Fuzhou Suparinpei

[Bill Glasheen]

On a side note

Bill, will you be teaching the Fuzhou Suparinpei kata this summer at the Uechi Ryu Camp?

I do what George asks me to do. And yes, he'll likely ask me to teach this form.

It is my pleasure. I learn by teaching it. Now that it's on video, I can run people through the whole thing with the confidence that they'll pick it up on their own afterwards if they really want to. I've already seen that happen in the most unlikely of circumstances. Last time I visited Germany, there was this teenage kid who did the same with just a little bit of instruction and a lot of work on his own with the tape and an empty room.

Running through it with me helps fill in the details that you can't quite get by watching a video.

- Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

No sir, that is from the version you have, Via Simone Lailey.

[miked]

"It's my understanding that the numerology is linked to the Buddhist religion. It has little to do with the forms per se.

Don't forget the number 13 (seisan).

Note, by the way that 3*13 = 36. And 3*36 = 108.

And there are 108 steps to enlightenment, so the suparinpei form is always The Big Kahona. "

- Bill"

Uh Bill,

3*13 = 39 not 36.

Thus we have,

Sanchin: 3 conflicts
Seisan: 10+3=13
Sanseiryu: 3*36 = 108

I also thought there is an intermediate form taught in Goju or one of the other Okinawan systems whose name translates to a number somewhere between 36 and 108 (54?).

Am I way off base here or has anyone else heard of this form?

Mike D.
Los Angeles

[jorvik]

I wouldn't get too hung up on numbers and Buddhism ..there are two types of Buddhism Hinyana and Mayhana.greater and lesser vehicle ..............however Hinyana is what the Buddha actually said as far as we can ascertain...Mayhana is interpretation
but Mayhana is the big one in Buddhism
Thais are Hinyana .they kick ass .Jpas etc are Mayahana.....and they may well kick ass .but they don't do it half as well as the Thais ......................bit like "Deck of cards" you know Christian numerology for morons

[John Page]

I would also like to be added to the list of those interested in Sensei Campbell's book!

[Sal Jaber]

Seems to me a little bit strange , but on the kyusho short clip. The aggressor is clearly knocked out, but still manages to perform an almost perfect breakfall. Coming from a jujutsu background I can tell you that when someone is clearly out . Breakfalls do not work. Maybe its second nature, but still thought provoking. Bill, this would be some where in your realm, and I would love to read your remarks.


F.Y.I.

I will be traveling to Hong Kong in about three weeks. While there I usally spend a little time with Bob Campbell. He is a great man, and well known in Hong Kong. I have on many occasions spoken to him about writing a book. He is truly a fountain of knowledge in chinese martial arts. Its good to know that there is one on the way. See you soon Mr. Campbell

[Evan Pantazi]

Ahh love a good debate.... watch with a keen eye at these depictions of this perfect breakfall:

example-1: watch how the srtiking of the hips shoot the legs up and out in an uncontrolled manner.

example-2: note how the back of the hands and head meet the mat together as well as the body roll moving the arms with a bounce... not to mention the flat drop of the body back to the mat as opposed to a roll.

Sorry but I started in Judo 30 years ago, and have studied several Jujitsu styles... looks like it ain't so perfect to me.

[Bill Glasheen]

Uh Bill,

3*13 = 39 not 36.

So that's what a Ph.D. in engineering gets me?

Arithmetic errors aside, the point of the numerology, gang, is not to get wrapped up in it. The point is to get people's minds away from thinking that the name (a number) of the form has anything at all to do with the number of attacks, opponents, etc. in the form. It doesn't. You might as well call the form "Fred."

It's like when I finished choreographing my kicking form, and asked the class to name it. And when they offered Japanese names, I told then not to do so, as this would perpetuate "Okinawa Syndrome" and do a disservice to the form's origins. They ultimately called it "38 Special." Yes, the form had 38 kicks in it (actually 40 if you count the hidden one done on both sides...). But the name didn't come directly from the firearm. Instead, the name was taken from the name of a rock band that was popular at the time. (see 38 Special)

Works for me!

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Sal and Evan

First of all, Evan, I want you to be sure you know whom you are debating. Sal is at least a godan in traditional Japanese (battlefield) jiujitsu, and is also ranked in BJJ. He's also built like a sumo, and has probably knocked a few folks out in his day. I've been on tour with him (through Germany), and have witnessed a number of his highly entertaining and informative seminars.

That being said...

I too was skeptical when I saw the clip, Sal, and for the same reasons. Evan knows I'm always skeptical, but I try to keep an open mind. There's some stuff the kyusho people do that is the real deal, and some stuff I'm not afraid to challenge. I just try to be quiet for a bit and watch. Evan stays on the bleeding edge - to a fault - but now and then he comes up with something that I don't mind stealing.

KOs are a funny thing. There are some times when you are fully conscious, but the body betrays you. I've been in a motorcycle accident where someone thought I died or broke my back, and cautioned me to hold still. And me? I thought I was perfectly fine. I did do the right thing when I turned the bike straight into the person trying to merge in my lane, and when I rode the machine down on its side and slid for about 100 feet. But... Here I was trying to read this license number of the person attempting to escape the scene, or at least make sure she saw me in her rear view mirror with my head up reading it. She stopped. Then this guy rushes up and tells me to hold still and not move. And I tell him I'm just fine, thank you. And then... Then I realize I'm lieing down in the middle of the road looking like a truck just ran over me. So I get up. And then... Later on that evening when I got home, I noticed the snaps broken off my helmet. Damn... But I felt perfectly fine (until I tried to get out of bed the next morning) and did manage to do everything right to save my butt. I walked away from an accident that should have killed me.

Manny Neves and I had a gentleman's agreement to "go at it" on our godan tests. We each got our lumps in, and loved every bit of it. Twice Manny caught me in the neck with straight reverse punches, and my damn feet shot right out from underneath me. It didn't hurt; I just ended up on my butt. I got right back up again, and took it right back to Manny. Strange...

So that's a long way of saying... Maybe.

Give my best to Bobby, Sal!

- Bill

[jorvik]

I try to be impartial on things like Kyusho-jutsu.....but it's something that I would really like to believe in, or rather like to know as a fact.( like a benevolent father in heavan ..however there are some things that I am sure will work, and that I am sure are fact. I think that there are "nerve strikes" that Bill will accept as fact,
as indesputable "stoppers"................whether UKE was playing to the Gallery or not ..he got a hit in the carotid sinus, which I believe is extremely dangerous ( without good medicos about...and possibly even with them ).........and I think that is a bona-fide "stopper"............maybe Bill or Ian can shed some light on this

[Bill Glasheen]

Ahh yes....

Fortunately or unfortunately, thinking of that point in terms of the western view (the carotid sinus) is more complex than you think.

If you think only of it as a baroreceptor (the bifurcation has nerve fibers that detect blood vessel wall stretching), then it alone cannot produce what you see on film. Carotid massage will drop blood pressure and heart rate, but with a delay. And then older people are more susceptible to the vasovagal effect being significant than younger ones. (There are NEJM cases of folks blacking out from running their electric razors over the CS. But those are odd anecdotes, and not the norm.)

On the other hand... The carotid sinus also contains chemoreceptors which measure hydrogen ion concentration. That senses changes in blood CO2 content. Now a blow to the chemoreceptor isn't going to change blood pH at that point but... Think of the "trunk line" of combined fibers that comes out of the CS. It's a mixture of barorecepter and chemoreceptor information fibers. And then think of wacking the schit out of that line, sending a nonphysiologic signal up towards the brain, and then consider that you'll likely vibrate the whole bloody brain hitting the neck like that, well...

Indeed Modern Western Medicine analysts of kyusho such as Bruce Miller agree that the KO you get from wacking someone on the CS happens too quickly for it to be vasovagal (caused by reduction of flow to the brain). The time constant (delay) isn't right. It's really more like blowing a circuit breaker because you put 2 hairdryers in the same circuit.

Yes, jorvik, some of this stuff works. If you believe that when you whack someone in the belly that they get the wind knocked out of them (a vernacular description of the solar plexus reflex) well then you believe in SOME kind of targeted striking.

It all gets muddled though when working with cooperative partners. Then you don't know how much the power of suggestion comes into play. And that's a very, very real factor in physiologic outcomes. That why statisticians invented gold-standard experimental design techniques (such as the randomized, controlled, double-blinded test).

So at the end of the day, keep your mind open. Evan comes up with some really neat stuff - both kyusho and general kata intepretation based. He's a walking bundle of energy and ideas.

But with all this kyusho stuff, don't forget to wear your bullschit glasses. Appearances can be deceiving, and people can even deceive themselves.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Thanks Bill
Bullsc*tt goggles firmly in place

[chewy]

Am I way off base here or has anyone else heard of this form?

Mike D.
Los Angeles

Good question miked. Ever since I saw people talking about this kata here I could have sworn I'd heard its name before I picked up uechi-ryu. After a little quick digging I realized that this form may have been taught in Chito-ryu, which derives many of its kata from Goju Ryu. Here are the Goju Ryu katas (according to several web sites):

- Sanchin
- Kaishu, or open hand Kata Gekisai 1 and 2
- Heishu, or closed hand Kata Tensho
- Saifa
- Seiyunchin
- Shisochin
- Sanseiru
- Seipai
- Kururunfa
- Seisan
- Superinpei

Keep in mind, however, that some of these kata are similar in name only. Sanchin is typically performed with DT (dynamic tension) and closed hands and, from what I remember of my previous training, Seisan is totally different from the uechi form. I never saw sanseiru or superinpei performed in any style but uechi, so I have no point of reference.

Some more interesting info gleaned from Goju sites:

"Goju-Ryu's Kata origins come from the martial arts taught in the Fuzhou area of southern China, largely Crane and Xingyi/Baqua as well as other internal and external martial arts. "


chewy

[chewy]

http://www.inigmasoft.com/goju/suparenpei.mpg

WARNING - pause it and turn down the volume. for some reason this video is wicked-loud (at least it was on my machine).


Differences/similarities Bill?

I notices that goju-ryu even has there own version of a "wa-uke" .


cheers,

chewy

[Bill Glasheen]

chewy

I have a nidan in Goju, and once could perform all the Goju classical forms except Suparinpei. But I have seen that form, and even judged it at tournaments.

The Sanchin kata are for all practical purpose the same. They just emphasize different things. Miyagi Chojun closed the hands and added in dynamic tension plus the complimentary dragon breathing. And I'm not sure when they diverged on the boshiken vs. palm heel thrusts at the end, but this difference is consistent with closing the fists in the body of the kata.

The Seisan kata are highly similar until you do the first 90 degree turn. Then they are completely different kata.

The Sanseiryu kata bear no resemblance to each other.

Goju Suparinpei kata and the Fuzhou Suparinpei form I practice bear no resemblance to each other.

This reminds me a bit of the similarities between Shorin Ryu, Shotokan, and Tae quon do. They all start with some of the same foundation forms, but then diverge both in content and in emphasis towards black belt. Goju however doesn't even teach Sanchin until green belt level. Instead they start with Saifa (first classical form) and Geikisai (one of the instructional forms). In their view, Sanchin is a moderately advanced form.

- Bill