cont,
TRACKING THE TIGER
Whilst Hu Xing Quan can be traced back to the southern Shaolin Temple at Quangzhou,the actual originator of this style currently remains unknown.Conclusive evidence only takes us as far back as the great Master zhou chi ho who is said to have been taught Tiger Boxing by one of the southern shaolin monks.
Master Zhou Chi Ho was the master of Uechi Kanbun, an okinawan from the village of motobu who later created Uechi-ryu karate -do as a result of his Tiger training.
Having studied southern Shaolin Tiger for a decade [1897-1907]the thirty year old okinawan relocated to Nansoue a village roughly five hundred kilometres south-west of Fuzhou .Here he taught Tiger Boxing as one of the priviliged non -Chinese to teach Wu Shu in China .
That was untill of the unfortunate incident two years later ,mentioned in paragraph five of this article .As well as teaching Uechi Kanbun Zhou Chi Ho taught a man named Jing Shi Tian [I did take the opportunity to ask the FWA whether or not Jing Shi Tian knew Uechi Kanbun ,but unfortunately they were unable to advise me upon this.]
In years to come Jing Shi Tian taught Liu Bao Tong who went on to be a Master of Tiger ,living to the ripe old age of ninety .During his long career as a Wu Shu practioner ,Master Liu taught many students including one young man named Chang Tian Si . That was back in the 1950's,now almost fourty years later ,Chang Tian Si continues his practice whilst teaching the art as a member of Fuzhou 's recently established martial arts associatian .
But this is not a full time position ,six days per week [mon -sat ] Master Chang works at a factory , taking leave from his work only when he is required to instruct .
As a recent visitor to the city of Fuzhou I had requested to learn a few of the 'basics'pertaining to this intriguing and little known style Chang Tai Si a third generation Tiger Master was to be my teacher for the next four weeks I was to immerse my self totally in into this fascinating system of southern style Wu Shu .
shu shi wa's nephew???
Moderator: Available
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont
Although fuzhou has a high concentration of Wu Shu masters,the degree of interest shown within this field of study has never been that impressive.
The cultural revolution which spanned no less than one decade[from 1966-1976]and which forced many schools into closure for a lenghty period of seven years,did stimulate public interest,leading to a drastic increse in the number of practicing students. However,at this time the teaching of Wu Shu was strictly prohibited and so all those classes which did not cease immediately went 'underground; and as was more likely for large groups to be discovered rather than small groups many individuals were simply denied the opportunity to learn.
Normally a quiet little 'town; fuzhou has never really seen that much violence and hostility,but then during the cultural revolution that image changed somewhat providing Mr Chang with a few rare occasions where his twenty years of tiger training was put to the test . However ,such incidents never lasted more than a few seconds and did not require severe measures of defence ;having been thrown to the floor or seized in one of the 'tiger' master's vice-lke grips , this would not fail to discourage even the most determined of aggressors from taking the encounter any further.
Facially,Master Chang appears [and is ] both friendly and passive , whilst when he walks he posseses an air of purpose and determination.Interesting to note that in both voice and mannerism [especially hand gestures ]did Mr Chang share characteristics befitting those of a well contented cat ,but when it came to his demonstating a form or a technique of self-defence whilst retaining that friendly grace his ability and strength would unmistakably shine through .
It was qualites such as these which earnt Master Chang the nickname "Fuzhou Tiger".
------------------
max ainley
Although fuzhou has a high concentration of Wu Shu masters,the degree of interest shown within this field of study has never been that impressive.
The cultural revolution which spanned no less than one decade[from 1966-1976]and which forced many schools into closure for a lenghty period of seven years,did stimulate public interest,leading to a drastic increse in the number of practicing students. However,at this time the teaching of Wu Shu was strictly prohibited and so all those classes which did not cease immediately went 'underground; and as was more likely for large groups to be discovered rather than small groups many individuals were simply denied the opportunity to learn.
Normally a quiet little 'town; fuzhou has never really seen that much violence and hostility,but then during the cultural revolution that image changed somewhat providing Mr Chang with a few rare occasions where his twenty years of tiger training was put to the test . However ,such incidents never lasted more than a few seconds and did not require severe measures of defence ;having been thrown to the floor or seized in one of the 'tiger' master's vice-lke grips , this would not fail to discourage even the most determined of aggressors from taking the encounter any further.
Facially,Master Chang appears [and is ] both friendly and passive , whilst when he walks he posseses an air of purpose and determination.Interesting to note that in both voice and mannerism [especially hand gestures ]did Mr Chang share characteristics befitting those of a well contented cat ,but when it came to his demonstating a form or a technique of self-defence whilst retaining that friendly grace his ability and strength would unmistakably shine through .
It was qualites such as these which earnt Master Chang the nickname "Fuzhou Tiger".
------------------
max ainley
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
TIGER FORMS
Many martial arts boast a large number of patterns [sets kata] some containing as many as fifty routines.Southern style Tiger Boxing comprises of just six.
Although I wasn't to learn all of these forms [nor had I expected to or had any desire to -not in a month any way ]I naturally requested that I be permitted to see them , just so that I could form an overall impression of this system.
This request I was granted although none too hurriedly as my teacher was somewhat reluctant to expose the complete system to me .
Casting my mind back I recall being very impressed with the last form which he didn't show me untill my final day of training and which he didn't really want to show me in the first place!The name of this form was 'KUNGUA'which means 'Cutting Diagram'and it had impressed me because of its practicality and dynamic body movements .
Of these six forms my month of training permitted me to learn [the first]three.In my opinion these were the three most involved patterns of the syllabus, and quite by chance not only were they the forms Master Chang had, himself ,wanted to teach me [although I was able to choose for myself]but were also the very forms I had personally selected .Had time permitted I would have liked to have learn t'KUNGUA; However ,sometimes one can try to absorb too much and so all along I had resigned myself to the fact 'KUNGUA 'would have to wait until next time .
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
Many martial arts boast a large number of patterns [sets kata] some containing as many as fifty routines.Southern style Tiger Boxing comprises of just six.
Although I wasn't to learn all of these forms [nor had I expected to or had any desire to -not in a month any way ]I naturally requested that I be permitted to see them , just so that I could form an overall impression of this system.
This request I was granted although none too hurriedly as my teacher was somewhat reluctant to expose the complete system to me .
Casting my mind back I recall being very impressed with the last form which he didn't show me untill my final day of training and which he didn't really want to show me in the first place!The name of this form was 'KUNGUA'which means 'Cutting Diagram'and it had impressed me because of its practicality and dynamic body movements .
Of these six forms my month of training permitted me to learn [the first]three.In my opinion these were the three most involved patterns of the syllabus, and quite by chance not only were they the forms Master Chang had, himself ,wanted to teach me [although I was able to choose for myself]but were also the very forms I had personally selected .Had time permitted I would have liked to have learn t'KUNGUA; However ,sometimes one can try to absorb too much and so all along I had resigned myself to the fact 'KUNGUA 'would have to wait until next time .
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
SANCHIN
My training began with a highly demanding form which is the foundation for Southern Tiger.
Its common name is 'SEISAN'[not to be confused with the goju -ryu kata of the same name]which means thirteen movements; but its more official title is 'SANCHIN ;which translates as 'three battles'.
Whereas in some ways it was not dissimlar to the 'Sanchin Kata' of okinawan Goju-Ryu there were a number of ways in which it was quite different .For example ,the powerful hand techniques were mainly open-handed in this Tiger pattern wereas the 'Sanchin Kata'which Miyagi Chojun sensei taught as the foundation of Okinawan Goju-Ryu comprises of almost one hundred per-cent'closed hands.
Initially,Master Kanryo Higaonna[the teacher of Miyagi Chojun sensei] had learnt
'Sanchin' as a 'open hand form during his fifteen year stay in Fuzhou city but then,having returned to his native okinawa,he decided yo close the hands ,and as such it was taught to Master Miyagi.
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
My training began with a highly demanding form which is the foundation for Southern Tiger.
Its common name is 'SEISAN'[not to be confused with the goju -ryu kata of the same name]which means thirteen movements; but its more official title is 'SANCHIN ;which translates as 'three battles'.
Whereas in some ways it was not dissimlar to the 'Sanchin Kata' of okinawan Goju-Ryu there were a number of ways in which it was quite different .For example ,the powerful hand techniques were mainly open-handed in this Tiger pattern wereas the 'Sanchin Kata'which Miyagi Chojun sensei taught as the foundation of Okinawan Goju-Ryu comprises of almost one hundred per-cent'closed hands.
Initially,Master Kanryo Higaonna[the teacher of Miyagi Chojun sensei] had learnt
'Sanchin' as a 'open hand form during his fifteen year stay in Fuzhou city but then,having returned to his native okinawa,he decided yo close the hands ,and as such it was taught to Master Miyagi.
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxwell ainley:
Initially,Master Kanryo Higaonna[the teacher of Miyagi Chojun sensei] had learnt
'Sanchin' as a 'open hand form during his fifteen year stay in Fuzhou city but then,having returned to his native okinawa,he decided yo close the hands ,and as such it was taught to Master Miyagi.
max ainley<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've heard a different version of this story, in which Higa(shi)onna both learned and taught Sanchin open-hand and that it was Miyagi who subsequently changed it to closed-hand while he was developing Goju Ryu.
------------------
Glenn
Initially,Master Kanryo Higaonna[the teacher of Miyagi Chojun sensei] had learnt
'Sanchin' as a 'open hand form during his fifteen year stay in Fuzhou city but then,having returned to his native okinawa,he decided yo close the hands ,and as such it was taught to Master Miyagi.
max ainley<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've heard a different version of this story, in which Higa(shi)onna both learned and taught Sanchin open-hand and that it was Miyagi who subsequently changed it to closed-hand while he was developing Goju Ryu.
------------------
Glenn
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
Hi Glenn,
I too was under the impression that Miyagi sensei made the changes, and there is in fact two Sanchin forms the Higashonna open-handed version that as the turn plus the natural breathing.
And the closed-fist version with the Ibuki breathing and the straight forward linear pattern .
But Miyazato Eiichi Sensei ,said in a interview that his teacher Miyagi Sensei only changed the way we come to yoi,at the begining of a kata .
max ainley
I too was under the impression that Miyagi sensei made the changes, and there is in fact two Sanchin forms the Higashonna open-handed version that as the turn plus the natural breathing.
And the closed-fist version with the Ibuki breathing and the straight forward linear pattern .
But Miyazato Eiichi Sensei ,said in a interview that his teacher Miyagi Sensei only changed the way we come to yoi,at the begining of a kata .
max ainley
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
shu shi wa's nephew???
Zhang Tian Ci, the Tiger school representative at our 1984 camp, supposedly was a distant relative of Shu and therefore, probably demonstrated what Shu taught.
Ci demonstrated a closed fist version of Sanchin that looked a lot more like Goju than Uechi!
Video tape can be found in the store (camp '83-85) Sorry for that shamless plug!
------------------
GEM
Ci demonstrated a closed fist version of Sanchin that looked a lot more like Goju than Uechi!
Video tape can be found in the store (camp '83-85) Sorry for that shamless plug!
------------------
GEM
shu shi wa's nephew???
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxwell ainley:
I too was under the impression that Miyagi sensei made the changes, and there is in fact two Sanchin forms the Higashonna open-handed version that as the turn plus the natural breathing.
And the closed-fist version with the Ibuki breathing and the straight forward linear pattern .
But Miyazato Eiichi Sensei ,said in a interview that his teacher Miyagi Sensei only changed the way we come to yoi,at the begining of a kata .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
plus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
Ci demonstrated a closed fist version of Sanchin that looked a lot more like Goju than Uechi! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well these just threw a monkey-wrench into what I thought I knew about Sanchin history! That's the trouble with the internet...it's next to impossible to have a nice, neat, tidy, organized view of anything anymore!
------------------
Glenn
I too was under the impression that Miyagi sensei made the changes, and there is in fact two Sanchin forms the Higashonna open-handed version that as the turn plus the natural breathing.
And the closed-fist version with the Ibuki breathing and the straight forward linear pattern .
But Miyazato Eiichi Sensei ,said in a interview that his teacher Miyagi Sensei only changed the way we come to yoi,at the begining of a kata .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
plus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
Ci demonstrated a closed fist version of Sanchin that looked a lot more like Goju than Uechi! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well these just threw a monkey-wrench into what I thought I knew about Sanchin history! That's the trouble with the internet...it's next to impossible to have a nice, neat, tidy, organized view of anything anymore!
------------------
Glenn
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
Cont,
During my stay in fuzhou I was fortunate enough to see a number of Wu shu systems ,each possessing their own interpretations of 'Sanchin'.It appeared that 'Sanchin' was inherant to all the styles of Wu Shu to which I was being exposed,but whilst some versions appeared rather flowery [and that is not to be interpretated in any derogatory sense]utilizing multi-directional hand and foot movements .The 'Sanchins'were quite straight-forward choosing to adhere to the linear pattern prevalent within the Sanchin of Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate-Do.
Areas were most of these patterns shared common ground included sustained tension , and a posture almost identical to 'Sanchin Dachi'- two characteristics essential to the practice of Miyagi Sensei's rigourous adaptation.But whilst many of these patterns were intrinsically the same each differed in terms of overall duration,degree of focus ,and speed of movement .
One factor , however,which seemed common to all of these forms was the absence of loud breathing techniques.The loud 'ibuki'breathing of Goju-Ryu which has become this styles trademark, as indeed has Kata Sanchin ; did not feature in any of these Wu Shu styles ,which may have had something to do with a point which as found its way into print on more than one recent occasion,and that is the fact that the loud ,raucous,and menacing diaphragmatic'Ibiki'was only used during ones earier years of martial arts training.
As a way of monitoring and determining a students progress the Master wuold teach this dramatic method of respiration only until his student was proficent enough to replace this with the quieter method of breath-control.
These demonstrations were being performed by well-established and time honoured Masters and so it made perfect sense that I should be observing their Wu Shu at a very high level of exellence,so maybe these systems contained the other side to Sanchin ,maybe not . This is an interesting consideration which I shall, upon my return to Fuzhou explore in detail.
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
During my stay in fuzhou I was fortunate enough to see a number of Wu shu systems ,each possessing their own interpretations of 'Sanchin'.It appeared that 'Sanchin' was inherant to all the styles of Wu Shu to which I was being exposed,but whilst some versions appeared rather flowery [and that is not to be interpretated in any derogatory sense]utilizing multi-directional hand and foot movements .The 'Sanchins'were quite straight-forward choosing to adhere to the linear pattern prevalent within the Sanchin of Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate-Do.
Areas were most of these patterns shared common ground included sustained tension , and a posture almost identical to 'Sanchin Dachi'- two characteristics essential to the practice of Miyagi Sensei's rigourous adaptation.But whilst many of these patterns were intrinsically the same each differed in terms of overall duration,degree of focus ,and speed of movement .
One factor , however,which seemed common to all of these forms was the absence of loud breathing techniques.The loud 'ibuki'breathing of Goju-Ryu which has become this styles trademark, as indeed has Kata Sanchin ; did not feature in any of these Wu Shu styles ,which may have had something to do with a point which as found its way into print on more than one recent occasion,and that is the fact that the loud ,raucous,and menacing diaphragmatic'Ibiki'was only used during ones earier years of martial arts training.
As a way of monitoring and determining a students progress the Master wuold teach this dramatic method of respiration only until his student was proficent enough to replace this with the quieter method of breath-control.
These demonstrations were being performed by well-established and time honoured Masters and so it made perfect sense that I should be observing their Wu Shu at a very high level of exellence,so maybe these systems contained the other side to Sanchin ,maybe not . This is an interesting consideration which I shall, upon my return to Fuzhou explore in detail.
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
-
Rick Wilson
shu shi wa's nephew???
Max:
Just wanted to say I am really enjoying this thread.
Thank you,
Rick
Just wanted to say I am really enjoying this thread.
Thank you,
Rick
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
Thanks Rick,
I am glad you are enjoying it,your remark gives a booster to me ,thanks Rick.
I consider Kanbun travelling with Shu sensei would have been exposed to various systems ,that used Sanchin .Kanbun also may have been well versed in some of these versions of Sanchin ,but never taught them .
Max ainley
------------------
max ainley
I am glad you are enjoying it,your remark gives a booster to me ,thanks Rick.
I consider Kanbun travelling with Shu sensei would have been exposed to various systems ,that used Sanchin .Kanbun also may have been well versed in some of these versions of Sanchin ,but never taught them .
Max ainley
------------------
max ainley
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
shu shi wa's nephew???
Glenn and Max
Everything that is posted here about the article suggests that the closed fists and ibuki breathing weren't of Chinese origin. Or if they were, then they were training aids.
Interestingly enough, I have evolved to doing dynamic tension and ibuki breathing type movements in my class as warmups for the upper body. I was having lots of shoulder problems - mostly tendonitis with lots of shoulder clicking and crunching. I needed to get more blood to my tendons before doing workouts, and doing this kind of work seemed to be the right thing to do. I generally stand in a horse stance (exercising my legs) while doing a number of straight forward, overhead, and shoulder rotating motions.
It worked!
I now do these as "warm ups" all the time.
Hmmm... History repeating itself? An individual's "warmups" evolving to sacred ritual? Understand - I still do my sanchin the open-handed, relaxed way (but after a proper warmup).
Thought I'd mention that.
- Bill
Everything that is posted here about the article suggests that the closed fists and ibuki breathing weren't of Chinese origin. Or if they were, then they were training aids.
Interestingly enough, I have evolved to doing dynamic tension and ibuki breathing type movements in my class as warmups for the upper body. I was having lots of shoulder problems - mostly tendonitis with lots of shoulder clicking and crunching. I needed to get more blood to my tendons before doing workouts, and doing this kind of work seemed to be the right thing to do. I generally stand in a horse stance (exercising my legs) while doing a number of straight forward, overhead, and shoulder rotating motions.
It worked!
I now do these as "warm ups" all the time.
Hmmm... History repeating itself? An individual's "warmups" evolving to sacred ritual? Understand - I still do my sanchin the open-handed, relaxed way (but after a proper warmup).
Thought I'd mention that.
- Bill
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
Bill,
It's nice to hear you are getting a lot of benifit from your "IBUKI" breathing and dynamic tension , Bill do you practice the full goju sanchin too?I wish you well with the shoulder .
cont,
SAN SAN HU
The second form I learnt was called "SAN SAN HU" which means "Tiger Ascending The Hill".This again was the more commonly used name,its more offical title being "Si Mong" which means "Four Gates" or "Four Directions". Almost four times as long as " Sanchin". San San Hu has a total of fourty eight movements and so exists as the longest form of this Southern System.
It is also quite involved ,containing a host of techniques such as: fore-arm blocks; palm-heel strikes ;lower level punches;digital strikes;[in karate nukite or spear -hand]; knife-hand strikes ;wrist blocks; low frontal kicks ;and grabbing ,tearing gouging and clawing techniques.
San San Hu exists as one of three forms collectively known as "San Sei Rui" "San San Hu" is refered to as "Upper San Sei Rui" whilst the other two are "A San Hu"[ middle sanseirui]and "Dung San Hu"[lower sanserui].
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
It's nice to hear you are getting a lot of benifit from your "IBUKI" breathing and dynamic tension , Bill do you practice the full goju sanchin too?I wish you well with the shoulder .
cont,
SAN SAN HU
The second form I learnt was called "SAN SAN HU" which means "Tiger Ascending The Hill".This again was the more commonly used name,its more offical title being "Si Mong" which means "Four Gates" or "Four Directions". Almost four times as long as " Sanchin". San San Hu has a total of fourty eight movements and so exists as the longest form of this Southern System.
It is also quite involved ,containing a host of techniques such as: fore-arm blocks; palm-heel strikes ;lower level punches;digital strikes;[in karate nukite or spear -hand]; knife-hand strikes ;wrist blocks; low frontal kicks ;and grabbing ,tearing gouging and clawing techniques.
San San Hu exists as one of three forms collectively known as "San Sei Rui" "San San Hu" is refered to as "Upper San Sei Rui" whilst the other two are "A San Hu"[ middle sanseirui]and "Dung San Hu"[lower sanserui].
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
I agree with Rick...thanks for taking the time to post this article Max!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxwell ainley:
The lineage;
chou tze ho
Jing shi tian
Lui bao tong
Chang tian si
Simon lailey was taught three forms in this article, by Chang tian si a third generation tiger master in fuzhou. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
Zhang Tian Ci, the Tiger school representative at our 1984 camp, supposedly was a distant relative of Shu and therefore, probably demonstrated what Shu taught.
Ci demonstrated a closed fist version of Sanchin that looked a lot more like Goju than Uechi!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So are these two the same guy...i.e., Simon's teacher in Fuzhou in the 1990s was at summer camp in 1984?
------------------
Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited August 26, 2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxwell ainley:
The lineage;
chou tze ho
Jing shi tian
Lui bao tong
Chang tian si
Simon lailey was taught three forms in this article, by Chang tian si a third generation tiger master in fuzhou. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
Zhang Tian Ci, the Tiger school representative at our 1984 camp, supposedly was a distant relative of Shu and therefore, probably demonstrated what Shu taught.
Ci demonstrated a closed fist version of Sanchin that looked a lot more like Goju than Uechi!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So are these two the same guy...i.e., Simon's teacher in Fuzhou in the 1990s was at summer camp in 1984?
------------------
Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited August 26, 2002).]
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
shu shi wa's nephew???
Possibly. Simon wasn't at the '84 camp and probably didn't see the video. I don't recall him mentioning Ci's name at our many get-to-gethers, but from the lineage mentioned, sure sounds like the same person.
------------------
GEM
------------------
GEM
