"I don't think there should be a fitness test aspect of a dan grading. The test itself is/should be a fitness test in my books and the training you did in order to get to be invited to test is the fitness test."...(Jaybo)
Yes, well, you'll never convince people who think Tae Bo is a "martial art", as many people do. (Respect to Billy Blanks.)
Or that all martial artists have to be Marines (Respect to Rich Castanet.)
This is reminiscent of what happened when Karate was introduced to Japan and was implemented as a "Phys-Ed" routine.
It is also typical of Western "upper-body" imagery equating to strength; the inverted-triangular beach-boy ideal.
How many Bowflex commercials emphasize the development of the lower body--the true source of Karate power?
They always show the abs six-pack and the muscular chest and arms: oh, and the ladies' butts of course.
I also believe in fitness. (at 52, I can bicycle to work 14.6 kilometers in under 40 minutes.)
But it's a popular red herring in terms of Karate performance because "fitness", as portrayed in ad media, emphasizes the wrong aspects; the image, the muscle size, the admiring females.
And dare I say this?:
General fitness is a LOT easier to achieve than Karate ability; that's why so many people just go to the gym rather than the dojo.
Sure it takes fitness to perform Karate properly, and THAT'S the test.
So, yes, I agree with Jaybo's statement.
Pushups, situps, running, biking, Yoga, Tae Bo, whatever you want--should be part of your own PRIVATE regimen of preparation for "the test", not part of it.
NM
Uechi and Fitness Standards
Moderator: Available
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
Amen Neil!!!!!And dare I say this?:
General fitness is a LOT easier to achieve than Karate ability; that's why so many people just go to the gym rather than the dojo.
Sure it takes fitness to perform Karate properly, and THAT'S the test.
If I spend just two weeks in the pool I can work up to a mile. (70 lengths)
It takes YEARS to develop proper technique and understanding of Kata. You have to be in shape to obtain Uech Dan standards. 1/3 of the kata scoring in the Dan test is Strength and accuracy. We all know how many hours of practice and training it takes to develop good kata habits... let alone un- training bad ones.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hmm... 
You know...this is a very, very difficult subject. And there is no way we are going to tackle it without
1) hurting some feelings because of the level of fitness and/or personal appearance of some,
2) shaking people out of their comfort zones, or
3) running into rationalizations for why some people just don't want to work that hard, or expect that much of themselves.
Let's just all agree to put our thoughts on the table while having consideration for our neighbors. Don't hold back, but be sensitive to others.
One thing is clear to me - we don't have a uniform definition of fitness. Consider that fitness includes the following elements.
1) Aerobic fitness. This is all about heart/lung/circulatory training, as well as aerobic energy production capacity. Pick your poison - running, swimming, treadmill, biking, aerobics, Norditrak, taebo, what-ever. Ideally you do a collection of activities, and change your routine a couple of times a year.
2) Anaerobic fitness. This includes maximizing energy production from phosphocreatine and glycolytic activity. Those on various sport teams may remember those "wind sprints" at the end of practice that made you want to puke...
3) Balanced strength (something impossible to achieve by doing pushups and situps in a karate dojo),
4) Flexibility. Not just passive, but active range of motion. This is where modern methods such as PNF and CRAC can come into play.
5) Weight management (ideal body composition). Forget the scale, and the BMI measures. We're talking about consideration of strength to weight ratio, body fat percent, and where that fat is on your body (visceral vs. subcutaneous fat). These issues affect your ability to live a healthy life (avoiding "Syndrome X") so you can train for the long run, avoid injuring yourself while training, and get beyond the fantasy of "my fight of doom will be over in seconds."
6) Neuromuscular fitness. This is training to maximize and use the dynamic stretch reflex. It's all about power development - a key and undeniable ingredient in any martial art.
7) External conditioning. Not only kotekitae, ashikitae, and karadakitae, but also ukemi. Many karateka with black belts around their waists can't take a hit and/or can't take falling down on anything other than a soft mat. If you think Uechi is only a striking art and that no bad guy(s) out there want to slam you into some high-speed dirt, well fine. Otherwise...
8: General coordination skills. Come on, teachers, you know what I'm talking about. Half our students can't even lead a class without getting confused (talking and doing at the same time), and many are slow learners. We all can use some improvement. Stay tuned... Kevin Guse (formerly on the Nebraska football team) of the Nebraska Uechi dojo is about to finish a video.
9) Neurohormonal fitness (ability to manage the survival stress response). This is Van's specialty. On occasion, he likes to engage in some "ice water therapy" for those who deny this is imporant in a fight.
10) Activity specific fitness. It never ceases to amaze me how many dojos can't shoken, sokusen, hiraken, or boshiken their way out of wet paper bags. That's the half of it. The other half is most don't know how to use these techniques. And many of those folks will rationalize why we should never work on those techniques. Bullpoop!
Some will pull out their Okinawan bible and sing the praises of doing kata until we are enlightened. Hmm... That's not my idea of complete training. To me, the kata are reference books. One doesn't become an expert by reading reference books. One becomes an expert by using reference material to engage in myriad activites that bring one towards expert status.
Some will sing the praises of making it through two sparring matches on a test - complete with a rest inbetween. Fine... I'm glad those folks only will face bad guys in karate dojos where everyone agrees to follow the dual (one-on-one) format. I'm glad all your street battles will be by the rules, and there will be a referee there to stop the match when you are hurt. I'm glad YOUR bad guys only will attack you when you are at your best.
There is confusion as to where these fitness activities should happen. As I have said before, I prefer NOT to do "the daily dozen" in the dojo, except for beginner classes (where some WANT to sweat), and/or classes specifically intended to address fitness. Instead I prefer to introduce many of these concepts in Uechi classes, and expect students to be mature enough to use resources (made available by the sensei) to reach one's personal goals and address personal needs.
Also, I'm not all that enlightened by fitness tests during a shodan exam. Rather, I would prefer that schools develop detailed fitness assessment programs, and then (please) don't send us any trash to a dan exam. Sorry if that strong language is offensive, but folks on the board know what I'm talking about. Schools should have some pride, for Christ's sake. Some do (and exceed my wildest expectations). Some don't, and instead seek only to meet minimum requirements. That's not good for anyone.
Conisder what karate training in China and Okinawa used to be like. None of these convenient, tidy one-hour classes with everyone doing the same thing. Instead, people spent hours in the school addressing many of those needs that I specified above. Kata checking was one at a time. Toys, tools, and activities were made available for students to explore with and use to better themselves. Teachers served as advisors rather than spoonfeeding gurus.
And one final thought about our brothers in The Marines. One person suggested that we shouldn't aspire to their level of fitness. Really? Consider this. Marines for the most part should be generalist technicians in the field of combat. In my mind, Uechika should be specialists in hand-to-hand and hand-on-weapon combat. Our median practitioners IMO should be better than theirs in these specific skills. After all, where do you think some of the material in the MCMAP comes from? And what kind of example do we want to give those who serve our country and seek expert advice? Food for thought.
- Bill
You know...this is a very, very difficult subject. And there is no way we are going to tackle it without
1) hurting some feelings because of the level of fitness and/or personal appearance of some,
2) shaking people out of their comfort zones, or
3) running into rationalizations for why some people just don't want to work that hard, or expect that much of themselves.
Let's just all agree to put our thoughts on the table while having consideration for our neighbors. Don't hold back, but be sensitive to others.
One thing is clear to me - we don't have a uniform definition of fitness. Consider that fitness includes the following elements.
1) Aerobic fitness. This is all about heart/lung/circulatory training, as well as aerobic energy production capacity. Pick your poison - running, swimming, treadmill, biking, aerobics, Norditrak, taebo, what-ever. Ideally you do a collection of activities, and change your routine a couple of times a year.
2) Anaerobic fitness. This includes maximizing energy production from phosphocreatine and glycolytic activity. Those on various sport teams may remember those "wind sprints" at the end of practice that made you want to puke...
3) Balanced strength (something impossible to achieve by doing pushups and situps in a karate dojo),
4) Flexibility. Not just passive, but active range of motion. This is where modern methods such as PNF and CRAC can come into play.
5) Weight management (ideal body composition). Forget the scale, and the BMI measures. We're talking about consideration of strength to weight ratio, body fat percent, and where that fat is on your body (visceral vs. subcutaneous fat). These issues affect your ability to live a healthy life (avoiding "Syndrome X") so you can train for the long run, avoid injuring yourself while training, and get beyond the fantasy of "my fight of doom will be over in seconds."
6) Neuromuscular fitness. This is training to maximize and use the dynamic stretch reflex. It's all about power development - a key and undeniable ingredient in any martial art.
7) External conditioning. Not only kotekitae, ashikitae, and karadakitae, but also ukemi. Many karateka with black belts around their waists can't take a hit and/or can't take falling down on anything other than a soft mat. If you think Uechi is only a striking art and that no bad guy(s) out there want to slam you into some high-speed dirt, well fine. Otherwise...
8: General coordination skills. Come on, teachers, you know what I'm talking about. Half our students can't even lead a class without getting confused (talking and doing at the same time), and many are slow learners. We all can use some improvement. Stay tuned... Kevin Guse (formerly on the Nebraska football team) of the Nebraska Uechi dojo is about to finish a video.
9) Neurohormonal fitness (ability to manage the survival stress response). This is Van's specialty. On occasion, he likes to engage in some "ice water therapy" for those who deny this is imporant in a fight.
10) Activity specific fitness. It never ceases to amaze me how many dojos can't shoken, sokusen, hiraken, or boshiken their way out of wet paper bags. That's the half of it. The other half is most don't know how to use these techniques. And many of those folks will rationalize why we should never work on those techniques. Bullpoop!
Some will pull out their Okinawan bible and sing the praises of doing kata until we are enlightened. Hmm... That's not my idea of complete training. To me, the kata are reference books. One doesn't become an expert by reading reference books. One becomes an expert by using reference material to engage in myriad activites that bring one towards expert status.
Some will sing the praises of making it through two sparring matches on a test - complete with a rest inbetween. Fine... I'm glad those folks only will face bad guys in karate dojos where everyone agrees to follow the dual (one-on-one) format. I'm glad all your street battles will be by the rules, and there will be a referee there to stop the match when you are hurt. I'm glad YOUR bad guys only will attack you when you are at your best.
There is confusion as to where these fitness activities should happen. As I have said before, I prefer NOT to do "the daily dozen" in the dojo, except for beginner classes (where some WANT to sweat), and/or classes specifically intended to address fitness. Instead I prefer to introduce many of these concepts in Uechi classes, and expect students to be mature enough to use resources (made available by the sensei) to reach one's personal goals and address personal needs.
Also, I'm not all that enlightened by fitness tests during a shodan exam. Rather, I would prefer that schools develop detailed fitness assessment programs, and then (please) don't send us any trash to a dan exam. Sorry if that strong language is offensive, but folks on the board know what I'm talking about. Schools should have some pride, for Christ's sake. Some do (and exceed my wildest expectations). Some don't, and instead seek only to meet minimum requirements. That's not good for anyone.
Conisder what karate training in China and Okinawa used to be like. None of these convenient, tidy one-hour classes with everyone doing the same thing. Instead, people spent hours in the school addressing many of those needs that I specified above. Kata checking was one at a time. Toys, tools, and activities were made available for students to explore with and use to better themselves. Teachers served as advisors rather than spoonfeeding gurus.
And one final thought about our brothers in The Marines. One person suggested that we shouldn't aspire to their level of fitness. Really? Consider this. Marines for the most part should be generalist technicians in the field of combat. In my mind, Uechika should be specialists in hand-to-hand and hand-on-weapon combat. Our median practitioners IMO should be better than theirs in these specific skills. After all, where do you think some of the material in the MCMAP comes from? And what kind of example do we want to give those who serve our country and seek expert advice? Food for thought.
- Bill
Bill, I like the way you make me think.
The days of many hours of practice to achieve martial prowess are not over. There is a real difference between someone who takes it seriously and someone who doesn't. So here's a question: What are you promoting folks for? I don't mean this in a challenging tone, but as a serious question. To keep them motivated and in the school? To reward attendence? I don't think so. I think standards have been lowered in many martial arts to a certain extent to keep students, which leads to this situation that Bill suggested where the specialists in M.A. don't hold themselves to a higher standard than the general warriors trained in the military. To turn it around a bit, those general warriors have to be prepared for a lot more situations, for example moving self and equipment cross country for long distances, that aren't considered part of the specialized martial artists' 'mission statement'. They become more fit as a result of this massive cross-training.
Having said that, I think many young people who are physically talented find themselves bored in a martial arts class but feel challenged playing basketball, football, soccer, gymnastics ... that's not right. Using the time crush we experience in day to day life as an excuse shows itself for what it is when you realize all these sports practitioners experience the same time crush. They make a choice to excel. Not everyone can go for Olympic level play in any sport, of course, but it's something to think about as far as where your individual MA practice fits on the scale of commitment. It also doesn't hurt to compare your practice with the best in the world, not just within the art but within the scale of physical human achievement.
Kami
The days of many hours of practice to achieve martial prowess are not over. There is a real difference between someone who takes it seriously and someone who doesn't. So here's a question: What are you promoting folks for? I don't mean this in a challenging tone, but as a serious question. To keep them motivated and in the school? To reward attendence? I don't think so. I think standards have been lowered in many martial arts to a certain extent to keep students, which leads to this situation that Bill suggested where the specialists in M.A. don't hold themselves to a higher standard than the general warriors trained in the military. To turn it around a bit, those general warriors have to be prepared for a lot more situations, for example moving self and equipment cross country for long distances, that aren't considered part of the specialized martial artists' 'mission statement'. They become more fit as a result of this massive cross-training.
Having said that, I think many young people who are physically talented find themselves bored in a martial arts class but feel challenged playing basketball, football, soccer, gymnastics ... that's not right. Using the time crush we experience in day to day life as an excuse shows itself for what it is when you realize all these sports practitioners experience the same time crush. They make a choice to excel. Not everyone can go for Olympic level play in any sport, of course, but it's something to think about as far as where your individual MA practice fits on the scale of commitment. It also doesn't hurt to compare your practice with the best in the world, not just within the art but within the scale of physical human achievement.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Bill and Kami have made good points.
First, much of MCMAP comes right out Okinawan/Japanese martial arts. They teach ukemi early in the program to prepare Marines for the upcoming takedowns on less than forgiving surfaces.
I agree that the median Uechi practitioner will perform the style specific techniques quite a bit better than most Marines. Marines are riflemen first. Always in great shape and conditioned to perform under horrible conditions for great lengths of time. For instance, when it comes to delivering a hammerfist the MCMAP goal is not so much precision as it is applying it with crushing power. They are very good at applying powerful blows.
Most Marines will not rise to black belt in MCMAP as there is just too much to do. Only the first belt is mandatory. Although, if you are in a ground combat occupation - infantry, artillery and the like - green belt is a requirement. Marines returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are telling me that the tan level joint locks and takedowns were great techniques to have in their knowledge base during less than lethal situations.
As Bill says, they are generalists in the martial arts. And, their martial arts bag of tricks includes air power, artillery, armor, automatic weapons, bayonets etc. They would prefer to not engage in hand to hand combat. But, as was found out in Somalia, and more recently in Iraq, close quarter combat is a reality in today's wars.
Regarding being successful, the most successful companies in the world measure themselves against the best. Not just best in class, but best in the world! Period. GE (my alm mater) learned that from the WalMarts, Intels and Toyotas of the world. If you are going to be the best manufacturer in the world, whatever it is you produce, you need to measure yourself against the best manufacturers in the world.
So, perhaps martial artists should measure themselves against the best warriors in the world.
Rich
First, much of MCMAP comes right out Okinawan/Japanese martial arts. They teach ukemi early in the program to prepare Marines for the upcoming takedowns on less than forgiving surfaces.
I agree that the median Uechi practitioner will perform the style specific techniques quite a bit better than most Marines. Marines are riflemen first. Always in great shape and conditioned to perform under horrible conditions for great lengths of time. For instance, when it comes to delivering a hammerfist the MCMAP goal is not so much precision as it is applying it with crushing power. They are very good at applying powerful blows.
Most Marines will not rise to black belt in MCMAP as there is just too much to do. Only the first belt is mandatory. Although, if you are in a ground combat occupation - infantry, artillery and the like - green belt is a requirement. Marines returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are telling me that the tan level joint locks and takedowns were great techniques to have in their knowledge base during less than lethal situations.
As Bill says, they are generalists in the martial arts. And, their martial arts bag of tricks includes air power, artillery, armor, automatic weapons, bayonets etc. They would prefer to not engage in hand to hand combat. But, as was found out in Somalia, and more recently in Iraq, close quarter combat is a reality in today's wars.
Regarding being successful, the most successful companies in the world measure themselves against the best. Not just best in class, but best in the world! Period. GE (my alm mater) learned that from the WalMarts, Intels and Toyotas of the world. If you are going to be the best manufacturer in the world, whatever it is you produce, you need to measure yourself against the best manufacturers in the world.
So, perhaps martial artists should measure themselves against the best warriors in the world.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
"as was found out in Somalia, and more recently in Iraq, close quarter combat is a reality in today's wars."
"
perhaps martial artists should measure themselves against the best warriors in the world"...R.A.Castanet
I think I see what you mean, as did the Rangers and Special Forces in Mogadishu: the "best warriors in the world" can be the under-fed, under-funded, under-trained but committed and fanatical fighters.
Able to turn back even the most highly sophisticated, highly trained, highly equipped fighting force ever to enter their country.
Same in Vietnam I believe.
My history is not very good but I get your point: "never under-estimate the un-sophisticated but devoted enemy."
Good advice in any war, any time.
However I'm not sure martial artists should model themselves after those kind of warriors. After all, WE purport to be civilized.
NM
"
perhaps martial artists should measure themselves against the best warriors in the world"...R.A.Castanet
I think I see what you mean, as did the Rangers and Special Forces in Mogadishu: the "best warriors in the world" can be the under-fed, under-funded, under-trained but committed and fanatical fighters.
Able to turn back even the most highly sophisticated, highly trained, highly equipped fighting force ever to enter their country.
Same in Vietnam I believe.
My history is not very good but I get your point: "never under-estimate the un-sophisticated but devoted enemy."
Good advice in any war, any time.
However I'm not sure martial artists should model themselves after those kind of warriors. After all, WE purport to be civilized.
NM
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I think it worth noting that the style Kanbun brought from China came from an area and era where folks were training in guerilla warfare. Futhermore, there's absolutely nothing civil about many of the techniques in the style. This isn't a sport art like taequodo, judo, boxing, or wrestling, and it isn't a gentleman's art like aikido.I'm not sure martial artists should model themselves after those kind of warriors. After all, WE purport to be civilized.
Also...read Allan Dollar's book about the reason why Uechi Kanbun may have left China.
It's sort of like doing work on geneology. You never know what you'll find if you dig deeply enough.
- Bill
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
Let's not forget a President who pulled the troops out as soon as things got really messy. I'm sure the hellacopter incident with the Rangers being dragged through the streets was a big inspiration to the people of Fallujah (who also dragged mutilated corpses through the street).I think I see what you mean, as did the Rangers and Special Forces in Mogadishu: the "best warriors in the world" can be the under-fed, under-funded, under-trained but committed and fanatical fighters.
Able to turn back even the most highly sophisticated, highly trained, highly equipped fighting force ever to enter their country.
Actually I KNOW it was an inspiration to the Fallugians. Sadam made sure that the movie Blackhawk Down was shown quite frequently on Iraqi TV.The people of Mogadishu got lucky. The odds were like 500:1. It doesn't matter how well trained you are, you are going to either run out of ammo, or get over run.
Yes Neil. We gave up on Vietnam. Yes Neil. We gave up on Mogadishu.
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Paul Haydu
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:59 pm
- Location: Del Mar, California
This is my first post, but I feel the need to jump in...
Dan rankings should receive high respect based on high accomplishments. A karateka at Shodan and beyond should pass the "sniff test": their technique, demeanor and appearance (including apparent fitness) should match their rank. If anyone remembers Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura (Goju Ryu), or Taka and Sada (Shorinji Kempo) at George's Hancock St. dojo---these boys looked and performed at high levels, and they were Nidans as I recall. So when we speak about paradigms, I think of the best.
If I were to walk into a serious dojo in Okinawa, or a University karate club in Japan, would they laugh at my technique and appearance, or feel respect?
What about karateka who fit anyone's definition of obese...are they doing their style a benefit, or more importantly their health?
Speaking of "fitness windows", I can jog and do push ups and sit ups and a traditional Uechi workout, but I found it insufficient when I joined a Brazilian JJ class. One hour of technique with a partner was fine, but 4 three minute matches on the mat really tested my wind and endurance. In fact I tapped out once just for lack of air....so my NEW PARADIGM is to work up to that standard. And my feeling is that most fights, especially with several opponents, can get prolonged beyond an "average" player's reserves.
I don't believe that Uechi class time for Brown and Black belts should be used for calisthenics beyond our usual warmups. But the individual should take it upon themselves to improve. We are all either improving, or degrading. Martial arts gives us the model for continuous self-improvement.
Dan rankings should receive high respect based on high accomplishments. A karateka at Shodan and beyond should pass the "sniff test": their technique, demeanor and appearance (including apparent fitness) should match their rank. If anyone remembers Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura (Goju Ryu), or Taka and Sada (Shorinji Kempo) at George's Hancock St. dojo---these boys looked and performed at high levels, and they were Nidans as I recall. So when we speak about paradigms, I think of the best.
If I were to walk into a serious dojo in Okinawa, or a University karate club in Japan, would they laugh at my technique and appearance, or feel respect?
What about karateka who fit anyone's definition of obese...are they doing their style a benefit, or more importantly their health?
Speaking of "fitness windows", I can jog and do push ups and sit ups and a traditional Uechi workout, but I found it insufficient when I joined a Brazilian JJ class. One hour of technique with a partner was fine, but 4 three minute matches on the mat really tested my wind and endurance. In fact I tapped out once just for lack of air....so my NEW PARADIGM is to work up to that standard. And my feeling is that most fights, especially with several opponents, can get prolonged beyond an "average" player's reserves.
I don't believe that Uechi class time for Brown and Black belts should be used for calisthenics beyond our usual warmups. But the individual should take it upon themselves to improve. We are all either improving, or degrading. Martial arts gives us the model for continuous self-improvement.
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
I started karate in the sixties ,when a black belt was like a god ,well we all thought so ,and we were very fit and ready to fight [a fighting dojo ] it was instilled into us to be fit ,okay we wern't the best technicans .that part was improving though ,every workout was a serious sweat session , brown and black belts were in great condition ,then gradually this all peaked in the seventy's .
Now I see a mixture of fit and obese practioners .
max
Now I see a mixture of fit and obese practioners .
max
max ainley
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GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
Rich C. & Bill G.
After having read through this thread, i must comment that both of you guys present some excellent points.
From a military percpective and a "serious" martial artist view, i would agree that one "should" aspire to be in their best possible shape at all times.
Being ready for "combat" duty or life & death survival on the street, should not be taken lighty by any of us.
However, the truth is, many martial art practicioners do "not" study for the readiness or expectation of actual use. They do it out of interest or as a "hobby" like bowling or playing softball.
Expect not of these individuals to train anywhere near the levels that either of you suggest.
Heavy bag work, cardio workouts, strength training, intense sparring with real contact, etc. Are some of the things required for attaining top condition . Aside of class practice of kata and pre-arranged drills, supplimentary training is a must !
The majority of practicioners will not go this route as some of us have or still do.
Rescently i have aspired to get back into good physical shape as i believe an advanced black belt should. As it does not take long to go off the beaten path, get lazy and pack on some extra lbs.
Some would argue that the physical appearance and condition of ones health etc. does not reflect the ability of one's performance level. As they very well may still hold their own respectively on the mat.
Although this may hold true for some, i had pacified myself with simular belief so that i would not have to re-engage in the strict "discipline" that goes with an excersize program and diet.
Each one of us does respectfully have the choice of what shape we choose to be in. Personally, i believe that black belts should be in their best shape possible as part of the "Mind, Body & Spirit" we so often speak of.
Surely the dan test that many of us have sat upon boards to witness generally do present thsoe candidates who are in "acceptable" shape to be worthy of Dan Rank promotion. I have not seen it to be a problem.
However, as mentioned at the last New England meeting, their have been those over the years who have slipped by. We can only raise the standards and expectations for the future in hopes to eliminate that from continuing to happen.
The following is a post that i believe says it best. As we cannot expect advance classes to teach physical fitness in 1 1/2 hr classes.
This is my first post, but I feel the need to jump in...
Dan rankings should receive high respect based on high accomplishments. A karateka at Shodan and beyond should pass the "sniff test": their technique, demeanor and appearance (including apparent fitness) should match their rank. If anyone remembers Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura (Goju Ryu), or Taka and Sada (Shorinji Kempo) at George's Hancock St. dojo---these boys looked and performed at high levels, and they were Nidans as I recall. So when we speak about paradigms, I think of the best.
I don't believe that Uechi class time for Brown and Black belts should be used for calisthenics beyond our usual warmups. But the individual should take it upon themselves to improve. We are all either improving, or degrading. Martial arts gives us the model for continuous self-improvement.
This being said, it is up to the board members of various geographical locations to decide based upon dan testing, if the fitness levels presented are considered good enough for the rank tested.
Of course many of us know that the actual fitness level that is required to pass a standard dan test is no where near the fitness level of anyone who seriously aspires to be in top shape.
Respectfully,
After having read through this thread, i must comment that both of you guys present some excellent points.
From a military percpective and a "serious" martial artist view, i would agree that one "should" aspire to be in their best possible shape at all times.
Being ready for "combat" duty or life & death survival on the street, should not be taken lighty by any of us.
However, the truth is, many martial art practicioners do "not" study for the readiness or expectation of actual use. They do it out of interest or as a "hobby" like bowling or playing softball.
Expect not of these individuals to train anywhere near the levels that either of you suggest.
Heavy bag work, cardio workouts, strength training, intense sparring with real contact, etc. Are some of the things required for attaining top condition . Aside of class practice of kata and pre-arranged drills, supplimentary training is a must !
The majority of practicioners will not go this route as some of us have or still do.
Rescently i have aspired to get back into good physical shape as i believe an advanced black belt should. As it does not take long to go off the beaten path, get lazy and pack on some extra lbs.
Some would argue that the physical appearance and condition of ones health etc. does not reflect the ability of one's performance level. As they very well may still hold their own respectively on the mat.
Although this may hold true for some, i had pacified myself with simular belief so that i would not have to re-engage in the strict "discipline" that goes with an excersize program and diet.
Each one of us does respectfully have the choice of what shape we choose to be in. Personally, i believe that black belts should be in their best shape possible as part of the "Mind, Body & Spirit" we so often speak of.
Surely the dan test that many of us have sat upon boards to witness generally do present thsoe candidates who are in "acceptable" shape to be worthy of Dan Rank promotion. I have not seen it to be a problem.
However, as mentioned at the last New England meeting, their have been those over the years who have slipped by. We can only raise the standards and expectations for the future in hopes to eliminate that from continuing to happen.
The following is a post that i believe says it best. As we cannot expect advance classes to teach physical fitness in 1 1/2 hr classes.
This is my first post, but I feel the need to jump in...
Dan rankings should receive high respect based on high accomplishments. A karateka at Shodan and beyond should pass the "sniff test": their technique, demeanor and appearance (including apparent fitness) should match their rank. If anyone remembers Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura (Goju Ryu), or Taka and Sada (Shorinji Kempo) at George's Hancock St. dojo---these boys looked and performed at high levels, and they were Nidans as I recall. So when we speak about paradigms, I think of the best.
I don't believe that Uechi class time for Brown and Black belts should be used for calisthenics beyond our usual warmups. But the individual should take it upon themselves to improve. We are all either improving, or degrading. Martial arts gives us the model for continuous self-improvement.
This being said, it is up to the board members of various geographical locations to decide based upon dan testing, if the fitness levels presented are considered good enough for the rank tested.
Of course many of us know that the actual fitness level that is required to pass a standard dan test is no where near the fitness level of anyone who seriously aspires to be in top shape.
Respectfully,
Gary S.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Here's an interesting question:
If the general Uechi Ryu organization were to adopt fitness standards, then wouldn't the teachers ALL have to be Certified Fitness Trainers?
If they weren't, how else could they teach fitness---make it up as they go along?
Use some arbitrary benchmarks that they dreamed up or read about in an exercise magazine?
And of course: wouldn't there have to be fitness standards for teachers?
How many would pass?
NM
If the general Uechi Ryu organization were to adopt fitness standards, then wouldn't the teachers ALL have to be Certified Fitness Trainers?
If they weren't, how else could they teach fitness---make it up as they go along?
Use some arbitrary benchmarks that they dreamed up or read about in an exercise magazine?
And of course: wouldn't there have to be fitness standards for teachers?
How many would pass?
NM
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Spike
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: South Shore, Nova Scotia, Canada
- Contact:
"This is something I've heard discussed offline... should there be any set of physical standards that accompany Uechi rank?"
I say NO, everyone is unique. Different bodytypes should go with different exercises thus making the physique standards differ. Age and crosstraining (If Any) also comes into effect. Too many Variables...I say no. Though Physical Fitness is ALWAYS a plus IMHO. Fitness (and crosstraining) should be encouraged...not a set requirement. Were not exactly recruiting for marines here...are we
"It seems silly to say that a shodan has to be able to run a mile in X minutes or do X pushups... but isn't there SOME minimum we'd like to see? "
See above
I say NO, everyone is unique. Different bodytypes should go with different exercises thus making the physique standards differ. Age and crosstraining (If Any) also comes into effect. Too many Variables...I say no. Though Physical Fitness is ALWAYS a plus IMHO. Fitness (and crosstraining) should be encouraged...not a set requirement. Were not exactly recruiting for marines here...are we
"It seems silly to say that a shodan has to be able to run a mile in X minutes or do X pushups... but isn't there SOME minimum we'd like to see? "
See above
Richard
http://www.nskarate.tk
http://www.nskarate.tk
