Sanchin foot position

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:59 pm

I don't have too much to say in the forums on the Sanchin-stance forward-foot bent-in fighting, but what I do is real simple and yet most don’t get it. The procedure and effectiveness of it all is so simple I'm sometimes embarrassed to talk about it outside my dojo even.

The following is a common scenario from the years when I used to spar nightly as a TKD and Shotokan student:

I have several favorite sparring positions indigenous to how I used to spar most frequently: 1) fight from a deep horse stance, 2) fight from a low cat stance, or 3) fight from a monkey stance.

Let's look at #3 for a moment. A monkey stance, loosely defined, is having the body angled at 30-45 degrees to the opponent, feet spread about shoulder-distance apart and parallel [of course angled 45 degrees away from opponent], and knees comfortably bent. That says that forward foot is angled with respect to the opponent like in Sanchin, although the rear foot is not -- yet. , Also, turn the neck toward, but not directly facing the opponent so that one eye is closer to him than the other eye.

My left foot is forward because my dominant eye suggests I do this better right-handed -- something most want to overlook, ignore, or it passes over the heads like a fast wheel kick. The dominant eye dominates everything, much more so than the role that equal/unequal leg strengths play.

The Sanchin stance now becomes a dynamic stance for me with my options wide open. Here are only a few of them:

1) Frequently and commonly in TKD sparring [and when I did Shotokan], most-likely because of my monkey stance position I suspect [and when in low cat stance too], my opponents would try to circle around me in a counter-clockwise direction to prepare to launch his attack. As he would be moving to my left, I would counter his movement, first by torqueing my body to the left a little to track him, then pick up my rear foot and place it down. At that moment, not before nor after, I am in Sanchin stance and have all the powers of a Sanchin stance to launch a side-snap kick off the front leg. The rear leg is also ready to launch a perfect Uechi front snap-kick at that moment as well. Fact, ALL the Uechi tools are triggered and ready to go at that instant and a little before and little after the perfect Uechi stance dynamic position is being entered and exited.

In all this, the ball of the forward foot remains on the same spot on the floor. Just pivot on the ball of the forward foot as you are rotating CCW[ alternating hard and soft as you pivot]. That's all, nothing more and nothing less. Please look at some of my foot diagrams in my book, Uechi-ryu 2000. Saying this, what're in those foot charts should just jump off those pages and kick you in the face!

It's all right in the kata and no one ever sees it.

There are a few severe pitfalls to using the Uechi stance in sparring/fighting that are real killers, but I'm not going to get into that now. There are ways that it's easy to loose points in sparring as well as being deadly to the user of the stance in a fight.

2) Also in the sparring scenario above while dealing with foot stylists [works against Uechi stylists too] is the use of micro-shuffles forward and back, akin to Suai Shiao (sp). Fact, I recommend one study Suai Shiao to get a better understanding of Uechi.

3) Someone circles to my right, I change my strategy.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 10:37 pm

The Sanchin stance now becomes a dynamic stance for me with my options wide open. Here are only a few of them:
1) Frequently and commonly in TKD sparring [and when I did Shotokan], most-likely because of my monkey stance position I suspect [and when in low cat stance too], my opponents would try to circle around me in a counter-clockwise direction to prepare to launch his attack. As he would be moving to my left, I would counter his movement, first by torqueing my body to the left a little to track him, then pick up my rear foot and place it down. At that moment, not before nor after, I am in Sanchin stance and have all the powers of a Sanchin stance to launch a side-snap kick off the front leg. The rear leg is also ready to launch a perfect Uechi front snap-kick at that moment as well. Fact, ALL the Uechi tools are triggered and ready to go at that instant and a little before and little after the perfect Uechi stance dynamic position is being entered and exited.
In all this, the ball of the forward foot remains on the same spot on the floor. Just pivot on the ball of the forward foot as you are rotating CCW[ alternating hard and soft as you pivot]. That's all, nothing more and nothing less.
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I think I can visualize what you are describing. This is kind of the same as boxers settling down on punches. You assume the sanchin position to attack with power. You do not stand in a sanchin stance the through out the entire conflict, but choose to utilize other methods of movement and settle into sanchin to utilize it's power. I have moved this way (pivot and settle and it does keep your opponent from getting around your left hand and it keeps you in a sanchin position. Is this correct or have I missed your point.

I may be confused, won't be the last time.

When uechika talk about sparing out of sanchin are we
Staying in the stance all the time? Or are we utilizing the stance during the fight to set down on our strikes? (Not always in the stance but utilizing it to strike with as much power as possible when we get the opportunity to strike). The stance is assumed during the combat via steps or pivots?

2) Also in the sparring scenario above while dealing with foot stylists [works against Uechi stylists too] is the use of micro-shuffles forward and back, akin to Suai Shiao (sp). Fact, I recommend one study Suai Shiao to get a better understanding of Uechi.
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Allen I have never heard of Suai Shiao. Where can I learn more about this?
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Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited April 01, 2002).]

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 12:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

You assume the sanchin position to attack with power.

Right, but I let my opponent walk me into or through Sanchin. I can feel when I’m in the groove because I have stepped into a Sanchin stance over a million times. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

You do not stand in a sanchin stance the through out the entire conflict,

I see stand in a classic Sanchin stance w/arms in crane, but I don’t. To me, standing solidly in a Sanchin stance with arms in crane sets one’s self up to get nailed by a speedy attack. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

but choose to utilize other methods of movement and settle into sanchin to utilize it's power.

As one is pivoting and keenly attentive on the opponent, one can rapidly compress when an attack comes in and expand as the attack is recoiled, letting the leg or arm of the opponent as it moves back ****** your fist or foot right into him. Retracting your own leg back into a crane when you sense something coming covers you, and if the supporting leg is bent enough, when you get hit you can learn to trigger yourself to spring up. When the connect is made you just lift up [off both feet like a spring] and go back. Sorry, I ot more into it than I intended and went way farther than answering just the question, but it’s a move I’ve played out a lot. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I have moved this way (pivot and settle and it does keep your opponent from getting around your left hand and it keeps you in a sanchin position. Is this correct or have I missed your point.

That’s it. You are never always in Sanchin and you are never always out of it either, rather you’re continually moving in and out of it, but the smaller steps you can take with the rear foot keeps you closer to it. Your opponent sets the pace for that, and you always have to be ready to strike back instantly. If he reverses back the other way, there are several things going for you. One often there is ample time to switch into the other Sanchin stance if you are so predisposed, or the fact that your forward foot is bent in will help you change direction quicker as you unwind the little torque on the forward leg.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The stance is assumed during the combat via steps or pivots?

Either or both, whatever fits; whatever you feel comfortable in. One thing that is interesting is if you are facing someone straight-on in say a natural stance with your arms in crane, and he moves to your left, try pivoting in the direction he is going, but pivot only at the waist. Keep your elbows in Sanchin. Make good tight fists. While pivoting at the waist pivot your shoulders so that your forearms and fists are moving to the left while keeping the elbows right where they are. Rotate your fists a little until they feel comfortable with the outside of the forearms facing outward. Note this as Paragraph 2.

You haven’t moved your rear foot (if you pivot to the left your right foot becomes the rear one). They might feel a little locked up and you’re not in Sanchin -- yet. This is a good side-thrust kick position if you have decent stretch. However, lifting up and then moving the rear foot puts your feet into a neat Sanchin position. You can retard the foot movement or move it as you start or to start the waist pivot first, it’s all up to you and your opponent and the timing of the whole sequence is an on-the-fly decision of the moment and changes.

There’s more to it, but that’s all I’ve got time for this evening.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Allen I have never heard of Suai Shiao. Where can I learn more about this?

(sp) means I may not have gotten the spelling right, and launched a few empty searches before I did my previous riposte, but couldn’t find any. Suai Shiao, as I understand it is a Chinese martial arts system practiced by palace guards. Which palace? Which Dynasty? Take your pick because I really don’t know. Because these guards wore heavy armor they developed small Sanchin-like shuffle-steps. A friend of one of my TKD students invited his friend, who was a practitioner of that art over after I closed he dojang in Chicagoland a few times, and we traded off a few techniques. Moves were similar to Uechi although I forgot most except for that tiny shuffle-step which I adopted almost immediately.

Suai Shiao is not too popular if I couldn’t find anything on it, which suggests it’s a closed style like Uechi used to be and they don’t advertise.

Paragraph 2 revisited: Remember the part where we twisted at the waist but kept the feet firmly implanted? Well, either keep fists or open your hands into nukites, the right palm facing up and the left palm facing down. You can move your forward leg forward into a deep L-stance (or back stance) Just like a Uechi stance but with the left foot forward (a classical TKD stance, right?) or lift your forward foot up with just the toes touching the floor (Uechi cat stance, right?). Well, if you can move into them from a Sanchin stance with ease, then you can move back [or forward into a nut-protecting jam] into a Sanchin stance with the same ease.

That’s some of how I used the Sanchin stance when actively sparring, and it took a lot of people off guard.

I don't think of any stance as static, except to freeze in that stance on occasion, but then it only appears to be static because my mind is already moving me out of it.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

KB · Post by KB » Wed Apr 03, 2002 2:55 pm

Would it be fair to summarize the original question of the Sanchin foot position thus?

As a beginner, the front foot should point inwards, in order to faclitate stability and to discourage splaying the foot, thereby exposing the groin and the inside of the leg. Once the feeling for the correct position has been internalized, the practitioner may, if he/she wishes, assume a more "natural",less pigeon-toed foot postion.

If the above statement is about right, it has, to my knowledge, never actually been made explicit. Had it been, the drop out rate amongst Uechi-Ryu students, to which Van Canna Sensei refers in a previous post, might have been reduced. Who knows?

Regards,

KB

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 5:16 am

KB

First of all, I used to have a dear friend with the initals "KB." I don't need to know your name here, but the initials bring back good memories.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As a beginner, the front foot should point inwards, in order to faclitate stability and to discourage splaying the foot, thereby exposing the groin and the inside of the leg. Once the feeling for the correct position has been internalized, the practitioner may, if he/she wishes, assume a more "natural",less pigeon-toed foot postion.

One might say that, KB. HOWEVER... I really hate the idea of thinking of turning your front foot in. Rather it really is an equal internal rotation of BOTH legs in their respective hip sockets while pelvis is tucked under. And with toes or ball of foot touching, we are really rotating the heels out from an external perspective.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

If the above statement is about right, it has, to my knowledge, never actually been made explicit. Had it been, the drop out rate amongst Uechi-Ryu students, to which Van Canna Sensei refers in a previous post, might have been reduced. Who knows?

I'm always careful about interpreting and overinterpreting what Van says. Sometimes he just wants to cattle-prod your brain and make you think. And I'm also very careful about attributing any aspect of a karate system to dropout rate. I think the primary drivers of such are the initial quality of interest of the student and the quality of the teacher/teaching. Most martial arts systems are on firm footing (Sorry...bad pun, I know). It's the teachers and practitioners that mess them up.

KB, I think your questions are important. But you must realize that sanchin kata is largely a static exercise, and sanchin application is largely active and dynamic. Think about what the key elements are of the stance. Then think about how one can be in constant (leg) motion, and still be working within those basic principles. Real fights are very fluid affairs, and they often don't last very long. They also often start in the very opening (natural stance) position of sanchin kata, where one first tucks the pelvis under and pulls the shoulders down. That - in my book - is where you start applying the principles of sanchin both in kata and in real life.

On the dynamic end of things, Allen came up with an absolutely beautiful example with his tracking of an opponent when they attempt to turn the corner. It is so simple! Another element of hip rotation is the concept of loading and pre-stretching. The real power practitioners in martial arts learn to use many, many degrees of freedom of motion in a simple thrust or kick. It isn't about bench press strength, it is about summation and even synergy of joint forces. The hip rotation is just another one of those elements that can be used. As a simple example, try forward (not vertical) hip THRUSTING (not striking) off the front knee. You cannot do it (in either the classic crane or the Thai boxer roundhouse) without first rotating the legs IN and then rotating them out upon thrust. Now if you add that motion to the simple back leg knee thrust in seisan kata (or a classic Thai boxer roundhouse knee), now you've got yourself a first class body crushing technique. Add a grab and a pull to the motion and you are guaranteed to knock the wind out of them or even break a rib from a lateral approach. Each little element you add to the whole motion gives it more oomph, and they often work together in beautiful synergy.

In my book, KB, we Uechi fighters do not fight like granite statues ready to be beaten. We take the skeleton of the principles of sanchin and add on all the fun we want. Sometimes by the time you are done, the untrained eye cannot see the sanchin under the flesh. But it can be there, even when we are constantly moving.

- Bill