The problem with Washington and wars

[Jason Rees]

When we went from a strategy of overwhelming force and strategic occupation, to tactical force, centralized holdings, and patrolling, we started running into these problems.

It's wrong in so many ways that when we went back to the strategy that worked, Congress fired us. And also telling why it's taking so long to go back to what worked.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jason

Any thoughts after reading Sorley's editorial? It's basically an abridged version of his book.

There are lessons in Sorley's approach, by the way, which come all the way from Sun Tzu's work.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

III. ATTACK BY STRATAGEM


1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best
thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact;
to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is
better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
than to destroy them.

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to
balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent
the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in
order is to attack the enemy's army in the field;
and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

***

17. Thus we may know that there are five essentials
for victory:
(1) He will win who knows when to fight and when
not to fight.
(2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior
and inferior forces.
(3) He will win whose army is animated by the same
spirit throughout all its ranks.
(4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take
the enemy unprepared.
(5) He will win who has military capacity and is
not interfered with by the sovereign.

18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.

[Jason Rees]

I agree with it, Bill, and it points to one of the greatest wrongs committed by the Air Force against her sister services: claiming credit for all successes. We did some massive bombing campaigns (quite impressive, really) there, but the real turning of the tide was not accomplished by the Air Force. It really did lead to the completely spectacular performances, and yet lack of solid results that we've seen for the last several decades.

Alot of things go all the way back to the works accredited to Sun Tzu. You can adapt his strategy to anything that fights on land. It leaves out artillery, naval, and aircraft, but it is a very complete manual.

I have to wonder, though, since the massive surge in interest in all things asian a few decades ago, if there aren't some very good ancient western manuals of its like from, say, Rome, that have been mostly forgotten. Those would include artillery, seige, urban warfare, and naval strategy and tactics, of that you can be sure.

[Bill Glasheen]

XIII. THE USE OF SPIES


1. Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand
men and marching them great distances entails heavy loss
on the people and a drain on the resources of the State.
The daily expenditure will amount to a thousand ounces
of silver. There will be commotion at home and abroad,
and men will drop down exhausted on the highways.
As many as seven hundred thousand families will be impeded
in their labor.

2. Hostile armies may face each other for years,
striving for the victory which is decided in a single day.
This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's
condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred
ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, is the height
of inhumanity.

3. One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present
help to his sovereign, no master of victory.

4. Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good
general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond
the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge.

5. Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits;
it cannot be obtained inductively from experience,
nor by any deductive calculation.

6. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only
be obtained from other men.

7. Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes:
(1) Local spies; (2) inward spies; (3) converted spies;
(4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies.

8. When these five kinds of spy are all at work,
none can discover the secret system. This is called "divine
manipulation of the threads." It is the sovereign's
most precious faculty.

***

[Glenn]

I have to wonder, though, since the massive surge in interest in all things asian a few decades ago, if there aren't some very good ancient western manuals of its like from, say, Rome, that have been mostly forgotten. Those would include artillery, seige, urban warfare, and naval strategy and tactics, of that you can be sure.

There are several accounts of warfare from the Western ancient times, the writings of Xenophon and Julius Caesar for example, that describe details of seiges and battles, but I am not familiar with any treatises surviving from that time and place that would be similar to Sun Tzu in strategizing an ideal conduct of warfare. The closest Western example is probably von Clausewitz' unfinished On War, published posthumously in 1832 and largely influenced by the Napoleonic Wars.

[Jason Rees]

Sad but true.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm not so sure this doomsday scenario is inevitable.

I've been following the goings-on in Pakistan both by the articles being published in the WSJ as well as the commentaries from both Indians and Pakistanis afterwords. This "problem" we are facing is somewhat self-inflicted. We have given lots of no-strings-attached money to Pakistan because they are our "friend" and we are afraid what will happen if their nukes fall in the hands of Muslim extremists, only to have that money fall into the hands of the ISI which funds the insurgency in Afghanistan and protects bin Laden. India knows it and is pissed, because the muslim extremists - funded and organized by the ISI - are now coordinating terrorist operations against them. And the Pakistani government? They're attempting to make peace with the "good" Taliban while they wage war against "bad" Taliban. It is absolutely nuts.

We are being taken like fools by our "friends" in the region. And the olive branch offered by Obama? Forgetaboutit.

It's time to get serious about all of those in the region who want to grow and export terrorism in the region and work for the day that we all live under sharia law. These nuts are as serious about their global vision as Bush was about his. And nobody's going to give up until something breaks.

The bombings in Pakistan today? It's a prelude for things to come. Get used to it until somebody gets serious about cleaning up the fanatics.

Oh and it would help if we weren't funding corrupt regimes both in Afghanistan and Pakistan. No wonder the muslims want the U.S. and NATO out of there. I don't blame them. If it weren't for their global ambitions to foment terror, I'd say they can have all the sand and poppies they want.

- Bill

[Jason Rees]

I'm not so sure this doomsday scenario is inevitable.

Unless we see some major changes in policy here, I fear it is, Bill. And I don't see the wherewithall to do so coming out of the White House anytime soon.

[AAAhmed46]

I'm not so sure this doomsday scenario is inevitable.

I've been following the goings-on in Pakistan both by the articles being published in the WSJ as well as the commentaries from both Indians and Pakistanis afterwords. This "problem" we are facing is somewhat self-inflicted. We have given lots of no-strings-attached money to Pakistan because they are our "friend" and we are afraid what will happen if their nukes fall in the hands of Muslim extremists, only to have that money fall into the hands of the ISI which funds the insurgency in Afghanistan and protects bin Laden. India knows it and is pissed, because the muslim extremists - funded and organized by the ISI - are now coordinating terrorist operations against them. And the Pakistani government? They're attempting to make peace with the "good" Taliban while they wage war against "bad" Taliban. It is absolutely nuts.

We are being taken like fools by our "friends" in the region. And the olive branch offered by Obama? Forgetaboutit.

It's time to get serious about all of those in the region who want to grow and export terrorism in the region and work for the day that we all live under sharia law. These nuts are as serious about their global vision as Bush was about his. And nobody's going to give up until something breaks.

The bombings in Pakistan today? It's a prelude for things to come. Get used to it until somebody gets serious about cleaning up the fanatics.

Oh and it would help if we weren't funding corrupt regimes both in Afghanistan and Pakistan. No wonder the muslims want the U.S. and NATO out of there. I don't blame them. If it weren't for their global ambitions to foment terror, I'd say they can have all the sand and poppies they want.

- Bill

I agree with most of what you said, though the whole giving money to governments is a viscous circle.

From what i understand one of the biggest recruitment tools of the terrorists is they state how Washington would fund corrupt oppressive governments.

the problem is that these corrupt governments fear the terrorists as much as western powers do. So in the end it ends up feeding it self, more funding since there is a common enemy, so they get funding. And then retards start to use this as a recruitment tool.

Another problem is that they put their foothold on to people because it's the extremists that open schools and hand out food and aid to the poor, something their own governments totally forget about.
Why are religious institutions the only soarce of education instead of the government?

That's not to say all Islamic schools promote terrorism, i met men my age who had their elementary education done in an islamic school then went on to higher education when his family became more wealthy. But due to the fact that Islam is decentralized, really it could be sane or insane.
One of the reasons why you have engineers and educated Muslim terrorists is because they probably spent 15 years of basic education from someone not too fond of the west.(Home grown terror is even more complex)
Why keep funding governments? I think they shouldn't but it goes like this: Iran is harsh, but far less oppressive then Saudi Arabia. Yet there is far more support for the saudi government then iran. Simply because the royal family fears terrorists because they arn't crazy ENOUGH. So they get support. Iran on the other hand isn't fond of the sunni muslims, but really has a nationalistic population that isn't too fond of Arabs and resents the west's past actions regarding Iran. So we have Saudi arabia hinting at aiding Isreal on an attack on iran, wit saudi arabia economically punishing sudan on it's stance on the iraq war and the U.S.(now considering what the current government is doing, maybe not so bad, but the people suffer more then the governments)

And yet, the terrorists will point out "Look how horrible your governments are. Look who is supporting them!"
Even a conversation with a bunch of beer guzzelling, womanizing lebanese canadians who don't know the quran from an arab pop music( we got lots of lebanese in Edmonton) will have them pointing this out, without desire to kill an maim of course.

On Afghanistan specifically, there is an unfortunate fact that anything opposing the west there is labelled taliban, when you got all sorts of people firing at the canadians and americans right now for various reasons, like drug dealers or tribal violence. My cousins father in law in a Pathan from nothern pakistan, has a long beard and dresses in a thobe talked about Swat valley and pakistans taliban very disparrigingly, blamed it on tribalism more then religious law. Everyone is aware of teh mask of religion used, but almost all paksitanis ive talked to have a consensus in a belief of it being tribal in it's roots despite what robert spencer may have you believe. I remember visiting karachi when i was eight, you could hear gun fire in the night when they would fight. At the time, it wasn't dressed as religiously, but still existed.
That weirdo sheik guy who's name i unfortunatly forgot had an interview in a pakistani newspaper, talked about how he thinks woman should not be in the workplace, the reaction against these comments was surprisingly strong.

Eric Margolis, who travelled the middle east for 50 years(Social and economic conservative, but left wing on the middle east) spent lots of time with muhahideen. Found that half wanted islamic law in their countries and the world with a new caliphate, but just as many militants simply wanted an Islamic democracy(similar to isreal's jewish democracy) in thier countries.

Matthew Alexander in his book how to break a terrorist(the book is very pro-Iraq war but anti-torture, does not discuss water boarding at all) specifically points out in his book that when he interrogated terrorists in Iraq,Though it's obvious al-queerda has very religiously motivated goals, very few wanted to establish sharia law, many joined either out of fear of shiite militias or money or were scared to oppose them. Only a few were real Durka durka. Very different then the picture painted by many, certainly diffent from spencer in his claims that 1 in 3 muslims secretly wants to turn the world into sharia law....Alexanders findings are more similar to what Tom Clancy seems to say(i know he isn't an expert on anything, but i was surprised at how well he grasped everything)


If obama stops funding these corrupt governments, lots of problems could seriously be solved, only problem is, if that happens, will the backlash create elected Extremist governments like what happened in Iran after the shah took power and was funded by the west(remember the previous government was relatively secular) and then overthrown and replaced by a theocracy?
It's a real problem.

But so is funding these ##### governments is just as bad.

well i kind of get off topic on here, and wrote it in a rush, so forgive me if it comes off as a bit incoherent.

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks, Adam!

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

http://islamonline.com/news/articles/2/ ... S_Aid.html

Pakistan Christians Spurn US Aid
08/10/2009 11:11:39 AM GMT Comments (0) Add a comment Print E-mail to friend

GOJRA -- Victims of communal riots that left seven Christians dead in August have refused to accept aid from the United States, blaming its policies for “hatred” against Christians in the Muslim world. “We have conveyed a clear message to the US official that we don’t need your aid,” Almas Masih, a local Christian who was injured in communal violence in Gojra, located some 55 kilometers from the textile city of Faisalabad, after a reported desecration of the Quran, told IslamOnline on Wednesday, October 7.

“We simply want the US to change its despotic policies because they directly hurt Christians living in Muslim countries, including Pakistan.”

Scores of Christians, led by their leaders Fennas Randhawa Paul Masih, got to their feet as soon as the principal officer of the US Consulate in Lahore Carmella Cornoy began distributing relief goods at among the families of the deceased and injured a local Catholic Church on Monday, October 5.

The angry Christians, who openly blamed the US policies for creating problems for them, threw away the packages towards the stage where Ms Cornoy was sitting.

“Go America Go,” “US hegemony not acceptable,” “Don’t kill innocent people for oil,” they chanted, prompting the security guards to immediately escort the US official from the ceremony.

Local authorities tried to calm down the angry Christians but they refused to accept the relief goods despite repeated pleas.

“She is our guest and you should not behave like this,” provincial minister Dost Mohammad Khosa told the crowd. But, his please went unheeded.

Richard Snelsire, the US embassy spokesman in Islamabad, played down the issue.

“We all have really missed that. My people on ground say no such incident happened there,” he told IOL.

“I have heard about the protest, but I thought it was for justice and not against our policies.

“All I can say is that it is unfortunate regardless of what happened there.”

Damaging US Policies

Almas insisted the Christians protest was not aimed at humiliating the American guest, but to convey their indignation against American policies.

“Before 9/11, there were intermittent incidents of violence against Christians, but after that, there has been an increase in violence against minorities, particularly Christians,” he said.

“And this all is because of US hegemonic policies.”

Christians are the largest religious minority in Muslim-majority Pakistan, making up 3 percent of its 170 people.

They mostly live in Punjab, the country’s most populous and richest province.

Sarfraz Thomas, another Christian who refused to receive the relief goods, said some emotional Pakistani Muslims show their reaction against American policies by attacking them.

“They think that America is a Christian country, and it has been destroying the Muslims all over the world,” he told IOL.

“This is a minority, which in the name of religion, penalizes us for American policies. But a majority of Pakistanis know and understand that we have no say in US policies. We are equally against its wrong policies.”

Thomas praised local scholars for playing a role in strengthening harmony between Muslims and Christians.

He had one clear message for Washington.

“If the US wants peace in the world, then it has only one option and that is to change its aggressive policies.”

Not exactly an objective source, but it emphasizes the political roots of terrorism. Why would Christians want to establish sharia law? They don't. But their political views seem to be in tune with the Muslims of the area.
I doubt the christian feelings would be so strong if the states didn't support governments that oppress them.

Why are the views of devout Pakistani christians so different from the right wing evangelists in america?

[Bill Glasheen]

Why would Christians want to establish sharia law?

Non sequitur.

I doubt the christian feelings would be so strong if the states didn't support governments that oppress them.

It's a lot more complicated than that, Adam.

US aid is being diverted to the ISI, which is fomenting terrorism outside the border of Pakistan. And now the terrorists they grew are coming home to roost - hoping to overthrow their own government.

They're also emboldened to attack the minority Christians. As I understand it from reading the India/Pakistani chatter, muslims in the region are using this money to train their own mujahadin warriors, and they are wreaking havoc everywhere.

I don't blame the Punjab Christians for being angry. But I wouldn't just blame the US. Still... throwing money unconditionally at a Pakistani government because you think they will help you in Afghanistan hasn't quite worked out as they hoped. Instead of quenching the training of muslim warriors, it has thrown gasoline on the flame.

Good luck, Obama. Sadly I see him about as effective as a deer in the headlamps right now. This very well may blow up in the face of the Nobel Peace Prize winner. And it will serve those silly Norwegians right.

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

Pakistan is doing something about it, though.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... index.html

And I hope that noboy's rooting for Obama to fail in his foreign policy, just so they can show up the Norwegians.

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

And I hope that noboy's rooting for Obama to fail in his foreign policy, just so they can show up the Norwegians.

Big difference between rooting against someone and having no faith, Gene. Just being a realist. But we shall see.

The Peace prize was total BS, Gene. Don't get me started...

Yes, the long-awaited, oft announced ground offensive has finally started. Good luck with that.

- Bill