Why women can't hit hard
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jorvik
there is a Chinese saying " If you want to learn good Gung Fu, go to a small weak woman". The problem is the people who are likely to attack you are the ones who perceive an advantage, I for one could not trade punches ( or even take one from Mike Tyson). A women cannot trade punches with a man and realistically she will never be able to, she must use other methods, it is no good relying on a technique that will take too long to develop and will be "questionable" when you perform it. If I had to fight a much larger man I would use elbow strikes or try to get him to look the other way before I attacked. There is no such thing as a fair fight, and if you have to fight, then you have to be realistic.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
I think there is a quote from one of the armed services that says
"Any fight you win is fair. The only unfair fights are the ones you lose."
Problem is, many women connect hitting hard with punishment. That sounds silly to some guys, but it's true for some, though not all women.
However - technique that takes longer to learn than technique that is easier to learn does not measure the validity of a technique.
it took me a long time to learn how to strike with my entire body instead of just my upper body, but now that I know it, I have trouble hitting without using everything I've got. Does that fact that it took me a long time to learn this make it invalid?
Dana
"Any fight you win is fair. The only unfair fights are the ones you lose."
Problem is, many women connect hitting hard with punishment. That sounds silly to some guys, but it's true for some, though not all women.
However - technique that takes longer to learn than technique that is easier to learn does not measure the validity of a technique.
it took me a long time to learn how to strike with my entire body instead of just my upper body, but now that I know it, I have trouble hitting without using everything I've got. Does that fact that it took me a long time to learn this make it invalid?
Dana
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jorvik
I think that anything that takes too long to learn is invalid. Rather like one of those old fliers for a kung fu style, you used to see, were they would tell you it took 20 years to learn the stance...........I mean what's the point of that? and the same goes for anything martial, simple is best..try an elbow strike on a heavy bag and you'll blow it away. Hit somebody in the ear with it and you'll blow them away.
If somebody attacks you....you can't say " hang on I have not learnt the "defence to that move yet....or come back later when I've developed sufficient power!!" What everybody needs is simple quickly learned techniques...after that by all means experiment....do what you want.
If you look to the military for enlightenment...how long do they spend teaching unarmed combat drills?
If somebody attacks you....you can't say " hang on I have not learnt the "defence to that move yet....or come back later when I've developed sufficient power!!" What everybody needs is simple quickly learned techniques...after that by all means experiment....do what you want.
If you look to the military for enlightenment...how long do they spend teaching unarmed combat drills?
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Akil Todd Harvey
- Posts: 790
- Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Greetings Everyone,
So very interesting, this post is....
I tend to agree with Jorvik questioning the validity of techniques requiring extended periods of time to develop.
TSDguy, your comments are most welcome. I used the ball of my foot for years even after I gained strength and confidence in the ability to use the toes. On roundhouses, I kinda like the shin.
Many of the training exercises in Uechi involve roundhouse kicks and something less than the full use of the shin a la "Muiy Thai". Why would they use something that hurts less and is an apparently less effective weapon? Because training exercises are for training and exercise, not for self defense. The self defense application is slightly different because you dont mind injuring your attacker (it is probably the goal at that point).
KerryM, stick with the palm heel. I do. Why not use the palm heel? Does it work? Is it Uechi? Does it Work for YOU?
I used to have a lot of trouble with the single knuckle punch/strike. My trouble? I could never see myself hitting anyone with that one knuckle protruding by itself in front of all the others (back there in relative safety and immunity). Ten years later and that same weapon that I lacked confidence in is now one of my favorites, but only because I will never aim it at anything hard and because it has become stronger over the years.
The ordinary karate punch has its place, so do not disregard it entirely. Continue to develop it. The palm heel is still my preferred weapon. To this day I still generate far more power via the palm heel than the straight punch and I break far fewer bones. Who said the alignment is easier for the palm heel?
From a self-defense point of view, It may be recommended that you make careful mental notes of what works well, what works ok, & what does not really work. In time, you WILL have different understanding, not necessarily better, but different. The difference will depend on your experiences, how much thought you give to the actuall application of these developed skills, and lots of other factors.
What you should not do too much is worry. You are right where you are supposed to be, you are doing what you are probably suposed to be doing (asking questions, practicing, thinking), and your progress will occur when you are ready, not a moment sooner. If anything happens requiring the use of your skills, IMHO, the hardest part may come afterwards. You may question yourself as to your effective use of your skills. Should you have done this? Could you have done that?
If we must interrogate ourselves after being victimized, let us ask ourselves how we think we would have faired without the self defense training? Did we think we lost when we could actually view ourselves as the victor? View the glass as half full, rather than half empty. Step out of your self-expectations and just be glad we are alive and well with a bruise or a scrape (I pray nothing worse befalls you'all).
So very interesting, this post is....
I tend to agree with Jorvik questioning the validity of techniques requiring extended periods of time to develop.
TSDguy, your comments are most welcome. I used the ball of my foot for years even after I gained strength and confidence in the ability to use the toes. On roundhouses, I kinda like the shin.
Many of the training exercises in Uechi involve roundhouse kicks and something less than the full use of the shin a la "Muiy Thai". Why would they use something that hurts less and is an apparently less effective weapon? Because training exercises are for training and exercise, not for self defense. The self defense application is slightly different because you dont mind injuring your attacker (it is probably the goal at that point).
KerryM, stick with the palm heel. I do. Why not use the palm heel? Does it work? Is it Uechi? Does it Work for YOU?
I used to have a lot of trouble with the single knuckle punch/strike. My trouble? I could never see myself hitting anyone with that one knuckle protruding by itself in front of all the others (back there in relative safety and immunity). Ten years later and that same weapon that I lacked confidence in is now one of my favorites, but only because I will never aim it at anything hard and because it has become stronger over the years.
The ordinary karate punch has its place, so do not disregard it entirely. Continue to develop it. The palm heel is still my preferred weapon. To this day I still generate far more power via the palm heel than the straight punch and I break far fewer bones. Who said the alignment is easier for the palm heel?
From a self-defense point of view, It may be recommended that you make careful mental notes of what works well, what works ok, & what does not really work. In time, you WILL have different understanding, not necessarily better, but different. The difference will depend on your experiences, how much thought you give to the actuall application of these developed skills, and lots of other factors.
What you should not do too much is worry. You are right where you are supposed to be, you are doing what you are probably suposed to be doing (asking questions, practicing, thinking), and your progress will occur when you are ready, not a moment sooner. If anything happens requiring the use of your skills, IMHO, the hardest part may come afterwards. You may question yourself as to your effective use of your skills. Should you have done this? Could you have done that?
If we must interrogate ourselves after being victimized, let us ask ourselves how we think we would have faired without the self defense training? Did we think we lost when we could actually view ourselves as the victor? View the glass as half full, rather than half empty. Step out of your self-expectations and just be glad we are alive and well with a bruise or a scrape (I pray nothing worse befalls you'all).
HI-
I'm thinking that the "basic" movement- or application- of a "technique" doesn't take long to develope- "Mastering" ANY technique can take a life-time... If you are "in-the-process" of lerning a technique- you have gotten the basic "idea" of what you are supposed to be trying to do- in a fight- which is better than nothing. the confidense level itself- that causes the defensive reaction in the first place- is better than having no idea of any "technique" you might be attempting. something is better than nothing- I guess is what I'm saying.
IMHO: to continue to work on a technique- to get as good at it as possible- would be more enlightening spiritually, than learning a "simple" (meaning easy to "perfect") technique- though it may be more useful in an actual fight. It depends I guess on the focus of your mind/heart, when you choose a style. I mean, if you are in a position where dangerous situations occur often in your life, than you'd need to learn a style that would accomodate that. i.e. the military trraining that was brought up. If your focus/daily life, is less dangerous, than you could study something that might take a little longer to learn- knowing that- if you have "the basic idea" of the techniques involved- you would have the ability to defend yourself- if something came up.
Forgive me- I'm not sure what is meant by the "palm heel" that like the arch area- or ball of your foot?
Just my own opinion here-
K
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Palm heel = bushiken
A palm heel is a bushiken without the thumb. So you hit with the heel of your hand. Very effective technique.
The military only trains empty handed for a few weeks becuase they mostly fight with big guns. I am not going to fight with an M-16. So if something takes me 3 years to master and then I have it for the rest of my life...
So what's too long?
Dana
But what is too long?I think that anything that takes too long to learn is invalid.
The military only trains empty handed for a few weeks becuase they mostly fight with big guns. I am not going to fight with an M-16. So if something takes me 3 years to master and then I have it for the rest of my life...
So what's too long?
Dana
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Tue Nov 26, 2002 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Whoops Great big fat DUH for me- thought it was a place on your foot.
Dana- do you consider getting your black belt "mastering"? I'm preparing for my test- but honestly- I feel like when I get it...I'll just be starting to work towards mastering... But I don't think that's what you meant- is why I ask. It's strange, but with all my training, working towards this goal, It feels like, well, it's like if you are trying to reach the highway- to go to a certain destination-right- you take secondary roads to get to the actual highway- which is when you can start cruising along towards where-ever you are going... I feel like reaching black belt level- will put me on the highway... towards being the best martial artist I can be until I die. This part, before black belt, is like the secondary roads. I'm learning the things/techniques, excersizes, etc. that will allow me to cruise along the highway. The different levels of kyu ranks are the gears in my car- so to speak. Sometimes one breaks or needs repairing... (discouragment, memory lapses...etc.) But they are all in an effort to become a black-belt, (get to the highway), to begin living the martial artist's way of life- or improve that which I've started. I guess that IS a mastering of one part. I will have mastered getting myself to the highway, mastered learning to work through the repairs to my car. LOL Sheesh I'm rambling-
Anyway-
Just my opinion-thoughts....
K
Dana- do you consider getting your black belt "mastering"? I'm preparing for my test- but honestly- I feel like when I get it...I'll just be starting to work towards mastering... But I don't think that's what you meant- is why I ask. It's strange, but with all my training, working towards this goal, It feels like, well, it's like if you are trying to reach the highway- to go to a certain destination-right- you take secondary roads to get to the actual highway- which is when you can start cruising along towards where-ever you are going... I feel like reaching black belt level- will put me on the highway... towards being the best martial artist I can be until I die. This part, before black belt, is like the secondary roads. I'm learning the things/techniques, excersizes, etc. that will allow me to cruise along the highway. The different levels of kyu ranks are the gears in my car- so to speak. Sometimes one breaks or needs repairing... (discouragment, memory lapses...etc.) But they are all in an effort to become a black-belt, (get to the highway), to begin living the martial artist's way of life- or improve that which I've started. I guess that IS a mastering of one part. I will have mastered getting myself to the highway, mastered learning to work through the repairs to my car. LOL Sheesh I'm rambling-
Anyway-
Just my opinion-thoughts....
K
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jorvik
quote
"So what's too long? "
Hi Dana,
I think that you should be able to use a technique pretty much straight away.....obviously you will get better with practise. This would apply to "core" techniques, stuff that you would use on a regular basis. I wasted years learning how to kick high, I was never any good...and no matter how long I trained I never would be. It was a total waste of time, in half an hour I could learn to kick to the knee which is a lot more powerfull, damaging and harder to detect.....I did not need to devote even one tenth of the time to learn how to do that. If I were involved in a violent confrontation, I would be much more liable to use something like that, which is both simple and yet effective.
Women in martial arts face different problems to men, and that should be reflected in their training. I don't just mean size and strength, men face that problem as well ...a 5 foot man fighting a 6foot 7 inch man for example. A women is much more likely have to fight off a rapist than a mugger.
By all means learn a punch that takes three years, if you so desire.....but be aware that an elbow strike used with a bit of guile and feminine cunning will do the job far easier.
"So what's too long? "
Hi Dana,
I think that you should be able to use a technique pretty much straight away.....obviously you will get better with practise. This would apply to "core" techniques, stuff that you would use on a regular basis. I wasted years learning how to kick high, I was never any good...and no matter how long I trained I never would be. It was a total waste of time, in half an hour I could learn to kick to the knee which is a lot more powerfull, damaging and harder to detect.....I did not need to devote even one tenth of the time to learn how to do that. If I were involved in a violent confrontation, I would be much more liable to use something like that, which is both simple and yet effective.
Women in martial arts face different problems to men, and that should be reflected in their training. I don't just mean size and strength, men face that problem as well ...a 5 foot man fighting a 6foot 7 inch man for example. A women is much more likely have to fight off a rapist than a mugger.
By all means learn a punch that takes three years, if you so desire.....but be aware that an elbow strike used with a bit of guile and feminine cunning will do the job far easier.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Jorvik,
Bear with me a little bit...I'm going to extend and exaggerate what I perceive to be your rational...
If I wanted to learn combat I wouldn't train in an empty-handed art. If I wanted to learn combat I would train in our military. And then I'd "train" on the street. I use every weapon at my disposal and I wouldn't care about my control - mental or physical. I wouldn't care about the development of my body, my mind or my spirit. I'd just see red and go crazy on anybody I thought I could beat.
Since no woman can learn an effective punch in 1/2 an hour then no woman should punch. Women should just throw knees and elbows and prepare for rape attacks.
Since all the skill you really need in knee strikes and elbow strikes (and I'll even add in groin slaps & palm heels) can be taught in about 3 weeks I'll be done with my necessary martial arts training before Christmas.
I guess I'll need to ask Santa for a new hobby.
Bear with me a little bit...I'm going to extend and exaggerate what I perceive to be your rational...
If I wanted to learn combat I wouldn't train in an empty-handed art. If I wanted to learn combat I would train in our military. And then I'd "train" on the street. I use every weapon at my disposal and I wouldn't care about my control - mental or physical. I wouldn't care about the development of my body, my mind or my spirit. I'd just see red and go crazy on anybody I thought I could beat.
Since no woman can learn an effective punch in 1/2 an hour then no woman should punch. Women should just throw knees and elbows and prepare for rape attacks.
Since all the skill you really need in knee strikes and elbow strikes (and I'll even add in groin slaps & palm heels) can be taught in about 3 weeks I'll be done with my necessary martial arts training before Christmas.
I guess I'll need to ask Santa for a new hobby.
whoa.whoa,whoa!
Easy now! Good points on both sides!
Jorvik, I know lots of people who think that a quickly-learned technique will bail them out in a pinch. "Just kick him in the knee" or something to that effect.
In your defense, I must point out that Uechi eschews the high-falootin' fancy high kicks in favor of the lower, more effective and yes, more quickly-learned types.
However, as Dana pointed out, the ability to actually perform even such a basic gross-motor movement requires more than just knowledge and muscle-memory.
Lots of spirit, determination, fearlessness and familiarity are required to draw that particular gun in surprise and make it work. Agreed?
I think this is what Dana means about the "ready-by-Christmas" answer, because a lot of people think the application is really that easy.
Dana, don't let me put words in your mouth please, but that's how I read this. (?)
The actual fighting techniques (theoretical) have to be used by a well-prepared (trained) person to make them work.
I think this is one of the great dangers in Martial Arts, the feeling that the one sweaty class every few days is enough to prepare the student for reality. This confidence is great, and effective in warding off predators.
But when reality intrudes...perhaps the long hours/days/weeks/ are really required to make that technique (the simple variety, as Jorvik points out), actually come to one's aid. (?) NM
Easy now! Good points on both sides!
Jorvik, I know lots of people who think that a quickly-learned technique will bail them out in a pinch. "Just kick him in the knee" or something to that effect.
In your defense, I must point out that Uechi eschews the high-falootin' fancy high kicks in favor of the lower, more effective and yes, more quickly-learned types.
However, as Dana pointed out, the ability to actually perform even such a basic gross-motor movement requires more than just knowledge and muscle-memory.
Lots of spirit, determination, fearlessness and familiarity are required to draw that particular gun in surprise and make it work. Agreed?
I think this is what Dana means about the "ready-by-Christmas" answer, because a lot of people think the application is really that easy.
Dana, don't let me put words in your mouth please, but that's how I read this. (?)
The actual fighting techniques (theoretical) have to be used by a well-prepared (trained) person to make them work.
I think this is one of the great dangers in Martial Arts, the feeling that the one sweaty class every few days is enough to prepare the student for reality. This confidence is great, and effective in warding off predators.
But when reality intrudes...perhaps the long hours/days/weeks/ are really required to make that technique (the simple variety, as Jorvik points out), actually come to one's aid. (?) NM
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jorvik
quote
"If I wanted to learn combat I wouldn't train in an empty-handed art. If I wanted to learn combat I would train in our military."
I'm a bit confused by this,surely if you want to develop an effective punch, then it is for combat?.....self defence is combat isn't it?
My first Sensei taught women totally differently to men, and they were all tremendous fighters, and as you say they fundamently used elbows, knees and open handed strikes. The way that I see Martial arts is as a solution to a problem ( much more as well, but that's a different issue). First you have to define the problem and it's a different problem for men and women........
As to weapons I think that you should be able to use them. This is one thing that I don't understand on these forums........everyone and his dog seems to have some sort of gun
so you only need the karate to work until you can get your gun, or he gets his 
Very different were I live, but then it would probably be a knife..........
If you just do karate as a physical exercise, fair enough ignore what I say it's irrelevant
....if you see it as self defence then you have my opinion, if you see it as a spiritual exercise you also have my opinion ( spirituality should be based on truth).
2 Green made a very good point just because these things are simple doesn't mean that you will be able to use them straight out of the box, you will be able to use them a lot sooner, but they still require practise.
A further point..on another thread I mentioned one of the best fighters that I have ever seen....a man....who used only those techniques that you mentioned, he never deviated from them..it was always two open hand strikes followed by an elbow strike and a takedown......don't misunderstand what I say.....I admire you for taking the time to perfect a technique, Bill has mentioned it on his forum and does something similar ( I think).an undulating wave movement, a ripple through the body, and it would work on the streets..........I just don't think that it's for everybody, and I do know that elbow strikes are a dam sight harder than punches, and you can do them straight away
.
"If I wanted to learn combat I wouldn't train in an empty-handed art. If I wanted to learn combat I would train in our military."
I'm a bit confused by this,surely if you want to develop an effective punch, then it is for combat?.....self defence is combat isn't it?
My first Sensei taught women totally differently to men, and they were all tremendous fighters, and as you say they fundamently used elbows, knees and open handed strikes. The way that I see Martial arts is as a solution to a problem ( much more as well, but that's a different issue). First you have to define the problem and it's a different problem for men and women........
As to weapons I think that you should be able to use them. This is one thing that I don't understand on these forums........everyone and his dog seems to have some sort of gun
so you only need the karate to work until you can get your gun, or he gets his Very different were I live, but then it would probably be a knife..........
If you just do karate as a physical exercise, fair enough ignore what I say it's irrelevant
....if you see it as self defence then you have my opinion, if you see it as a spiritual exercise you also have my opinion ( spirituality should be based on truth).2 Green made a very good point just because these things are simple doesn't mean that you will be able to use them straight out of the box, you will be able to use them a lot sooner, but they still require practise.
A further point..on another thread I mentioned one of the best fighters that I have ever seen....a man....who used only those techniques that you mentioned, he never deviated from them..it was always two open hand strikes followed by an elbow strike and a takedown......don't misunderstand what I say.....I admire you for taking the time to perfect a technique, Bill has mentioned it on his forum and does something similar ( I think).an undulating wave movement, a ripple through the body, and it would work on the streets..........I just don't think that it's for everybody, and I do know that elbow strikes are a dam sight harder than punches, and you can do them straight away
.
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jorvik
Anyone seen the movie Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon?
Awesome movie-
Jade Fox learned a bunch of the style (Quigong I thing something from "Wudan Mountian" and became stagnent- but she still killed people- (but she's a bad "guy")
The younger "Jen excelled in the same thing and she killed people too-
But I bet with in the first year they both could kill people-
Within the first year of UEchi- using the one knuckle punch in the kumitae (%th) to the back of the head you can kill- using a buskin or front punch- to the throat you can kill-
To learn any style- takes time- to master anything takes a long time- the allotted time is relevent to each person- and shouldn't matter at all. What should matter is the actual training and spirit/heart you put into it. Being a man or woman shouldn't matter but what you put into it-
I've seen men train, who were so convinced that they were invinsible (because they were training) that they didn't pay much attention to "what" they were learning- an I-kyu (such as myself LOL) could hurt them easily- I've also met a young teenage girl barely a green belt, whom took her training so seriously that she saved herself from a much older MALE whom was trying to really hurt she and her friend. The male was older, larger, and she managed to get herself out of the water he was holding her under and scare him enough to send he and his frriends running after "defending herself".
Woman rock- and knowing that we have these "strtucture" differences, and other differences, only causes us to train harder, with our hearts in our wrists, (so to speak) and come out punching and kicking as well as the next guy. (Men are cool too. no offense)
just MHOpinions here-
watch that movie too- it's really cool-
K
Awesome movie-
Jade Fox learned a bunch of the style (Quigong I thing something from "Wudan Mountian" and became stagnent- but she still killed people- (but she's a bad "guy")
The younger "Jen excelled in the same thing and she killed people too-
But I bet with in the first year they both could kill people-
Within the first year of UEchi- using the one knuckle punch in the kumitae (%th) to the back of the head you can kill- using a buskin or front punch- to the throat you can kill-
To learn any style- takes time- to master anything takes a long time- the allotted time is relevent to each person- and shouldn't matter at all. What should matter is the actual training and spirit/heart you put into it. Being a man or woman shouldn't matter but what you put into it-
I've seen men train, who were so convinced that they were invinsible (because they were training) that they didn't pay much attention to "what" they were learning- an I-kyu (such as myself LOL) could hurt them easily- I've also met a young teenage girl barely a green belt, whom took her training so seriously that she saved herself from a much older MALE whom was trying to really hurt she and her friend. The male was older, larger, and she managed to get herself out of the water he was holding her under and scare him enough to send he and his frriends running after "defending herself".
Woman rock- and knowing that we have these "strtucture" differences, and other differences, only causes us to train harder, with our hearts in our wrists, (so to speak) and come out punching and kicking as well as the next guy. (Men are cool too. no offense)
just MHOpinions here-
watch that movie too- it's really cool-
K
