One can only allow it to use the human organism as a vessel, by opening the gate between heaven and earth, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah... I'm with ya...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Oops! Guess not!otherwise known as the mind.
Why meditate?
Moderator: Available
Why meditate?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SEAN C:
One can only allow it to use the human organism as a vessel, by opening the gate between heaven and earth, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah... I'm with ya...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
One can only allow it to use the human organism as a vessel, by opening the gate between heaven and earth, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah... I'm with ya...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why meditate?
Joe
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Actually that's what the old stories used to say about the eager student who wanted to train from the great master.
Truthfully, I had a friend (early 1980s) who practiced Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut who was a medical student at UVa (Eric Yee). Great guy who did a great long sword form! He used to study his medical material for long periods of time in the most obscenely deep martial postures. Talk about multi-tasking!
Sean C
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In all seriousness though, I have no problem with a "concept" of chi that is based on imagery and not on something physical or measurable. If it helps you get the job done, then it is a useful concept. So in the end, we may agree.
- Bill
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And I always thought this was hazing used to weed out the insincere!Holding of postures, commonly called "Zhuan Zhuang" in Chinese, for varying lengths of time is common in Chinese martial arts...Posture training is often overlooked when discussing martial meditation.
Actually that's what the old stories used to say about the eager student who wanted to train from the great master.Truthfully, I had a friend (early 1980s) who practiced Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut who was a medical student at UVa (Eric Yee). Great guy who did a great long sword form! He used to study his medical material for long periods of time in the most obscenely deep martial postures. Talk about multi-tasking!
Sean C
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
It isn't bioelectricity, because if it was then it would have been measured long ago. Researchers routinely measure electrical events in the human body on the order of microvolts (1 x 10^-6 volts). We regularly pick up the local AM radio stations on the strip chart pens, but never have we seen something that wasn't explained by classical biophysics. As a biomedical engineer with mathematical and electrical engineering training, I should know. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteChi, life energy, bioelectromagnetic force, whatever you want to call it, it's there.
Well then your bases are safely covered.You can't suggest it because if you do, you will use language. You can't desire it because it's already there. You can only allow it, by opening the mind to what it can't explain with language/logic.
In all seriousness though, I have no problem with a "concept" of chi that is based on imagery and not on something physical or measurable. If it helps you get the job done, then it is a useful concept. So in the end, we may agree.
- Bill
Why meditate?
"never have we seen something that wasn't explained by classical biophysics"
Well, how could you, when when using a machine that was built to register forces that are seen in classical biophysics?
You're right though, whatever works, works.
Panther,
You're a cool dude! I'm still waiting for more thoughts on my other thread though. You said there were a bunch, remember? 
[This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited October 03, 2000).]
Well, how could you, when when using a machine that was built to register forces that are seen in classical biophysics?
You're right though, whatever works, works.
Panther,
You're a cool dude!
I'm still waiting for more thoughts on my other thread though. You said there were a bunch, remember? [This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited October 03, 2000).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why meditate?
Sean C
The only forces I worry about in martial arts are the ones that knock me on my butt. The only forces I worry about in life are the ones that can make the light bulb shine or the car go. I can explain all those forces. Everything else I don't worry about because it has no concrete value. And I've never met an "empty force" that knocked me on my butt... It's a mind thing (to use some vernacular).
I don't want to turn this thread into a chi war. At the same time, I believe the distinctions are important. Sometimes we do things in meditation that have no real basis in physical reality. And yet, people use these practices and concepts to achieve specific, measurable ends. Every sport has a vernacular and even technical language that speaks of energy flow throughout the body. It's a concept that is useful on a qualitative basis because it's way too difficult to be practical on a quantitative one to the every-day practitioner. Ever read Persig's Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance? He talks about the "classical" vs. the "romantic" description of a motorcycle. I believe this touches on the idea. Both are valid points of view. And that book (thanks to my suggestion) became required reading (for a while) for entering freshmen in UVa engineering school.
I believe that problems arise when folks who lose things in the translation from Chinese to English try to attribute too much to this whole "chi" thing. We should appreciate it for what it is (a useful concept) and not make it what it isn't (something physical and measurable). And the whole area of meditation deals in this domain that borders between the tangible and the intangible.
Yes, yes, these are opinions. But I'm always willing to have my mind changed when the facts disagree with my perceptions.
- Bill
The only forces I worry about in martial arts are the ones that knock me on my butt. The only forces I worry about in life are the ones that can make the light bulb shine or the car go. I can explain all those forces. Everything else I don't worry about because it has no concrete value. And I've never met an "empty force" that knocked me on my butt... It's a mind thing (to use some vernacular).
I don't want to turn this thread into a chi war. At the same time, I believe the distinctions are important. Sometimes we do things in meditation that have no real basis in physical reality. And yet, people use these practices and concepts to achieve specific, measurable ends. Every sport has a vernacular and even technical language that speaks of energy flow throughout the body. It's a concept that is useful on a qualitative basis because it's way too difficult to be practical on a quantitative one to the every-day practitioner. Ever read Persig's Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance? He talks about the "classical" vs. the "romantic" description of a motorcycle. I believe this touches on the idea. Both are valid points of view. And that book (thanks to my suggestion) became required reading (for a while) for entering freshmen in UVa engineering school.
I believe that problems arise when folks who lose things in the translation from Chinese to English try to attribute too much to this whole "chi" thing. We should appreciate it for what it is (a useful concept) and not make it what it isn't (something physical and measurable). And the whole area of meditation deals in this domain that borders between the tangible and the intangible.
Yes, yes, these are opinions. But I'm always willing to have my mind changed when the facts disagree with my perceptions.
- Bill
Why meditate?
Sensei,
Yes, I read the book and it was beautiful. I've read alot of books that tried to solidify experience into words, some worked better than others. The quality of communication has no bearing on the reality of the experience. I'm apoligise if my thoughts come across as crude or overbearing, because that is not my intention.
I just like conversing with others.
You said something that caused me to come back to the computer.
Something about having my bases covered. I just want to clarify that what I wrote was really nothing more than a sincere attempt at sharing something that I have experienced. I could care less if anyone believes me, and I don't think it makes me important. I don't own chi, or have any power over anyone else because of the experiences I ALLOWED MYSELF TO HAVE.
I can't knock you on your butt.
You could knock me on my butt, however.
Basically, I don't give a flying f**k what anyone chooses to do with my thoughts, because they're totally harmless and full of nothing but fellowship. They're honest and sincere.
To get back to the bases, I have no bases to cover. When I share my thoughts, I do so because there is nothing to hide. No agenda, no profit, no power, no bullsh*t.
Just words, that might inspire someone out there to keep exploring the world that they live in.
Thanks.
P.s. I would be honored to share a drink and a laugh with you any day.
------------------
sean
Yes, I read the book and it was beautiful. I've read alot of books that tried to solidify experience into words, some worked better than others. The quality of communication has no bearing on the reality of the experience. I'm apoligise if my thoughts come across as crude or overbearing, because that is not my intention.
I just like conversing with others.
You said something that caused me to come back to the computer.
Something about having my bases covered. I just want to clarify that what I wrote was really nothing more than a sincere attempt at sharing something that I have experienced. I could care less if anyone believes me, and I don't think it makes me important. I don't own chi, or have any power over anyone else because of the experiences I ALLOWED MYSELF TO HAVE.
I can't knock you on your butt.
You could knock me on my butt, however.
Basically, I don't give a flying f**k what anyone chooses to do with my thoughts, because they're totally harmless and full of nothing but fellowship. They're honest and sincere.
To get back to the bases, I have no bases to cover. When I share my thoughts, I do so because there is nothing to hide. No agenda, no profit, no power, no bullsh*t.
Just words, that might inspire someone out there to keep exploring the world that they live in.
Thanks.
P.s. I would be honored to share a drink and a laugh with you any day.
------------------
sean
Why meditate?
Sean,
Bill has been consistent in his perspective about "chi" since I've known him. He is not putting you down. Just reiterating his position in a discussion that when from "meditation" to "chi." Kinda cool. That's just like meditation, ain't it.
For the record, I experienced on one occaison during meditation some sort of phenomenom... an aura of heat or energy around me. I didn't seek it nor has it occurred since. Like the thoughts and everything else in meditation, I noted it and let it go...
david
Bill has been consistent in his perspective about "chi" since I've known him. He is not putting you down. Just reiterating his position in a discussion that when from "meditation" to "chi." Kinda cool. That's just like meditation, ain't it.
For the record, I experienced on one occaison during meditation some sort of phenomenom... an aura of heat or energy around me. I didn't seek it nor has it occurred since. Like the thoughts and everything else in meditation, I noted it and let it go...
david
Why meditate?
I meditate to reach my higher self, to scence
my internal and external body. I meditate to get answers by getting rid of all the daily noise. Some say they even leave their body.
Just a few thoughts if they have not been added.
my internal and external body. I meditate to get answers by getting rid of all the daily noise. Some say they even leave their body.
Just a few thoughts if they have not been added.
Why meditate?
David,
Thank you for pointing out the defensiveness of my post.
Bill,
Thank you for allowing me to paricipate in these very interesting conversations. I do appreciate it.
To everyone,
This is a very good discussion.
Your white belt in life,
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sean
Thank you for pointing out the defensiveness of my post.
Bill,
Thank you for allowing me to paricipate in these very interesting conversations. I do appreciate it.
To everyone,
This is a very good discussion.
Your white belt in life,
------------------
sean
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
Why meditate?
We are only energy; as the molecules, atoms, protons....right down to those things they call quarks (?) Everything is an energy vibrating at different frequencies.
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why meditate?
Thank you, david, for clarifying things for Sean C.
We all love a good discussion, Sean. But that's no reason to think anyone here is attacking an individual. Some of the people here that I could have the most spirited discussions on this subject, like Evan, are the ones I have the greatest respect for.
Just remember that I am often ofFENsive, but I am rarely OFfensive. There is indeed a big difference. You should never feel threatened by my discussions, no matter who you are or what your background is. It is the nature of a researcher like me to jump in where there is disagreement and lack of clarity. That's how people like me learn. It's a good thing I am able to do that professionally.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 04, 2000).]
We all love a good discussion, Sean. But that's no reason to think anyone here is attacking an individual. Some of the people here that I could have the most spirited discussions on this subject, like Evan, are the ones I have the greatest respect for.
Just remember that I am often ofFENsive, but I am rarely OFfensive. There is indeed a big difference.
You should never feel threatened by my discussions, no matter who you are or what your background is. It is the nature of a researcher like me to jump in where there is disagreement and lack of clarity. That's how people like me learn. It's a good thing I am able to do that professionally. - Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 04, 2000).]
Why meditate?
This is definitely a lot more than I expected. Great!!!
Personally, I use meditation to gain back my concentration, mostly at work. When I was in school I would try and meditate before the finals. Basically just collecting my thoughts and focusing on the subject and trying to eliminate the distractions. However, I find active meditation to be more effective. After the karate practice I feel much more refreshed and energized than after lifting... I think by doing kata we tend to stay focused more than when sitting and lifting weights.
To take it a step further, should meditation be taught and practiced in the class (karate class)?
I greatly appreciate everyone's responses.
Vladimir.
Personally, I use meditation to gain back my concentration, mostly at work. When I was in school I would try and meditate before the finals. Basically just collecting my thoughts and focusing on the subject and trying to eliminate the distractions. However, I find active meditation to be more effective. After the karate practice I feel much more refreshed and energized than after lifting... I think by doing kata we tend to stay focused more than when sitting and lifting weights.
To take it a step further, should meditation be taught and practiced in the class (karate class)?
I greatly appreciate everyone's responses.
Vladimir.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why meditate?
Vladimir
That's a good question. From my personal perspective, I view this like any other activity that compliments the main agenda without necessarily being the agenda per se. For instance, it's very important to have strong trunk muscles (abdominals, obliques, hip flexors, lower back...) in martial arts. Sit-ups - or something like that - can really help you achieve that. So do you do sit-ups in the karate class? Do you do other exercises like knuckle pushups?
I have a core of things I like to do in a class, and I like to make other things that compliment the core available for folks to explore outside the main class. I always teach in a gymnasium that has good weight and aerobic equipment so that I don't have to waste a lot of time doing grunt work. Folks can pick and choose what they want to do on their own, and I can spend time teaching kata and bunkai and doing forearm/leg conditioning and sparring. Thus I personally would probably consider something like that as an outside activity that may involve special classes now and then. Certainly in the Uechi system, we put the "active meditation" thing into practice each and every time we do sanchin. But obviously from the discussion that has ensued, you can see that we barely scratch the surface with that activity. In a perfect world, I would have classes in meditation available to my students taught in the same gym. Unfortunately all we have now is a Hatha yoga instructor who is pi$$ed off at us because we have all the good time slots. Sigh...
- Bill
That's a good question. From my personal perspective, I view this like any other activity that compliments the main agenda without necessarily being the agenda per se. For instance, it's very important to have strong trunk muscles (abdominals, obliques, hip flexors, lower back...) in martial arts. Sit-ups - or something like that - can really help you achieve that. So do you do sit-ups in the karate class? Do you do other exercises like knuckle pushups?
I have a core of things I like to do in a class, and I like to make other things that compliment the core available for folks to explore outside the main class. I always teach in a gymnasium that has good weight and aerobic equipment so that I don't have to waste a lot of time doing grunt work. Folks can pick and choose what they want to do on their own, and I can spend time teaching kata and bunkai and doing forearm/leg conditioning and sparring. Thus I personally would probably consider something like that as an outside activity that may involve special classes now and then. Certainly in the Uechi system, we put the "active meditation" thing into practice each and every time we do sanchin. But obviously from the discussion that has ensued, you can see that we barely scratch the surface with that activity. In a perfect world, I would have classes in meditation available to my students taught in the same gym. Unfortunately all we have now is a Hatha yoga instructor who is pi$$ed off at us because we have all the good time slots. Sigh...
- Bill
Why meditate?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Unfortunately all we have now is a Hatha yoga instructor who is pi$$ed off at us because we have all the good time slots. Sigh...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Might I suggest an invitation to come and teach some beginner basics as one of your classes? The yoga instructor will get exposure and may very well increase the yoga class participation... and your students will get exposure to a different form of moving meditation...
Just a thought...
Unfortunately all we have now is a Hatha yoga instructor who is pi$$ed off at us because we have all the good time slots. Sigh...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Might I suggest an invitation to come and teach some beginner basics as one of your classes? The yoga instructor will get exposure and may very well increase the yoga class participation... and your students will get exposure to a different form of moving meditation...
Just a thought...
Why meditate?
And there you have it folks.
Of course one could just hypnotize oneself into believing that never happened.
Obviously the uke was so weak minded that if you told him he was a frog he would hop around and ribbit for the rest of his life.
Right on, Evan sensei.
It's just too bad that your explorations have kept you from learning how to hit people.
Okay, sorry for the sarcasm. Just trying to balance out some of the sarcasm that has been thrown at this stuff. After all, we're all just learning and following our own path.
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sean
[This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited October 04, 2000).]
Of course one could just hypnotize oneself into believing that never happened.
Obviously the uke was so weak minded that if you told him he was a frog he would hop around and ribbit for the rest of his life.
Right on, Evan sensei.
It's just too bad that your explorations have kept you from learning how to hit people.
Okay, sorry for the sarcasm. Just trying to balance out some of the sarcasm that has been thrown at this stuff. After all, we're all just learning and following our own path.
------------------
sean
[This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited October 04, 2000).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why meditate?
Evan
There now, you see? I’ve created this wonderful segue for you to go chi-ballistic on me! Actually I believe this no-touch knockout stuff can be done, but I’ve another (non-chi) idea about why it works. And check out something below…
Panther
That would be a good suggestion given a simple situation. Unfortunately this one has history. The yoga instructor (woman) involved even thwarted an effort for us to get our own Uechi nidan hired as a part-time employee for the gym because our nidan also wanted to teach yoga and healing touch... Squatter’s rights, or something like that.
I believe we'll just let this walking oxymoron stew on her own. Bad karma!
- Bill
There now, you see? I’ve created this wonderful segue for you to go chi-ballistic on me!
Actually I believe this no-touch knockout stuff can be done, but I’ve another (non-chi) idea about why it works. And check out something below…Panther
That would be a good suggestion given a simple situation. Unfortunately this one has history. The yoga instructor (woman) involved even thwarted an effort for us to get our own Uechi nidan hired as a part-time employee for the gym because our nidan also wanted to teach yoga and healing touch... Squatter’s rights, or something like that.
I believe we'll just let this walking oxymoron stew on her own. Bad karma!
- Bill
