Rank Opinions or Opinions on Rank

[Stryke]

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To make another point a Kata is no more than a vague "combination" with several possible explanations.....in some systems a Kata is noticeably just a technique e.g. Judo.


* thats what a kata is a catalougue of technique , a template , which came first the man or the style ......


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Try standing in stance and punching a heavy bag...or time kata so that the punches land on a heavy bag, you will be very disappointed especially by a reverse punch..next try moving like a boxer and hit the bag...makes you wonder?


* This is my point , just much better put , this goes for most of the things we do In traditional karate , we fail to expand on the template expand explore for fear of doing something the wrong way < it`s not the technique wrong , it`s the training methodology , the traditional teaching method ........


Thanks for posting Jorvik , I`m sure you see where I`m coming from , Tradition deffinately has it`s place , but we need to seriously question what it`s for IMHO

2Green you said

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If I personally experienced no other benefits from Karate then being a tough fighter, I'd quit tomorrow.
No interest in just being that...I know lots of folks like that and have no desire to be like them.

This is a valid point , but could you list the benifits for me ? , and more specifically tell me how the system imparts them to you ? , for the sake of being argumentative training to be that fighter could probably teach you all those lessons , spirit , determination , humility etc , actually they can come from any activity in which you test yourself ...

And feel free to bring the I into the argument , thats what learnings all about , I`d love to share your experiences , and remember

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You know that opinions are like ..xxx... everyone has one!

Ive surely exposed mine , This is one of those threads , no offence intended or taken , Speak now or forever hold your peace

Stryke

[2Green]

OK: I had held off the specifics because who wants to hear my story, etc., but I owe it to the conversation to pass on what I've gained besides fighting ability (whatever measure of it).
Some of this may sound pollyanna or whatever but here goes.
I've been pretty much a loner all my life. No team sports (fear of letting down a team), actually no sports of any kind.
Artistic/intellectual pursuits, but a high-school and home dropout in mid-teens.Hey, it was the 60's.
I was never strong or fast, couldn't fight, always lived a very deferrential (to others, especially physically) lifestyle,and always just tried to get along, especially if a confrontation arose.
Always feared physical conflict.

Flash forward to 1998.
I'm sitting in a wheelchair in my doctor's office,I'm 47 years old, I can't stand up because my back is so twisted up. I realize that I need an activity besides biking which will see me into later life in some kind of physical shape.
See how perfectly Karate fits this picture?
As I started the training my fear of physical confrontation began to fade, I got involved in a group sistuation which was not a team, but a collection of solo efforts. I was pushed physically, my confidence grew, I got cocky like every new student.
The exercise, the posture and flexibility have been like a miracle cure.
I can kick over my head no problem (I'm 51 now) anytime, my posture is erect and balanced, no back pain at all,my fear of confrontation is not gone but tempered by reality.
I've learned the value of sticking with something long-term, met wonderful examples of very powerful yet gentle and warm human beings; people whom I aspire to be like, and gotten a new kind of humility which has replaced my previous "physical deferrence".
The concepts of the contemplative mind have given me a virtually un-upsettable mindset in my daily life, and I'm able to use that to let others lean on my "strength".
I don't feel the need to impress or impose my opinions on others as I did before, my Napoleon complex is well under control.
So now I sit in the driver's seat instead of the back seat, and I feel like the calm eye of the hurricane when chaos swirls around me.

Believe me there's more, but Karate has given me all these things.
And maybe now I CAN fight my way out of a wet paper bag.

Ok, you can put away the violins!
Hope that explains some of the specifics from my point of view.
NM

"It's one thing to not do something because you don't want to; it's another to not do something because you can't."
...(Peter Nero)

[jorvik]

Hey NM
I don't want to come across as some psycho-nutcase who beats people to death for a fun thing to do
I often fear that what I say will be misunderstood by people on a different wavelength.
MA's are controlled violence for the cerebrally inclined.....a cathartic release of aggressive energy......Smack the boss in the mouth
That's what it's about.........you may never need to use it ( which would be great............) but it doesn't explain the attraction.
I am in a different situation to you......I have battle injuries from following the MA's too much....an artificial hip .......I cannot do half of what I did.....but I will still do that half with more enthusiasum than before, and it becomes less, less technique.......my focus becomes more, I dwell on one punch, one block
I used to like the camaradarie of the Dojo, but the art itself means more to me now and I practise alone. After a time you find it is easier to do this, you don't have to justify what you are doing to anyone.. and it is just as enjoyable..maybe a form of meditation.

[LeeDarrow]

Rank - Important for reasons of respect, time-in-training and some specific accomplishments. Important for instructors (to an extent) to show experience in TEACHING as well as practicing. Important for reasons of understanding one's own history and the history of one's family, style and Art.

Kata - the encyclopedia of a style, molded into a cohesive whole that shows how the different techniques CAN flow together, not how they MUST flow together. Important for breathing, stamina, focus, concentration, balance and the understanding of the dynamics of power as traditionally taught. Important because it is meditation in motion and, properly taught and learned, can help one overcome the chemical cocktail. "The New comes from the Old" - Kung Fu'tze

Innovation - like in music or art, innovation and improvisation only becomes good with a firm grounding in the basics. Without knowing the basics, one cannot transcend them. That's why Bruce Lee studied so many different styles - to know the basics and then transcend them.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com

[Rick Wilson]

I just wanted to offer a thank you to all who have contributed so far. I am enjoying the posts and the discussion. I hope more will come forward with their opinions.

[KerryM]

Humn:
Receiving a "black-belt" or Dan rank- I believe is important because it shows your commitment to something. After that- I think it has become a "politicaly-important" system.

I think what is more important is the years and contrtibution you've spent practicing and teaching. I will say now- that mu opinion is completely and absolutely biased. No doubt- totally.

I won't get into why- but the quality- the ability to share with others- and for the simple fact that Kanbum spent three years learning Sanchin- (what rank was he after that?) is what is important.

I say politically important because in many places- you "need" the "rank"- to be able to certify black belts- to have one's opinion "considered" the actual rank or "degree" physicaly on paper seems to effect people more than the actual karate you perform. I think it's wrong.

But I do understand the "voiced" opinions of others- I see the validity. I know where everyone is coming from- and this post isn't meant to rile or offend anyone.

[Guest]

What is the opinion out there on rank?

1) Do you see rank as important?

Not really

2) Why (if you care to share)?

I'm not training to attain a pass mark in a test. I'm training to improve my fighting skills and to improve the condition of my body.

3) Did the rank of your instructor influence you choosing his school?

Nope but his skills and charismatic personality, and the quality of the other instructors kept me coming back.

4) Does rank make us more legitimate?

There's no rank in a boxing gym but it doesn't take long to figure who the skilled guys are and who's just starting out. It's pretty obvious in the dojo who the skilled folks are.

I've seen dojo's were rank is a joke, it's all about test fee's the belt means little.

I don't wear a gi so I don't wear a belt. If I do put on a gi I'll just use the one that comes with it.

Rank makes us feel better. And that can be a good thing it's positive feedback from folks you respect.


5) Could an association run without rank?

A large group of dojos doubt it, but a small dojo I'm sure would be no problem. I think the rank issue might creep up in tournaments or seminars when the host attempted to match folks up to provide the most challenging experience.

6) Would you train if no ranks were handed out?

Have been for some time now, it's not belts that we are searching for. That being said I suspect it might be easier to attract new training partners if I had a nice Okinawan certificate hanging on the wall. Might make it easier to find training space as well.

Laird

[Rick Wilson]

Kerry posted: "I won't get into why- but the quality- the ability to share with others- and for the simple fact that Kanbum spent three years learning Sanchin- (what rank was he after that?) is what is important. "

I like that statement. Sorry, I know I asked for opinions etc and really wasn’t going to enter into the discussion, but that paragraph summed it up for me. (When have I been able to stay out of a discussion?)

They didn't have ranks back then. It was the training that counted.

What changed? Did it just get too big?

[Stryke]

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What changed? Did it just get too big?d

* yes , basically , they decide that they couldnt give personal attention so they set rules and standards , when they did`nt even understand the monster they created ....... tradition ......

[M. Keller]

Hello everyone,

Interesting questions being brought up. Two things...

I have several friends who are kung fu practicitioners, and train at dojos where there is no rank. Instead, they have a family-like hierarchy, where the people who have put in the most time are the most respected, with the teacher as a grandfather figure of sorts.

At the UVA Uechi club, we often have new folks entering our classes who have previously trained in other sports (fencing, boxing, TKD, wu shu, etc). Barely a week ago, I saw a former boxer seriously take it to one of our core club people. So, rank (particularly at a beginner level) rarely represents fighting skill (though I have a feeling that this club person will be back next week with a vengeance ).

To be frank, after my dan test last summer, I felt thoroughly disappointed. When my father and I drove back from the bay, I sulked quite a bit. When he saw this, he asked why, and I told him that I didn't perform as well as I liked, and the whole test seemed rather anticlimactic. I have only recently begun to understand his response. He said that though I may not have felt good about the test, the candidates and I had put in the time and effort, and had demonstrated committment and spirit. I'm beginning to think that that, moreso than fighting prowess, is the essence of rank.

Best,

Mike

[f.Channell]

2 green,
Thanks for sharing your story, I've seen it happen before.
Thats what it's all about.
Improving your quality of life.

As far as rank goes......
I've read a lot about Jigoro Kano and really don't know why he started the colored rank system. I saw in one place that they wore colored belts of some type in competitive swimming in Japan and he may have come up with the idea from this. It also was originally given away more for skill than any time in grade. This is something that I frequently don't understand, a person can train and teach 6 days a week and still have to wait the same years in grade as someone who is a student and goes to 1-2 classes a week.
Or sometimes gets to test if he does a good job cleaning the dojo.
This kind of garbage makes me dislike the rank system somewhat.
Back prewar the Kodokan in Tokyo (Judo) had karate, aikido and other arts training somewhat side by side and this may be how the dan rank system spread to other arts.
If the rank gets in the way of your mind remaining open to new ideas from lower ranking students of your and other styles that's a shame.
Wear it proudly, but always be willing to strap on a white one once in a while. I always have a white one ready to go.
f.

[KerryM]

so if we all seem to feel close to the same way- why then do we act differently?

It seems to me, that if we all say- yeah rank/degree isn't as important as the quality and years spent in a dojo- yet then turn around and play the game of "oh you're "just"" a shodan- or in my case I heard "you're just an Ik-kyu" sc'use me but @#$% your rank/degree- let me see your Sanchin.

If Kanie said- let there be rank- then hey- let there be rank- but maybe we should look at our own personal definitions of rank before we discount someone "because" of it. OR lack of it. Then check those definitions with the "tradition" and make sure they still match up.

But other side of the coin- for those who've done the process and achieved some- let no one try to diminish your success and achievment- that'd be just as bad.

just a little guy's opinion here

[TMoore]

Practiced with Robert Galaone in Md. for four years .He kept all as white belts and finally tested for shodan At James Thompsons' dojo going from white to black in an afternoon. Seemed normal.
Terry Moore
Annapolis Md.

[Stryke]

2 green , thanks for sharing your experience , It`s great to hear peoples sucesses , put things in perspective ....

So from your post i guess what I see is that theres a great benifit in the inclusiveness and struture of a traditional system , hard to argue with that , everyone can improve at there own pace , thanks for the thoughts . am i on track ?

[miked]

Rick wrote:

"Sorry, I know I asked for opinions etc and really wasn’t going to enter into the discussion, but that paragraph summed it up for me. (When have I been able to stay out of a discussion?)

They didn't have ranks back then. It was the training that counted.

What changed? Did it just get too big?"

Rick, please correct me if I am wrong but didn't Uechi Kanbun receive menkyo from his instructor and isn't menkyo an indication of rank or at least an indication of an advanced skill set?

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with earning rank. There is a serious problem if rank is not appopriately earned or awarded.

The attainmnent of Dan rank marks a siginifcant event in one's life and is cherished by most, almost as muich as their anniversaries and birthdays.

Will any of you ever forget the day you earned Shodan? I can't imagine that I am the only one who has these memories.

In this society we really do not have a means of acknowledging a youth's growth into adulthood (with the exception of religious rituals). The striving and attainment of rank serves as a subsitute to youths for the long lost days of in bringing in the first kill from the hunt to feed the tribe, etc.

It literally represents a passage into manhood (even if one is 65) since the striving and effort embody an arduous mental, spiritual and physical journey.

Also keep in mind that testing validates the weight of authority carrird by those who have "put in their time" and striven to be the best. I am not referring to those boards who award for money or to please students.

I am referring to those board members who have proven themselves time and time again in and outside of the dojo and whose character is unassailable.


Thanks for listenting.

Mike D.

Bill, it is 70 deg. with sun shning all week. What's up in your neck of the woods? Hee - Hee