not getting personal with the discussion gentlemen.
Remember, share what we feel is better, but lets stay away from what you feel is lacking in what others do.
Jim mostly follows the rules, but on occasion, some of his comments appear to be negatively comparing uechi with WC.
It may seem strange to some people that so many intelligent, non-Uechi martial artist post on our forums. To me, this is a sign that we are doing something right and the fact that we welcome all thoughtful posts. There are lots of other forums where the stupid style bashing goes on. Lets not practice it here.
If you feel Jim or anyone else is "crossing the line" of good taste, send a PM. Don't escalate the situation by jumping in with more insults.
Jim is, in my estimation, a very intelligent, thoughtful and valued contributor to these forums. We don't always agree and we both have been wrong on occasion. But I like his style when he is "on a roll", even if much of what he says is from a WC perspective.
Descendents of Shushiwa
Moderator: Available
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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I'd appreciate
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
You know I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone say they they would like train in a given art BUT they "don't want to do X."
I never understood that point of view.
Its one thing to spend a lot of time and effort learning something, then decide after you have plenty of experience that your going to make changes/leave stuff out etc.
Its quite another to decide PRIOR to ever taking it up that you don't wish to learn certain things.
To badly mangle a very old concept in martial arts:
How can you absorb what is useful if you don't really know what is going to be "useful" or not?
I never understood that point of view.
Its one thing to spend a lot of time and effort learning something, then decide after you have plenty of experience that your going to make changes/leave stuff out etc.
Its quite another to decide PRIOR to ever taking it up that you don't wish to learn certain things.
To badly mangle a very old concept in martial arts:
How can you absorb what is useful if you don't really know what is going to be "useful" or not?
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jorvik
Quote
Ray is in a perpetual battle with himself and how he wants to view a style he doesn't understand, can't seem to grasp when we describe our methods, and can't seem to find when looking for a source. I think it's a consensus opinion by now that he either doesn't "get" it, or refuses to when given the opportunity.
No I'm not
I am getting different messages, very different messages from different folks. I can grasp your methods, but they all contradict one another....and yes I don't get it 
.how can I agree with a couple of contradictry opinions, logically I can only agree with one and must therefore disagree with the other.
Quote ( by me
)
I said about Master Gushi guarding his head ..and then we get clips of a young lad who doesn't, because he is so busy taking shots to his body yet his dad is a major Uechika.
Bill's "missing kata" Seizan says that Master Toyama thinks this is the old kata he saw years ago ( I may very well buy Bill's video after reading this....especially having read on the forums what Bill has said about it )
others doubt this ..what is the correct Uechi Sanchin? do you lean back or compress forward?.body conditioning is done in Chinese internal styles.but sooooo slowly and over many.many years. Master Toyama says that the severe body testing seen now used to be done as a demonstration
so until we have some pretty clear answers to these questions ( and a couple of others).
Bill if you could explain these contradictions to me I'd be happy
but folks won't they'll just brush it under the carpet ......I am not Jim I do Wing-Chun and I'm just as critical/impartial to that as I am to all the other arts that I've done ..and I hope to remain that way 
CXT
You know I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone say they they would like train in a given art BUT they "don't want to do X."
I never understood that point of view.
Well look at what I said above ..............You have got to know what is being offered before you can make an assessment.
Take body "conditioning".Master Toyama has said that the severe Sanchin testing that we see is a modern thing, which came about because it used to be shown at a yearly Demonstration.
Yet we see folks doing this all the time. some people have even gone on to develop their own drills.......................one guy hits parking meters with his shin
...now if I wanted to do "traditional Uechi" I would have to not do the conditioning in the manner that it is practised now .You see the dilema, some folks "THINK" they are teaching traditional Uechi
Ray is in a perpetual battle with himself and how he wants to view a style he doesn't understand, can't seem to grasp when we describe our methods, and can't seem to find when looking for a source. I think it's a consensus opinion by now that he either doesn't "get" it, or refuses to when given the opportunity.
No I'm not
I am getting different messages, very different messages from different folks. I can grasp your methods, but they all contradict one another....and yes I don't get it .how can I agree with a couple of contradictry opinions, logically I can only agree with one and must therefore disagree with the other.Quote ( by me
)I said about Master Gushi guarding his head ..and then we get clips of a young lad who doesn't, because he is so busy taking shots to his body yet his dad is a major Uechika.
Bill's "missing kata" Seizan says that Master Toyama thinks this is the old kata he saw years ago ( I may very well buy Bill's video after reading this....especially having read on the forums what Bill has said about it )
others doubt this ..what is the correct Uechi Sanchin? do you lean back or compress forward?.body conditioning is done in Chinese internal styles.but sooooo slowly and over many.many years. Master Toyama says that the severe body testing seen now used to be done as a demonstration
so until we have some pretty clear answers to these questions ( and a couple of others).
Bill if you could explain these contradictions to me I'd be happy
but folks won't they'll just brush it under the carpet
......I am not Jim I do Wing-Chun and I'm just as critical/impartial to that as I am to all the other arts that I've done ..and I hope to remain that way CXT
You know I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone say they they would like train in a given art BUT they "don't want to do X."
I never understood that point of view.
Well look at what I said above
..............You have got to know what is being offered before you can make an assessment.Take body "conditioning".Master Toyama has said that the severe Sanchin testing that we see is a modern thing, which came about because it used to be shown at a yearly Demonstration.
Yet we see folks doing this all the time. some people have even gone on to develop their own drills.......................one guy hits parking meters with his shin
...now if I wanted to do "traditional Uechi" I would have to not do the conditioning in the manner that it is practised now .You see the dilema, some folks "THINK" they are teaching traditional UechiJorvik
But its pretty easy to cherry pick--the problem comes when you apply that across the board.
If a given teacher is hitting parking meters with his shins---and you don't like it--then don't train with him.
Seems like a pretty simple solution to me.
Maybe Toyama is 100 percent correct, and maybe he is partially correct, etc.
Point is that if you think Toyama or Sensei X has the right appraoch then train with those that follow that method.
And don't train with those that don't.
Again, pretty simple solution.
Another thing you should consider is that what you have outlined is less a problem with a Uechi and merely the normal differences you will find among teachers and students.
Like eveything else connected with the martial arts---it always comes down to the person involved.
But there is nobody forceing you to train.
But its pretty easy to cherry pick--the problem comes when you apply that across the board.
If a given teacher is hitting parking meters with his shins---and you don't like it--then don't train with him.
Seems like a pretty simple solution to me.
Maybe Toyama is 100 percent correct, and maybe he is partially correct, etc.
Point is that if you think Toyama or Sensei X has the right appraoch then train with those that follow that method.
And don't train with those that don't.
Again, pretty simple solution.
Another thing you should consider is that what you have outlined is less a problem with a Uechi and merely the normal differences you will find among teachers and students.
Like eveything else connected with the martial arts---it always comes down to the person involved.
But there is nobody forceing you to train.
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I'm not going to get into explaining or defending your strawmen, Ray. I have my own ways of doing things; others have their own.
I don't beat on people in Sanchin. In this way I agree 100% with Toyama Sensei. George feels the same way. Some people are into big-time "hard" Sanchin testing. Good for them, but I am not. And I don't lose any sleep over it. Apparently you do; that's your cross to bear.
I do however practice kotekitae, ashikitae, karadakitae, and ukemi. You can't really call yourself a Uechi practitioner if you aren't conditioning your body. That's what Uechi people do, along with other methods from the traditional (kami training) to modern (weightlifting).
I also don't get worked up over 2 people disagreeing about the interpretation of this or that move. What I see in my style and how I teach it works for me. And when I got to camp, I shut up and watch what other people do. If they all were doing the same thing, then I wouldn't be going to camp every year. Thankfully I come with a relatively empty cup (I am asked to teach...) and bring a few new ideas home every year.
You posted earlier in the thread, jorvik, that you box and you lift weights. You apparently view these as pure activities on some level. Well consider the following:
* In boxing, half of all people get their asses handed to them during a fight. So apparently half the people in boxing ******. (Tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
* Boxing teaches you to punch the head. This is just downright stupid for self defense. But go ahead - try defending the concept (head punching) on Van's forum. See how far you get.
* The vast majority of people who lift weights don't know what the hell they are doing. I have been weight training since the later 1960s, when I got my first Ted Williams set from Sears for Christmas. I received my first formal instruction in 1970 at Phillips Exeter. I've trained with a world heavyweight powerlifting champion, and married a champion bodybuilder so I know what I'm talking about here. Most weight lifters don't lift consistently, don't understand the principle of stress vs. rest, don't understand the principle of progressive resistance, don't understand the concept of periodization, don't understand an open chain from a closed-chain exercise, don't understand how to emphasize fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle, don't know the difference between strength and power development, etc., etc.
So you are involved in activities where folks do stupid stuff, don't know what they are doing, argue about the best ways to do things, and generally ****** when compared to the ideal.
Hmm....
Read up on Vilfredo Pareto some time. There's a lot he could teach you about "the real world."
- Bill
I don't beat on people in Sanchin. In this way I agree 100% with Toyama Sensei. George feels the same way. Some people are into big-time "hard" Sanchin testing. Good for them, but I am not. And I don't lose any sleep over it. Apparently you do; that's your cross to bear.
I do however practice kotekitae, ashikitae, karadakitae, and ukemi. You can't really call yourself a Uechi practitioner if you aren't conditioning your body. That's what Uechi people do, along with other methods from the traditional (kami training) to modern (weightlifting).
I also don't get worked up over 2 people disagreeing about the interpretation of this or that move. What I see in my style and how I teach it works for me. And when I got to camp, I shut up and watch what other people do. If they all were doing the same thing, then I wouldn't be going to camp every year. Thankfully I come with a relatively empty cup (I am asked to teach...) and bring a few new ideas home every year.
You posted earlier in the thread, jorvik, that you box and you lift weights. You apparently view these as pure activities on some level. Well consider the following:
* In boxing, half of all people get their asses handed to them during a fight. So apparently half the people in boxing ******. (Tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
* Boxing teaches you to punch the head. This is just downright stupid for self defense. But go ahead - try defending the concept (head punching) on Van's forum. See how far you get.
* The vast majority of people who lift weights don't know what the hell they are doing. I have been weight training since the later 1960s, when I got my first Ted Williams set from Sears for Christmas. I received my first formal instruction in 1970 at Phillips Exeter. I've trained with a world heavyweight powerlifting champion, and married a champion bodybuilder so I know what I'm talking about here. Most weight lifters don't lift consistently, don't understand the principle of stress vs. rest, don't understand the principle of progressive resistance, don't understand the concept of periodization, don't understand an open chain from a closed-chain exercise, don't understand how to emphasize fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle, don't know the difference between strength and power development, etc., etc.
So you are involved in activities where folks do stupid stuff, don't know what they are doing, argue about the best ways to do things, and generally ****** when compared to the ideal.
Hmm....
Read up on Vilfredo Pareto some time. There's a lot he could teach you about "the real world."
- Bill
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fivedragons
- Posts: 1573
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jorvik
Bill
We don't have "strawmen" over here or in Eire for that matter, we just talk
As to MA'S .My opinion is if you can walk your talk ( even a little ) then by all means share, if you can't, Don't!!
there are too many who can't, who have never fought, never will and believe they can
.....boxing is nothing special, I prefer "milling" as a start. Two folks get the gloves on and just go at each other..then after a while you add principles, direction and training.
somebody comes up and offers something better .then that's cool too
maybe Sanchin.But if it is just to stand there and get the schitt kicked out of you..well then you are a fool and deserve what you get wether you are Joe Bloggs or Sensei Miyagi of the poo pie ryu.
reality starts with common sense
.....I ain't gonna test you with an easily broken 4 be 4, I'll use a pick axe handle to the head...look at the vid of that poor foolish boy gettin beaten upon by his Dad.the stupid expression on the poor lad's face
I dunno Bill.sometimes I think this is a ship of fools.................would you subject your sons to that??
better to get out the old Glock and fire away than learn something as stupid and abusive as that
.you are a clever man Bill I know that, please be truthfull
We don't have "strawmen" over here or in Eire for that matter, we just talk
As to MA'S .My opinion is if you can walk your talk ( even a little
) then by all means share, if you can't, Don't!!there are too many who can't, who have never fought, never will and believe they can
.....boxing is nothing special, I prefer "milling" as a start. Two folks get the gloves on and just go at each other..then after a while you add principles, direction and training.somebody comes up and offers something better .then that's cool too
maybe Sanchin.But if it is just to stand there and get the schitt kicked out of you..well then you are a fool and deserve what you get wether you are Joe Bloggs or Sensei Miyagi of the poo pie ryu.
reality starts with common sense
.....I ain't gonna test you with an easily broken 4 be 4, I'll use a pick axe handle to the head...look at the vid of that poor foolish boy gettin beaten upon by his Dad.the stupid expression on the poor lad's faceI dunno Bill.sometimes I think this is a ship of fools.................would you subject your sons to that??
better to get out the old Glock and fire away than learn something as stupid and abusive as that
.you are a clever man Bill I know that, please be truthfull Jorvik
Ok, maybe this will help.
A "newbie" reads in your post above that you feel "milling" is a good introduction to training.
Reading that a person could think to themselves:
"wow this dude thinks strappng on the gloves and just banging away is a good way to to start training?
What a doofus.
That sounds like a real good way to get really hurt really fast.
No training on how to block and slip punchs, no help with how to use good footwork to keep out of range of blows and close enough that you can throw your own.
Plus, if that is his idea of training---why go to him at all?
Me and my mates can do that right here in my own basement."[/b][/i]
See what I mean?
People can draw all kinds of conclusions from the simple things.
Not all of them are accurate.[/i]
Ok, maybe this will help.
A "newbie" reads in your post above that you feel "milling" is a good introduction to training.
Reading that a person could think to themselves:
"wow this dude thinks strappng on the gloves and just banging away is a good way to to start training?
What a doofus.
That sounds like a real good way to get really hurt really fast.
No training on how to block and slip punchs, no help with how to use good footwork to keep out of range of blows and close enough that you can throw your own.
Plus, if that is his idea of training---why go to him at all?
Me and my mates can do that right here in my own basement."[/b][/i]
See what I mean?
People can draw all kinds of conclusions from the simple things.
Not all of them are accurate.[/i]
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RACastanet
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
jorvik
My biggest mistake is taking you seriously. The only foolishness I see here is this fantasy world you insist on contriving.
Go troll someplace else. You're stinking up a perfectly good thread.
- Bill
My biggest mistake is taking you seriously. The only foolishness I see here is this fantasy world you insist on contriving.
- Abraham LincolnBetter to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Go troll someplace else. You're stinking up a perfectly good thread.
- Bill
Jeezus tapping dancing Keeryst!!!!!!!!!!!
NOTICE!!! to all non Uechi practicing martial art doods.
SANCHIN is not a "fighting" kata!!!!
In my four decades of doning a gi,I have never witnessed
in kumite,tournament competition and or the couple of
street confrontations involving Uechi ka,SOMEONE just
stand there and take it in sanchin!
Sanchin is to Uechi as the fundementals and techniques
of a golf swing is to the game of golf.....sort of...kind of.
SO!!! can we stop with this visual....Uechi, the art of bend
your knees,tuck your butt,squint your eyes and have the
crap beat out of ya?
All politicians are honest and moral individuals.
All Asians are myopic.
All black people love watermellon.
All English people have nasty teeth.
All whatever ya da ya da.....
WC people lean back and piston punch and move sideways
and are only effective if they are a woman or a small man.
Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOTICE!!! to all non Uechi practicing martial art doods.
SANCHIN is not a "fighting" kata!!!!
In my four decades of doning a gi,I have never witnessed
in kumite,tournament competition and or the couple of
street confrontations involving Uechi ka,SOMEONE just
stand there and take it in sanchin!
Sanchin is to Uechi as the fundementals and techniques
of a golf swing is to the game of golf.....sort of...kind of.
SO!!! can we stop with this visual....Uechi, the art of bend
your knees,tuck your butt,squint your eyes and have the
crap beat out of ya?
All politicians are honest and moral individuals.
All Asians are myopic.
All black people love watermellon.
All English people have nasty teeth.
All whatever ya da ya da.....
WC people lean back and piston punch and move sideways
and are only effective if they are a woman or a small man.
Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
