Reverse Engineering Seisan

[Dana Sheets]

Hi Laird & Stryke - thanks for jumping in!

Laird - do you have a way of posting a clip of what you're talking about? I think I get it - do you hit with your fingertips or your palmheel when you train this bunkai? I'm keeping my fingertips for typing - so while I can hit pull power with my bushiken - I usually insert palmheels for fingertips. Or if you condition your hiraken I guess you could use that too - but you don't have the option of a quick grab.

Stryke - what you describe is one of the moves that is a favorite at the K1 and sanshou tournaments. Only difficultly is not helping them fall lightly after years of "helping" students not get beaten by the floor/mat. What judo calls "black hand" - instead of helping your partner fall well - you help them fall badly.

OK - on to series 5 - the forward lunging elbow.

This is something you can do "joust style" if you time it right. Just line up your body, go straight down the tubes and plant your elbow into the oncoming puncher/shover. The raised Hiraken fist protects you against their head if it flops forward. (Another reason to train and condition those traditional fists!). And if you happen to stomp your front foot on one of theirs their fall will break the ankle or at least wrench it a good bit.

The reason I don't connect this technique with the next two (bushiken & knukite) is that if you execute the elbow properly - they're not standing their for you to continue to hit. And in Sanseiryu the following move shown makes sure that uke won't get back up..

Simple. Brutal. The most important part (IMHO) is that your structure is all lined up before you put weight on the end of your elbow.

Now - there's another take on this technique altogether as shown by Toyama's tradition (among others). This makes the elbow into a plunging technique. Where the tip of the elbow is placed on uke and then you're sort of doing a drop-in-place so that your body weight transfers in and down through your elbow into uke. I've had a tougher time making this one work - although admittedly I haven't spent all that much time on it yet.

[Bill Glasheen]

Stryke

I've had Shotokan practitioners both as teachers and students. There's much to share. Recently I had a blast teaching Hamahiga no tonfa to a Shotokan practitioner, and having us compare the form to those within our respective systems that it seemed to match (Seisan and Bassai). Good stuff...

I'll be a good Do-Bee and wait until Dana says to talk about sequence 10. I have a neat solution to that one, although it may not be what Dana is looking for...

I never heard of that Toyama application, Dana, but I have a idea how it might work. There is a way that you can trigger what is sometimes referred to as the gastric reflex. It requires doing a thrusting technique down at a certain angle, contacting a certain area of the body. Very bizzare reaction when it works. You black out (vasovagal response with about a 5 second delay) and/or poop your pants.

Shinjo Kiyohide was telling a group of us a story one day (mid 1980s after a workout with Marty Dow) about a student being tested in sanchin as part of a demonstration. The clueless instructor inadvertently triggered a "brown out." Very funny to hear him say the whole story in Japanese (with intermittant translation), and then having him finish by saying "Ichi, ni, san.... He $hit his pants."

- Bill

[CANDANeh]

Series 4 = slide forward hit with double bushikens, grab with double shokens & turn

The traditional seisan bunkai give us the following - shoot the oncoming shover in the inguinal crease or the floating ribs with your fingertips or your bushikens, then grab onto a good hunk of flesh & muscle and throw your uke into the oncoming attack from your right.

Bunkai has influenced us into only thinking this attack is frontal, attack someone from behind and it becomes "attack hard, retreat fast" using the application (palm heel instead of finger tips of course). The shokens draw nicely under the rib cage as well to pull the person up and in and basically for an instant you have a hostage facing away from you somewhat shaken. Also, a frontal attack preempted onto the uke before they move forward is also effective as reach is no longer an issue. Reasons to attack from behind may include but not limited to group engagements...

[wolfeyes23]

Greetings – Dana san, a friend of mine pointed out this discussion to me, I thought I might add a few comments about Hsing and geometric patterns.
There need not be 13 technique in seisan for this number to apply to a grouping of Hsing, The number 13 MAY also be related to Taoist rather than Buddhist thought, in this case it is one of the cornerstones of Taoist cosmology
as it manifests in the world, this is the same cosmology and thought system that manifests in the 5 element theory (used by many in the Martial arts,kung fu in particular where the Original 5 Animals embody these principles)
and applies to Taichi, among other Chinese arts, such as Hsing-I where they walk the circle.

The kata seisan follows the necessary pattern to fit these concepts. (how can that be its not a circle , well, true but it addresses a circle) Since you may not care to get into this I will be as brief as possible and out line
how this fits together.

We could go through a progression of numbers but I will only mention the important numbers to the discussion for now.

Start with one central point – this is where the kata begins and ends, it can be represented by a symbol like Bill Glasheen Sensei’s , It is a dot within a undifferentiated
circle, it is the potential for all movement and all things.

This is divided into 2 heaven and earth with Man in the middle, (reference to this can be found in the Bubishi if
you care I will cite it).

The 2 divide into 4 which is a greater and lesser of each , this is a point of interest,
if we take Glasheen sensie’s symbol and place the pattern of Seisan kata within it we get a :
A center point – where the kata starts
a + sign - the pattern of the kata
and a circle - the eight gates or directions addressed
in Chinese arts like Taichi and Hsing-I
the math is easy: 1 + 4 + 8 = 13

The one is the center, the pattern of the kata represents the bottom of Yin-yang symbol, it represents the necessary motion of the feet and movements needed to address the cardinal directions and angles in a circle, these principles are:
Advancing to the front, withdrawing to the back, looking to the left, Gazing to the right
Normally advancing represents offensive movements and withdrawing defensive or receiving movements, looking left and Gazing right have these motions inherent in them,
If you look at the Yin/yang symbol it is really based on 4 not 2, two would be no motion, a straight line dividing
a circle, when you have a greater and lesser of each half
(4) you have movement and motion (the fat and skinny
parts of the commas) .
This is the interaction of technique in the kata. Anyway, from the 4 basic movement of the feet (+),
the techniques of the hands must address the 8 directions , inherent in a circle

In the big picture the hands represent the top of the yin/yang symbol, So what we end up
with is movement that originates in a central point (and returns to it), it address the cardinal directions, and exhibit attacking and defending principles, and it
can be used to address the 8 eight directions (by adding angles to the opponent and turns).

IMO This is as good a reason as any to number a kata 13, regardless of the number of techniques in it.

Just thought I’d point this out, you don’t need 13 set of Hsing to have a kata numbered 13,
you just have to address the above, and you could have any number of movements.

Just for the record, it could also be Buddhist, and it
might be 13 technqiues as well , we will most likely
never know.

Thanks for your thoughts, and allowing me to interrupt your discussion.
Romney^..^

[CANDANeh]

In the big picture the hands represent the top of the yin/yang symbol, So what we end up
with is movement that originates in a central point (and returns to it), it address the cardinal directions, and exhibit attacking and defending principles, and it
can be used to address the 8 eight directions (by adding angles to the opponent and turns).

This is only a fraction of what I enjoyed reading in this post, well written.

I thought I might add a few comments about Hsing and geometric patterns.

Would you be willing to start a tread on this, sometimes during treads wonderful post like these appear then sadly are lost as the "train" continues. Again, well written

[wolfeyes23]

Greetings – Thanks for your encouraging comments,
My intention was to add to the current discussion and
hopefully not detract from it, but, as the current topic runs its course, it might be nice to start a thread on the
general concepts in Taoist thought as they apply kata ,
I would enjoy going along with this and seeing where the discussion takes us.

I (like you and others on this forum ) , am just searching for concepts and ideas behind the development of karate and kata, I make no claims to having or knowing any secrets , but I do enjoy discussing these topics, and
this is why I found the current discussion of interest.

Thanks Dana san for the great stimulation to thought, and a wonderful topic please excuse my interruption , and perhaps when the current thread drops off you could join us for a more general discussion, as it winds
through some seldomly lit but hopefully interesting passages .

In the meantime I am very much enjoying your current discussion and will be following along for more insights.

Romney^..^

[Bill Glasheen]

We very much appreciate your comments, Romney. This helps a lot.

I knew a Romney in Charlottesville many years back...

You mentioned walking the circle in Hsing I. I thought in the "big three" internal arts, that bagua was the circle walking one. It's a bit of a diversion mentioning that (I've dabbled only a very little), but just wanted some clarification. We can take it to another thread if this isn't a simple answer.

Please tag along and help us. We're just a bunch of geek, blind, martial arts junkies leading each other along, and having fun on the journey.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Romney - thanks for dropping by. Interruptions like yours are not interruptions at all, they are invitations to reflect more deeply on what we do. Thank you.

You've offered quite a bit of material in your posts. One of the reasons that understanding classical kata is difficult is that the original intentions and philosophy of the maker of the kata are lost to us.

That's one reason for taking McCarthy's model and seeing if Uechi Seisan fits into the mold. And the concepts you've described can also define an approach to the form - one that would yield very different results.

Are folks familiar with "Barefoot Zen?"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 4?v=glance

This is book that asks the question (among others) of whether or not kata were developed with an adversary in mind, or instead, with a partner. Sort of sends your head spinning for a bit.

I am going to continue to plow ahead through the sequences - and I hope you'll point out where these movements could have another meaning. There are a couple of stone temple guardians at the Freer Gallery of Art here in DC that look like they're doing postures from the Uechi Sanchin kata. These postures represent certain beliefs and often certain political and religious meanings. This can also be a way of looking at the postures of the classical forms in martial arts. For example - I've been told that the "closed gate" posture at then end of Sanchin is a leftover from the boxer rebelltion. The right hand is the (yang) sun, the left hand is the (yin) crescent moon. And when the sun & move come together we will drive our enemies out of China!!!

So...that being said, onto our next sequence to continue our study of application and meaning!

[Dana Sheets]

What's important about these kinds of combinations is that if you don't train the classical fists (bushiken & nukite) then you're going to adapt the movement to fit the fists you can use.

The circle blocks are abbreviated as needed in application. Do we call agree on that concept?

I've seen this done where both techniques are aimed at the soft tissue of the neck. But that's not what the classic posture shows. The classic postures have the bushiken going somewhere to the neck or higher and the nukite going somewhere around the floating rib area.

For chinese medicine there is a point that's right below the nose that if you could hit it is supposed to really shut them down. And by the same token if you can smash into the chin when their jaw isn't clenched then you can, in theory - dislocate the jaw and send the back of it up into the brain.

And since we all know that this kind of specific targeting can be a challenge under adrenal stress, you can always just aim under the jaw and if your fingers are long enough - grab onto the base of the eye sockets. And you've also got the previously mentioned strike to the throat with the fingers pointing more to the side so you can grab and rip. Which again requires that you train your grip.

When you nail them above the shoulders with most any of these you'll open up the torso. Classically you were pushing up and into or up and behind the ribs. Since most of us save our fingers for typing these days it might be difficult to know just what the reaction would be to a very well condition strike. Since most of us probably don't want to volunteer to be hit hard enough to find out.

So what's new about this model is that you're dealing with one side than another instead of dealing with both sides moving together or just working the centerline. Curiously - this sequence starts with the circle block off the right side and the strike off the left rear. So perhaps this model trains you for those 10% of people who will fire off their left hand first. What's curious about this model is that the two parts of it are shown again in Series 7 & Series 8 following different techniques and/or facing a different direction.

[Guest]

Hi Dana, Marcus and I are on our way up north to play with Rick. I've got a lot on my plate but I'll try to post a clip on Sunday or Monday.

As far as training it as a bunkai, I'd just go with palm heels to the shoulders. Training partners become scarce when you start sticking fingers or hirakeins into the neck behind the colar bones.

I've got some comments to make on some of these series but no time to post. Hope you don't mind me back tracking a bit on these conversations. I'll becoming in late on this topic.

Got to run!

Great Thread!

[Dana Sheets]

Leo - great observation on using the sliding & thrusting move. Certainly useful. And it's certainly not known if the models were always meant to be used against someone already attacking you or if you could use them to attack the unsuspecting. Another mystery of the classical forms.

[CANDANeh]

Since most of us save our fingers for typing these days it might be difficult to know just what the reaction would be to a very well condition strike. Since most of us probably don't want to volunteer to be hit hard enough to find out.

I have long fingers that I`m certain can not withstand being used as a spear even though I work to strenghten them, my hands are my living also. I have no intention of using fine tools for a can opener
Shushiwa was an artist as well as Martial artist, I get a nagging feeling (who knows right?) he didn`t risk breakage.
Sometime ago my instructor revealed to me that the nugite may have been intended as a form of shuto. instead of the finger tips striking directly the contact could be a slicing or shaving action. It does work well slicing along the rib cage ( I have knocked the wind out of an uke demonstrating...be careful )and very effective along the neck as the uke is brought into the strike, the retraction back to Sanchin adds to the effect greatly. Interestingly enough it can be used to shear past arms (both attacking or defensive) and initiate intight applications.
Just my take on this sequence.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm a pragmatist, Dana.

Just as I don't see sanchin nukite as being literal, so too do I not see the supinated nukite as literal. Rather I believe the technique is there merely to show you that if you strike below the ribs, make sure you don't show the elbow the back of your hand. That simple...

But maybe I could thrust my hand inbetween the ribs, grab the heart, rip it out, and show it to the BG before he dies...

Who knows, maybe I made something other than what the author intended. Oh well...it works for me.

- Bill

[wolfeyes23]

Greetings – Bill San, you would be correct Baqua walks the circle, Hsing-I is based on the five elements, same basis different emphasis and manifestation, in my hasty reply I misspoke.

Dana San , about striking the point under the nose, TCM or not this is a mean strike, any forceful
strike to this area can cause the teeth to fall out,
if you feel behind your top teeth, there is a arch that
goes up to the top of the mouth cavity, there is a THIN bone that holds the teeth in place, (the inside is unsupported, a cavity) if you crack this bone, (which is relatively easy to do), the teeth drop out, It is possible to cause this bone to crack further and run up toward the
roof of the mouth as well, results either way ,a lot of pain, blood, and missing teeth.
You can add to this effect the TCM aspects and I think you have a very effective strike.

Considering left handed strikes, most untrained fighter will not strike left handed, unless they
square off and start boxing, it is very common (IMO) however , for someone to grab with their left
hand and punch (repeatedly ) with the right hand , I don’t know about you, but,
I respond to the grab same as a strike .

Romney^..^

[Dana Sheets]

Laird & Markus,

I'm JEALOUS. Please say hello to Rick for me. And please share your ideas when you get back - especially if they blow anything we've already said out of the water!

Bill - a "supinated nukite" is a sanchin arm thust -- yes?. I dunno...Who will ever know how much training was needed by a southern chinese person in the 19th century to make this an effective strike. I think we can all mostly agree that our western hands would take a little more coaxing.

That shearing application sounds interesting - I'll get someone to try it out on me. Bill - is there anywhere down there that would be more sensitive or easier to damage once you've knocked the head back a bit with the bushiken?