very interesting!!!

mhosea · Post by **mhosea** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:33 pm

MikeK wrote: If you squint and you might see a bit of a reinforced block.

Is this a Rorschach test?

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:34 pm

Well yes it is, but then bunkai is a Rorschach test.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:36 pm

Thanks for the offer to share some material Bill

Have all of Joe Pomfrets stuff from George . Have always complimented it

Mike Murphy`s stuff sound`s very interesting .

I Have read your thesis and have your kicking form on my hard drive somewhere

You sure ask a lot, Marcus!

I think each of us who contribute have shared what is near and dear to our own hearts. As long as you understand that the rest of the Uechi world isn't working on your personal list of hot topics, then I think we can proceed constructively.

actually Bill if you reread I was quite wide in my request , if you work down the list it goes from

Long striking (not included lots of drills there

)
bridging and contact
clinching
throwing
and I left out the ground ( lets not ask eveything eh !!! )

I`d request anyone who doesnt operate in these ranges in an unamed hand to hand art to please let me know wht I`ve missed .

but rather than just copy others arts (I`m like you Bill I do that) , I want to see these that have incorporated them into there Uechi and can bring them back to kata .

When you meet up with Sal online, I ask that you give him the respect that he deserves. To start with, you probably would if you met him in person.

I always do Bill , I give folks what they put out , its human phsychology , I treat everyone with respect until they prove otherwise , Ive often wondered how long you have to label someone a style basher before they stop sugar coating there responses . I`m sure the sentiment goes in many directions .

But lets get onto the substance .

Lets see what the next few months can dredge up , lets start getting this stuff to the wider public .

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:02 am

Mike, when I looked at your picture, I had the creepy feeling that someone else was using my body. No lie, the guy on the right must be related to me somehow, because I had a visceral reaction, like I recognized myself. Hard to explain, but I recognized his arms and hands, and that has never happened to me before. Maybe because I couldn't see his face, I dunno.

Anyway, the position he has his buddy in reminded me of something that happened a couple years ago. I walk into a bar and run into an acquaintance who is a few inches taller and probably outweighs me by fifty pounds or so. We shake hands and say hi as I'm leaving with my six pack. I have no idea what was going through his mind at this point, if anything, but he just won't let go of my hand. I'm backing towards the door, and he's talking to me and not letting go of my hand.

I gave a couple tentative pulls and then realized that he wasn't getting the hint. I kind of felt my body relax at that point and I started smiling at him while my hand went toward the floor and circled back up counter-clockwise. The next thing I knew, I had his thumb in my hand and he giving out a low kind of grunting sound. His arm was in the exact same position as the person on the left.

As I never learned a thumb grab defense to an obnoxiously lingering handshake before, I can only surmise that there is some value to training in martial arts beyond being spoon fed a technique for every occasion, with a pat on the back to say "it'll be allright, sensei's going to take care of you".

Interestingly enough, I went to a party a few months later and was met by the same guy, holding a hatchet, as some kind of joke.

Stepped in with my left foot, made a small little circle with my palm against the handle and before I knew what I had done, I was entering the room with a hatchet in my hand.

Now, to be sure, the situation wasn't self defense, and he is really a cool guy, but if he hadn't let go, his wrist would have broken. And I would still have the hatchet. Now as I've never been taught a hatchet disarm, I can only surmise that there is some value to training martial arts beyond being taught that everything has to come from outside yourself.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:24 am

As I never learned a thumb grab defense to an obnoxiously lingering handshake before, I can only surmise that there is some value to training in martial arts beyond being spoon fed a technique for every occasion, with a pat on the back to say "it'll be allright, sensei's going to take care of you".

True, IMO the hard part is learning enough techniques to learn how to apply the principles without getting tied up in the techniques.

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:27 am

"But funny that you mentioned Bassai as I'm relearning it purely as a form of excercise and movement. "

Also this quote reminded me that when I sit down at the computer and type in U for uechi, I feel like I'm sitting down around a campfire with old friends.

Especially Jim and Jorvik, life just wouldn't be the same without a little disagreement, free discourse is the spice of life.

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:51 am

Posted by Mike: "True, IMO the hard part is learning enough techniques to learn how to apply the principles without getting tied up in the techniques."

That rings true, and might have some kind of importance around these parts.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:45 am

I see it now

Bill hasn't given any referances to "Tegumi" because he doesn't know any Tegumi, however he does know some Aikido.which is a form of wrestling, and as Tegumi is a form of wrestling.well heck he must know Tegumi as well

......a very bizarre form of logic,.....but it really doesn't help you Marcus, because I'm guessing that you wanted the real deal ( with no assembly required).......may be hard to do.
The nearest example that I can give is the Yang style of Tai-Chi, in the first few moves ( PengLiuJian)there is a whole host of Qi Na techniques...which are perfectly explained by the moves of the form ( get a book or DVD by Dr.Yang,Jwing ming to see these )
I don't agree with Bill's assessment that the "original"Uechi-Ryu is an Okinawan style or that tegumi ( whatever that is ) plays any part in it I believe that the original Uechi-ryu , (not the stuff we see now was developed in China.........so if you look to China, you can get an idea as to the way they think

......also as the original art was supposed to be half hard/soft.....you may be able to find your knowledge here, because the "Soft" may referr to an art like Tai Chi......I have toyed with the idea that Sanchin was a device to develop "pushing hands"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai1HtkMMrEc

but I think this was just a bit of wishfull thinking

best of luck in your search

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:31 pm

I think if it was to develop a form of push hands you'd have seen it used as a form of push hands. I think it is what it is.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:15 pm

Yeah maybe, I didn't think there was any Tegumi in it either

There are a couple of things that I've been thinking about lately one is that maybe karate was pretty much developed in Okinawa and when folks when to China it was just to supplememnt what they had, and not to actually learn a new system, for one thing they never seem to have brought any weapons forms back.......and with the sticking/pushing hands there is some stuff like in Goju ( Kakie)....but it certainly hasn't got any of the refinement of the Chinese methods.
I read many years ago that the Okinawans were very deferential to the Chinese because that was where their art originated , but frankly I have seen little of this deference....China is a huge nation, and I don't believe for one minute that the Okinawans, at best Merchants at worst peasants, would ever have access to the really "High" martial arts of China....The Chinese are very secretive and selective about who they pass their knowledge on to, sometimes just the eldest son, or even let it die with them...........folks may scoff at me saying this.but I know it for a fact

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:08 pm

MikeK wrote:I think if it was to develop a form of push hands you'd have seen it used as a form of push hands. I think it is what it is.

Not clear on what this means..

Tegumi is supposed to be a known quantity yet it's invisible on the net--only or mainly non Okinowans showing it, or what they think it is..

Funny if the Okis have a grounding in close range and the arts from China came from close range, yet very little close range tegumi type stuff to be seen.

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:31 pm

Let's see here..... I believe there is one uechi-type person who has posted here a few times who was employed as instructor in Imelda Marcos' bodyguard? Then trained Hong Kong police? There's a guy called Rory on these fora who regularly day in and day out has "beaten" larger and stronger adverseries, with criminal intent. There's a guy in Mike's picture who I understand might have just a bit more real experience and skill than most. It looks like he has somewhat of an understanding of "high martial arts".

I also believe that each one of these people has an open mind and trains and learns from whatever style or person has something to offer them?

If you succeed in quieting your mind for one moment and actually absorb the fact that there are many more people who have contributed to this forum, or are related in uechi to the people who do, who have done more in real life than any of your secret masters have ever done, you might be able to let go of your insanity.

I wish the best for you.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:04 pm

Nice post, fivedragons.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:05 pm

I found this on the internet. It's worth a read. Carlos will enjoy this, as it deals quite directly with the purpose of the thread he started.

But there's more... This touches on so much of what's being discussed here. And it paints a very different picture than what's being presented by some of the binary thinkers in this thread.

A Very Brief History of Okinawa

If you read this carefully, you too may arrive at the conclusion that the answers you seek may have been right there in front of you all along. And yes... it's up to you - the practitioner - to put it all together.

And for what it's worth, I teach that way myself. I don't tell people what the answer is. I teach them movement and then quiz the hell out of them until their own brains figure it out. That kind of teaching yields a superior product. Rather than give the students fish, you're teaching them how to be fishermen. Rather than creating (financial) dependencies, you're sending people out on their own with all the tools they need to make it on their own.

- Bill

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:27 pm

The practice of diluting training, where the training is the product, is not better or somehow deeper, or teaches folks how to fish better... It's simply a diluted curriculum..

Yes it is what it is...

If you are going to try to make that somehow sound "better" or even equal to non diluted training then you are in denial of the reality of what a curriculum is and what it's supposed to produce..

I can speak for my own system.. WCK is not "better" when it's not taught correctly--it's crap..

Let's wake up and breath in the smelling salts..

Bill you seem to be taking an opposing view. Are you essentially trying to say, well it could be just as good or better when not taught correctly..?

If this makes sense to some then I strongly disagree and suggest that position is wholly illogical since the whole point of studying a "thing" in the first place was the curriculum.. No, diluted is not better--it turns TMA into kiddie games and men into rock 'em sock 'em, by the number robots