8 directions in 2 spheres

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:04 am

Just because Kanei Uechi's kumite's were developed during the era of free sparring doesn't mean they don't contain important principles of the Uechi system.

Yes they certainly do. But the question is to what end.

The counterpoint, as we have seen it argued, is that they can also program bad habits for defensive street application.

So now tie your belt to your partner's and do your kumite. You can do it, but now you must do it short form - body shifting instead of steps, body shifting & deflections & strikes must happen all at once. But you can still use the pattern to build your abilities. To give you a starting point.

That would be an improvement. Here I like the prearranged set as performed by Rick Wilson, because it is more realistic for street applications.

Many other southern chinese systems including white eyebrow, white crane, and mantis use two man sets. They are another method. Some people will find them the most useful, others will find kata the most useful, others are natural fighters and don't need a single minute of training to know how to kill everyone in the room.

Very true Dana.. to each his own. Now you take the top Wing Chun system, as practiced by Shaolin, well, they don't use any prearranged sets. When I was in Italy, I saw some demonstrations of Wing chun [there it is called "the street fighting karate"] Again, no arranged sets...why? They approach the problem differently.

So just because Kanbun didn't do two man sets isn't a good enough reason for me to not look at them as a method of training. Seems like Kanbun and Max are the same type of guy - they can fight right out of the form.

Which means that their approach works for some people, as it apparently did for all kanbun's students when they kicked the Wabodan's ass...

But _ By all means Dana, you do as you see fit..I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise. You do what is best, what you perceive as best for you individually.

One of our senior, used to practice for fighting, stepping and balancing himself on pylons jutting out of the Boston Harbor. He felt it helped him, and so why not?

Well I can't. But I'm not going to whine about it and walk away. I'm going to keep plugging away until I figure it out, and figure out how to present this stuff to those who come after me...no matter how they learn.

As well you should, Dana. You are an outstanding Uechi-ka and a most complete cross - trained practitioner, and you have my respect as well as the respect of the world Uechi Community.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:16 am

As an example of questions being asked by many, on the Kbash thread, Rick wilson asked the following

Teaching prearranged Kumites that teach good principles should be a part of good training.

Teaching impromptu use of these principles should also be a very important part of our training.

So since the Kumite debate is open again, so let’s start with talking about the principle of my turn your turn and how it helps in preparing for a real violent encounter.

Why is the waiting for a turn continued to be taught after white belt.

This is a question in the minds of many.

Watching Jim Maloney perform kumites is an eye opener..you will see pre-emption galore...

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:32 am

Dana,I totally agree with your learning curve etc,yet I hope this thread does not turn into a slanging match ,which is the best way but upsetting as we talk etc,etc.

" max,are there other methods beside the kata you used to teach students how to see and apply uechi principles"

Well , lots of my posts are all about firstly seeing [secondly applying .

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:07 am

When I try a long post I seem to lose it .

Obviously I use kake [arm pounding etc, the sanchin stage teaches, builds exposes jolts shocks [seeing ] basically over the years I am very innovative orientated at doing this .

At first it was one bland method ,but I see methods inside methods ,Dana I do experiment ,so i try to find the key of a person ,such as; whats the best path for reaching the second method ,sanchin/seisan [ combat].
So the start is method 1 ,but with methods within ,sanchin/seisan is method two again with methods within .

Lets say we learn sanchin ;then attack it point blank [this will teach something ]a acid test [is it ready for help from seisan ,yes/no ,or more work is needed ,I don't just introduce seisan .I want seisan to melt on to sanchin like butter on to toast ,I devote at this stage in getting ready for the transition to seisan by more and more preparation .

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:38 am

As you see there I test the nothing but sanchin stage ,pressure test it ,or i could avoid that [the person ]and test at the seisan/sanchin stage .
Its at this stage quite a lot of what could appear seamingly pointless work bears fruit ,to me this is a very important stage for a student ,a few important exchanges[spontaneous ] indicate to the student ,yes what I have learned so far is valid ,but as a teacher I have to judge this right .

Tex Curran a street fighter came to learn uechi 17 years ago ,a natural fighter who was at the level I was looking for ,but in street fighting ,he just could not learn uechi it did not suit him .
Tex with his fighting brain could see what I was doing ,wthout even a hiccup . but he did not wish to go through the uechi build up .

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:59 am

Tex , could see in seconds what thousands upon thousands of words can totally fail to explain ,a lot of what I say on here I never ever mention to folk close to me ,like Tex they either see it or they don't ,my task is to make them see .
In the past I lost quite a few folk ,because I did not want to teach them ,my motto was to get my own house in order.

From a kanbun teaching methodology ,sanchin was the key seisan turned it and entered the combat zone of a jiyu kobo format .

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:25 pm

From a kanbun teaching methodology ,sanchin was the key seisan turned it and entered the combat zone of a jiyu kobo format .

Something to really think about.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:29 pm

Well I can't. But I'm not going to whine about it and walk away. I'm going to keep plugging away until I figure it out, and figure out how to present this stuff to those who come after me...no matter how they learn.

Nobody has implied any of this, Dana. I think that the people who question the kumites, and there are many out there, have been very clear on their thoughts.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:56 pm

Looks like lots of folks were online last night after I went to bed. Lots of good stuff.

The two man sets of other systems are more continuous in movement than how many do the Uechi ones. Except when I saw Mr. Toyama's formidable Godan daughter Naomi-san perform an excellent, long, arduous, and continuous two-man set twice against two towering opponents. (It was very fun to see - I don't know if that kumite is written down anywhere - but it took about five minutes to get through.) So if you think of doing Dan kumite as fast as you possibly could - that's more like how other systems use it. Still not street fighting - but you get to see what you're doing and someone else can observe what you're doing so you can see where you're making you're mistakes.

We gotta remember - back in the day they didn't have videotape - so a two man set is a way to see stop-motion action and fix errors in fundamentals.

And we've all agreed that at a certain point in training - pre-arranged work has got to go and not be the center of your training or you're setting youself up for a misunderstanding of how an actual fight happens.

Back up in the thread a little ways 2Green said:

They increase familiarity with contact as time goes on and get the student to inject some life into their techniques.

However, early on I recognized something about them which bothered me:
They demonstrate/illustrate UECHI defenses against UECHI techniques.

I think it's actually more simplistic - the Uechi kumites address about 7-10 different attacks that you can find in any system at the basic or sport sparring level - front punches, front kicks, round kicks, a very few round punches, a side thrust kick, a jumping front kick, what used to be a spinning back kick, etc.

Do they contain the habitual acts of physical violence as outlined in the Bubishi or as identified by today's real world experts? Nope. So they shouldn't be used to train for that. You need other things - many have already been identified on this site many times.

But I can use them as a basic way to see lines force - and I am right now. I'm also going to use some of Rick's kumites (if he doesn't mind), and the NLD training to see other lines of force and other kinds of timing. And it's what I'm practicing during my kata and my free sparring, and my meditation...it's what I'm doing right now.

(Next on the schedule is attacking at two levels at once without ending up on my tush but I probably won't get to that until later next spring).

I've learned that many people see the same thing many different ways. For example - when asking folks how they see the past, present, and future - some will say they see a timeline up in front of them, others see images of events, others see dates in their head, others see a list of their ages, others hear music, and a few even see a timeline that runs through them - with the past behind them, the present where they stand, and the future reaching to the horizon.

The same must be true of fighting. We must all perceive it differently - so how to build the skills we need when we're all coming at it from a different direction?

So in looking at lines of force, the kumite have their place, in looking at timing, combination, and flow issues - you need to either modify the kumites so significantly you're really making up new drills anyway, or look elsewhere.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:26 pm

We gotta remember - back in the day they didn't have videotape - so a two man set is a way to see stop-motion action and fix errors in fundamentals.

I'd agree with that Dana and toss in kata too. This week Bill and the class pointed out my errors in my fundamentals during Kanshiwa.

I think all of these are tools to build something. If someone finds a way to build something with a tool then that's fine. If someone finds a different tool to build the same thing then that's fine too. I'm not a big fan of kata for the sake of learning kata, but if it shows my mistakes and lets me work on correcting them then it is useful for getting me to my goal. I've heard some guys have had a break through watching a bird or a bug do it's thing. The guy studying them isn't going to turn into a bird or a bug during a fight, but they were tools for how he thinks about the fight.

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:17 pm

Slightly more than thirty years ago I was totally absorbed in the idea of kata straight to kumite ,I must confess to you all ,that I knew nothing of a jiyu kobo format ,but I was not happy with free sparring ,there was something radically wrong to my way of thinking with it ?
It hardly resembled a kata ,yet if it saved a life etc, so what ? when I walked out of our wado dojo I took half a dozen students to set up a new wado dojo ,to get my kata /kumite as one ,that was in 72 but there was something still wrong in our practice that evaded my efforts .
We were aware of Sanchin ,which came along to answer my martial prayer .upon viewing the uechi-ryu format I laughed and laughed about this on and off for weeks ,I saw straight through this structure ,this was it] the joy I felt at finding this was totally incredible .

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:06 am

Pr-arranged kumite

Van Canna ".Why did Kanbun not develop any?what did he know we don't"?

Thoughts: without actually talking to him on this subject question we will not know his oral answer ,yet Toyama sensei informs us all " Kanbun sensei would not change what Shu sensei taught him".
This provides clues ,yet it involves looking at the sensei behind Kanbun, now if we take that quote as true it changes the view that Kanbun himself put uechi-ryu together from his experiences in southern china ?.

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:42 am

If this is true we have two very different historical sensei ,one who knows several styles or more and one who dedicates himself to the passing on in pure form as close has possible one of his teachers styles ,this could be the start of a new thread so I will pause on those thoughts .

Van sensei suggests ;Kanbun would have been exposed to pre-arranged /two man sets ? yet did not use them ,more than thirty years ago this fact hit me as unusual ,but made total sense to me instantly . I already knew how hard it was to make kata and kumite .....as one.
My quest was not to tune up existing two man sets ,such as look for ways of closing the bridge between kata and pre-arranged kumites .

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:12 am

Why did Kanbun keep sanchin as the principle entrance method start to his school? if seisan is more so were uechi-ryu is at [fighting wise ]why not get rid of sanchin and lets get straight to the fighting part ,but Kanbun did not do this did he ,why did he not even attempt a fight until sanchin was up to scratch ?Just how much did these masters know on this ? why did they insist on this policy .
Why not compromise this policy ? again we see little change to this situation .It can be read as being dogmatic ,unyeilding etc, but all the time it was in our best interests .

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:31 am

These days we can say okay I accept that ,these days we have more choice ? and so we do and it is fully acknowledged .

But I think its also worth while to attempt some understanding of Kanbun /Shu sensei's motives and methodology ,it can help and aid future uechi-ryu in its direction .
My own research indicates that this policy was the key to being capable of fighting straight out of the kata ; sanchin needs to be brought to boiling point before the added flavor of seisan is poured in .

Sanchin de-program's the wrong things but program's the right things .