei in 1940 as a form of physical exercise for high school boys and to help popularize Goju-Ryu among the public of Okinawa".

[Van Canna]

Seisan isn't a sparring kata; it is a battlefield form. And when you study it long enough, you find that there is an obsession with a certain kind of "lights out" technique.

Correct, Bill.

People who have difficulty understanding these concepts that forms teach, have a certain sophomoric tinge to their martial thinking.

The 'tactical aspect' of movements has a way of being misunderstood.

[Van Canna]

This is just a reminder that there’s one week left until the next session of our Summer Safety Series at Redline Fight Sports. For those of you who attended our free seminar back in June, this session will delve deeper into all three dimensions of the PDR system, from physical tools and tactics to our unique FEAR Management principles.

This is from Jake Steinman,a graduate of Blauer's PDR system.

The kind of knowledge that makes any system optimal.

[MikeK]

This is a mixed bag of Shotokan apps. Some of these are pretty good and some are the usual crap.
One of my favorites, in a good way, is the flashy application with the spinning jump in it around the 18-19 second mark. It's from one of my favorite kata (empi) and the one little part left out is the grab and smashing of the head on the ground (the defender just takes a defensive stance). And yes, I've been on the receiving end of this one (minus the head smash) in free fighting and have used a variation of it.[/url]

[JimHawkins]

I hope those of you who think the lunge punch relates to any attack the happens in the street, never get in a real fight.

cos youll lose.

I've seen high grade karateka get decked so many times in the street and it is obvious they just werent prepared for a street attack.

Which happens from bad breath distance then gets closer.

No one steps in and sticks there arm out in a straight line.

Distance is crucial here you dont get time to block.

And you will have no idea what attack is coming.

All karate punches are staight to your midline from a distance.

No one in traditional karate as exemplifired by these 'masters' goes for it as in a real go.

When did you last see a karate master win a nhb match.

Shotokan was designed for school children.

Which is why it is 90% children who practice it and 5% women.

I see some good ideas in SK....

BTW: If you damn SK you also must damn TKD and Tang Soo Do..her twin sisters...



I also see some parallels in SK with Wing Chun--what I do..

I felt like I developed a better understanding of SK after doing some of the Chun as well..

There are certainly some good SK fighters out there be they more traditional or not.. Why we don't see them in reality fighting is a good question, but you really don't see a lot of any TMA represented in reality fighting...

I think that a lot of TMA would fare well in reality fighting so long as the rule set didn't severely de-fang the art in question... I think SK could do well in reality fighting too if done well and with the spirit of the style expressed more closely with it's roots.... Many TMA are poorly understood even by respected practitioners.. So you get a big mix of "stuff" being taught which in this case may or may not have anything to do with the intent of the training or system. I agree there is some distortion to deal with and like most arts it's hard to find anyone who is well informed and able to pass the style along..

Not all mid-line attacks in forms always mean mid-line..

Not all reverse punches need be straight..

A correctly done RP has mind blowing power and distance coverage--the very nature of this style..

Same could be said for many other SK techniques....

I've seen folks use a very Reverse Punch like move and *instantly* win a NHB fight. The "dynamic entry" nature of this art......

There are some folks who train hard with this system and there are those that don't... There are even folks teaching this art that don't believe in it or understand it.. They will have you training the traditional moves in class but then tell you to spar like a boxer when it comes time to put the gloves on in class..

Same troubles as many other arts... Lots of dilution and too many folks who just do it so they can wear the cool uniform...it's looks extra nice when pressed and you keep it clean......

Pardon my late night burbling.....

[chef]

I have a fellow by the name of Ray Berry I'd like to introduce you to some time.

Hmmm, I have been practicing Uechi for years and and a couple years in Shotokan, with Al Taylor. Al did street fight due to growing up in Pittsburgh as a kid and can get in quickly.

I just recently started training under Ray Berry, to get an extra class in Shotokan. That man can get in your face so quickly and most definitely advocates getting into the opponents space ASAP and with intensity. His footwork is amazing and fast. He would clean your clock, for sure. He is a Shotokan guy and, I have no, doubt, he would have trouble doing what is necessary to stop an attacker.

There is good and bad Uechi as well, but I would never knock any style until I saw many different practioners of tha style. Let's face reality, there is bad teaching/learning and good in every karate style.

I think anyone considering any martial art should be picky when choosing the school you wish to practice. I will start a thread on that soon.

Could be those guys have taken their instructors kicks/hit in the past and aren't relishing the pain, so are backing off with the adrenaline dump for fear in this particular demo. Do all of his demos look this?

Vicki

[Bill Glasheen]

Vicki had Mr. Berry look at the video. Ray Berry is the fellow I mentioned above, who I first met in 1974. Back then he had the scariest lunge punch and side thrust kick that I've ever seen a human being throw. Don't think much of lunge punches? At a Master Oshima Shotokan camp that Ray once attended, somebody got their sternum shattered by one of those. Oops! Guy was lucky he wasn't killed.

Ray was polite and generous when commenting on the video. A comment he made (that Vicki brought up) is that his junior students here were probably a bit intimidated - hence being way too far away on the attacks.

Ray's trying to be politically correct. I'm less generous with what amounts to a poorly practiced demo.

On the "bad partner" side... If someone doesn't give you an attack that's going to hit you, then both of you look stupid. As I've stated before, I'll often just drop my hands to make the point - letting the attacker alone look stupid. Once they try to hit you, then things make sense.

But we shouldn't over-analyze a single demo in time. It is what it is. Nothing to write home about.

Tsutomu Oshima (mentioned above) is Ray Berry's instructor. He is the founder of Shotokan Karate of America. Mr. Oshima had Funakoshi and others as his instructor.



Ray Berry is an Artist in Residence at Randolph-Macon college, where he teaches Shotokan karate



- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"A comment he made (that Vicki brought up) is that his junior students here were probably a bit intimidated - hence being way too far away on the attacks."

By what?

Wouldn't you have thought that one of his students would have taken him aside and said something on the lines of " This won't wash, you will look ridiculous and you will make Shotokan look ridiculous?"

this is a funny situation .to me I'm a buyer in a sellers market and I hope I look at things objectively. If something doesn't look right I ask why? and if I don't get a good answer I takes my money elsewhere........that's not to say I just do MA's for fighting..although I do like a workable template. All the Japanese styles seem, to operate from this ridiculously long range ...........The reason I think is that in Japan every martial art is subservient to the sword arts. Kendo and the like are widely respected and practised and so the range that people seem to aim for is "Sword range" .
A thing that I do find strange is when folks take up a style which is ineffective and then start defending it ( that's not to say all Shotokan is ineffective)......for example say I did capoera..I wouldn't promote it as a streetfighting style, I think it is wonderful exercise and looks really cool......but then you couldn't say that when you are attacked by a gang of hoodlums you do a handstands or a couple of cartwheels and a backflip..............and that's pretty much the same thing here with the long range attacks.

[JimHawkins]

Wouldn't you have thought that one of his students would have taken him aside and said something on the lines of " This won't wash, you will look ridiculous and you will make Shotokan look ridiculous?"

It's very simple, those folks are just not at the top of the SK demo game.. The SK based school I was at could put together a demo in an instant and we did one day.. We were told we were going out to some place to show off our karate and off we went.. We were quickly told who would perform which drills or sets, etc and in what order--done.

The same drills and so on we did in class were organized into a show and we just did for the crowd what we do in class.. After the show we told folks we just threw that together in an instant based on what we normally do and folks laughed, and said, yeah right!

If you are used to training more realistically and with contact then the results say it all, and vice versa..

All the Japanese styles seem, to operate from this ridiculously long range ...........The reason I think is that in Japan every martial art is subservient to the sword arts. Kendo and the like are widely respected and practised and so the range that people seem to aim for is "Sword range" .

Perhaps, but it's a lot easier to pass off a style in long range striking (just punch, kick and block) than it is to deal with the intricacies of close range attached bridge fighting. For that you need a total package and more complete info..

Without that knowledge you'll see the distance increase, you lose the attached methods and just punch and kick. Then the punching and kicking often turns into kick boxing... If you ask what happened to the karate they will tell you--that is karate.... Whatever...

[MikeK]

Quote
"A comment he made (that Vicki brought up) is that his junior students here were probably a bit intimidated - hence being way too far away on the attacks."

By what?

Wouldn't you have thought that one of his students would have taken him aside and said something on the lines of " This won't wash, you will look ridiculous and you will make Shotokan look ridiculous?" :

Ray,
In some schools it's more important to cultivate a strict hierarchy of rank regardless of practical skill or actual knowledge; often this is enforced by intimidation of juniors by their seniors. This gets carried over into demos by the participants and often times by the spectators. This works as long as everyone agrees to ignore the dust being swept under the rug.

I've been called for using things like irimi, ma, iai, sabaki and other Shotokan (at least Oshima's lineage) basics. For many in the Shoto-world the art boils down to lunge punches and down blocks done to perfection, but nothing more. Shotokan is actually very rich in technique and principles and it's sad to see branches that don't even know about what else the art has and think their demos are fine.