Katrina - what the hell went wrong???

Bill's forum was the first! All subjects are welcome. Participation by all encouraged.

Moderator: Available

MikeK
Posts: 3664
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Post by MikeK »

I totally agree with you about the megahomes Bill. We've been touring each one as it goes up trying to figure out what the heck they're going to do with the space. Both my wife and I like having it so we can hear our kids. We also bought our house to be practical and easy to care for. But what effect will a sharp rise in heating have on the people that buy these? What luxeries will they drop to heat the house?

Oil prices when adjusted for inflation aren't what they were in the 1980's, but it seems people are living more month to month (if not mostly on credit) now than they were back then. Also the just seeing the dollars on the pump pass by what used to be the cost for filling your tank will effect the morale of someone. You should have heard the people with the minivans and battleship RVs filling up at the Hess station at Disney this week. :lol:

Image

I remember back in the late 70's when you could buy a nice big muscle car, a almost new Monte Carlo or one of those big Cougar XR-7's for a song. I'd guess we'll be seeing a glut of Suburbans on the car lots soon.

One thing about farming, it's already pretty efficient. One of the expensive parts is getting the feed to the live stock and getting the goods to the market which means a big jump in fuel will raise cost up and down the line. Also look for Walmart stock to plunge when they can't squeeze their vendors for anymore savings. Now that's the one part I will enjoy.
I was dreaming of the past...
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editor ... g_instinct
The viciousness began almost before the storm had passed. A Wal-Mart was one of the first stores broken into; its inventory of guns promptly disappeared.

Crowds of thieves ransacked clothing stores, jewelry stores, liquor stores. In full view of television crews and news photographers -- and in some cases, even police or National Guardsmen -- looters hauled cases of stolen beer through hip-deep water, filled trash barrels with clothes, shoes, and jewelry, and crammed car trunks with computers and DVD players.

In a video clip shown on NBC, security guards joined looters in stripping one shop bare. Police officers looted, too.
So you hate guns "I won't have a gun in my house" _ sound familiar for some of you. :wink:

The argument: well that's personal property, you don't shoot those people.

Okay
Those who called early on for shooting looters on sight should have been listened to -- not because property is more valuable than human life, but because when property isn't safe from marauders, human life isn't, either. When thugs find out they can get away with looting, they're apt to conclude they can get away with anything.
On Thursday, New Orleans Police Chief Eddie Compass described the savagery inside the convention center, where 15,000 people had taken shelter: ''We have individuals who are getting raped; we have individuals who are getting beaten." He sent 88 police officers to restore order; they were beaten back by a mob.

Police snipers took up positions on precinct roofs, on guard against the armed gangs who were roaming the city. Not all the corpses turning up in New Orleans were of drowning victims. Some had been shot to death. The Federal Emergency Management Agency was trying to operate, director Michael Brown said, ''under conditions of urban warfare."
Not all the corpses turning up in New Orleans were of drowning victims. Some had been shot to death. The Federal Emergency Management Agency was trying to operate, director Michael Brown said, ''under conditions of urban warfare.
Now here is the question: imagine you and your family in the jaws of Katrina and its aftermath.
Would you have been better off __ or worse off if you had been able to strap an AK-47 to your shoulders or a Colt .45 to your waist in the fog of violence?


Image __

Image
Van
Guest

Post by Guest »

Ammunition was the first thing to be depleted here, even before plywood and gasoline. I manged to score a box of 7mm Magnum but I paid almost 30 for them, when they where usually around 20. Turns out, I really didn't need it anyway, people where civil around here, even on the "poor" side of town.
Victor
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Derry, NH, USA
Contact:

Post by Victor »

When I heard the former head of the Army Corps of Engineers for NO describe how the money should have been spent to complete the levies over 30 years ago, it struck me how is it justified that Boston needed the billions more for the Big Dig than spending the money down South.

Was congress remiss when they focused on NE over NO?
Victor Smith
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Yeah, even if you take the human suffering out of the equation, and just look at what it did to America's resources i.e. her oil.......well I guess then you have to ask some questions.
Victor
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Derry, NH, USA
Contact:

Post by Victor »

Certainly we can't ignore the human suffering, which has been incalculable, and it will take years before its full toll is understood. The pain really hasn't yet begun. But America is powerful and in time, somehow, we will move past this.

But with the common knowledge this was always a disaster waiting to happen, with horrendous human loss, horrendous strategic implications to America's oil requirements, horrendous strategic implications to America's Export and Import shipping needs, there seems to have been a very large, long term choice of looking the other way just because that disaster didn't happen recently.

Unfortunately, there seems to be much screaming 'off with their heads' for a convenient answer and not a thorough study of which heads are ultimately responsible for allowing the area to develop as it has with the collective leadership heads in holes in the ground at every level.

If anything, even as powerful and potentially capable as we are as a nation, it seems to highlite the larger implications of power un-used, abused and forgotten, and the true limitations of a political system that runs on feeding its own belly.

Kind of brings into light how all decision making is addressed.
Victor Smith
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

The Bronze Dago wrote:Ammunition was the first thing to be depleted here, even before plywood and gasoline. I managed to score a box of 7mm Magnum but I paid almost 30 for them, when they where usually around 20. Turns out, I really didn't need it anyway, people where civil around here, even on the "poor" side of town.
I keep reading about the gang violence, the snipers, the shooting of rescue teams, the pillaging, the rapes, the cold blood random 'executions' of defenseless people in the jaws of impending death.

Armed people seemed to survive longer, as the gangbangers moved on to easier 'pickings'_

Having the right kind of firearms _ more than a few, extra ammo, knives, it also helps in bartering for other 'survival goods' _

Wearing and or displaying the 'right' weapons will stave off
Murderous intent. Recall the La riots and the Koreans' return fire.
Koreans, armed with rifles, ferociously guarding their businesses from looting and fire. The riots made the city's Koreans visible; and their determination seems to have reaped rewards.
Image

~~

Image


We have seen unrestrained violence, looting, raping, and random killings.

And it should be obvious that the mass hysteria and unbridled fear stemming from the magnitude of such a crisis will exacerbate the hatred and fragmentation that already existed in that society.

You see normally decent people who didn’t prepare and who will try to take what they need by whatever means necessary.

Even if you are able to evacuate, there is a good chance you will be mired in a sea of blocked traffic facing despondent and dangerous people all around. You will also face attack by feral animals_ dogs turned into wolves, etc.

You need to ‘pack your wagon’ with the right survival battery.

A long range rifle is okay, but it should be of a very popular caliber, such as a 30-06 / .308_

A bolt action ‘sporter’ is not as effective for urban warfare as a good ‘battle rifle’ _ M-1 Garand_ short and medium range hi-cap and visually intimidating rifles such as the Ar-15_ and AK-47..Which will function under any condition.

12 gauge shotguns are a must, and 1911 .45s very desirable for their stopping power and intimidating look.
Van
Guest

Post by Guest »

Van, hopefully, next hurricane season, i'll have that Springfield SOCOM 16 with a Holoscope on it.
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

It's been very telling on the news seeing police going through neighborhoods in New Orleans with rifles intentionally displayed out the driver's window. Troops escort emergency workers with automatic weapons in clear display.

It's also telling that we don't see the frequency of this type of violence in Mississippi, where the governor stated on television that looters would be treated "ruthlessly." We also didn't see it in New York after 9/11 with Rudy showing a strong presence in the face of chaos.

Once again, nature abhors a vacuum. Certain areas of the stricken Gulf region have been victim of a lack of leadership. And once the tyranny begins Baghdad style, it's pretty damn difficult to get order again.

As comical as it sounds, we should be taking lessons from our own Wild West movies. Even better... I was musing this morning about the de-emphasis of classics such as Grimm's Fairy Tales. Imbedded in many of these classics are life lessons that become so important when we learn about the true nature of (wo)man under myriad conditions. Somehow it has become politically incorrect to tell such "violent" tales out of fear of inducing violence in children and perpetuating inappropriate stereotypes. Fine... But what replaces this? What makes any society immune to natural disaster and subsequent man's inhumanity to man if we have forgotten history?

Food for thought...

- Bill
Guest

Post by Guest »

This is what looters will face in my neighborhood next hurricane season:

Image
User avatar
TSDguy
Posts: 1831
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2001 6:01 am

Post by TSDguy »

This is some good oration and very entertaining:

http://media.putfile.com/OlbermannSwings
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Interesting indeed.

For all those willing to give a single Texas politician a hard time, has
anyone noted how smoothly Texas was able to absorb, process, and
redistribute the vast majority of the refugees from hapless Louisianna?

And is anyone yet noticing that Mississippi - epicenter of the category 5
attack - is not under the scrutiny of TV cameras looking for a story? I see a
future national leader in the making there.

Save your judgment here. In the best-case scenario, handling a tragedy of
biblical proportion take cooperation at every level. One weak link in the cog
and it takes the damn Marines to come in, kick some butt, and turn chaos
back to order. That's essentially what happend in and around New Orleans.
All we get is the television parade of political baffoons whining about what
isn't happening, and sour grape journalists dancing to the tragedy of others.

This morning even Hillary was on TV demanding an investigation. God help
us!

- Bill
Gene DeMambro
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A

Post by Gene DeMambro »

Scientists, jourmalist and officials of the Federal government were warning for years about the great peril the Mississippi Delta was in in the event of a hurricane. As recently as this past congressional session, Rep. Bobby Jindal (R-LA) was pleading with Congress to let Louisiana keep a greater share of oil revenues so they can build greater protections. He was rebuffed utterly. Where were the "State's Rightist" supporters in Congress then?

New Orleans has always a certain amount of lawless quality about it. We go there on conventions and enjoy the fact hat we can walk down the street with an open container of alcohol. We go to Bourbon Street and enjoy the baudiness of it all. We go to Mardi Gras and revel in the debauchery. Then we wonder why people descend into these depths.

Mississippi and Alabama didn't have a city of almost half a million people destroyed. They sufferred terrible damage, to be sure, but NO got it worse. So I'm not quite sure the examples are completely generalizable.
Governor Barbour, meanwhile, stated that his experience with the Federal Government was quite different,
Think of this the next time a candidate for office says, "elect me because I am a Washington outsider"!

Gene
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mississippi and Alabama didn't have a city of almost half a million people
destroyed. They sufferred terrible damage, to be sure, but NO got it worse.
New Orleans had every opportunity not to be the poster child of the
tragedy. But instead of continuing with an evacuation plan, they boasted
about how the levees had held before the run-off from the storm had filled
Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi. They housed people in a
Superdome guaranteed to be flooded once the levees broke. By recent
news accounts they released prisoners and let them mingle with the
refugees, possibly contributing to the mayhem (looting, rapes, murders,
random shooting) that followed the storm. Governor Blanco didn't declare
martial law when she should have, and didn't call on the local National
Guard - at her disposal, BTW.

Having three physician friends in Baton Rouge, I'm getting an interesting
inside story to what's going on. It isn't pretty. The good news is that the
80% with means have fled and have found a way. The bad news is that the
remaining 20% have been left to the wolves and the incompetents.

If it wasn't for Texas, things would be much, much worse. If it wasn't for the
fact that New Orleans got a glancing blow (they got the west side of the
storm), things would be much, much worse.
Gene wrote: Scientists, jourmalist and officials of the Federal government were warning for years
about the great peril the Mississippi Delta was in in the event of a hurricane.
They sure have. Build a city in the bull’s-eye of hurricane alley, and what do
you expect? Build levees and cause shrink-swell earth to sink well below
sea level, and what do you expect?
Gene wrote: As recently as this past congressional session, Rep. Bobby Jindal (R-LA)
was pleading with Congress to let Louisiana keep a greater share of oil
revenues so they can build greater protections. He was rebuffed utterly.
Where were the "State's Rightist" supporters in Congress then?

What does asking the Federal Government for a handout have to do with
supporting State's Rights? Please explain.

I don't recall Richmond getting Federal Government money to build its
flood walls and levees. And they don't have an oil economy that could have
paid for it. Furthermore, Richmond did not allow residential zoning of known
flood areas.

The Federal Government is supposed to supply a safety net. "State's
Rights" advocates are all about personal responsibility and independence
from federal intrusion. Texas has done a really good job of using its own
oil revenue (after taxes) to deal with environmental concerns - so much so
that they occasionally joke about seceding from The Union. Today they are
losing millions a week in convention money from their facilities to house
Lousianna victims. They did it without being asked, and aren't asking for
anything in return.

Much of the engineering mess in New Orleans is self-imposed. And a
lawless attitude and living near the edge is great, so long as people don't
complain when bad things happen. The whole point of living on the edge is
the very real danger of falling off. In societies where that experience is
valued, you don't hear them bemoaning their misfortunes.

Yes, there are national implications to New Orleans faltering, just as there
would be if the California or Florida agricultural industry faltered. But since
the writing has been on the wall a long time, it seems that local interests
should have taken it upon themselves to do what was in the interest of
their citizens. By your account and others, Gene, there's plenty of money
going through that economy to deal with the issues raised without asking
for too much help from outside. And a solution for a nearly impossible
situation doesn't have to be perfect for it to be viable.

Bill
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Space (provided to kick next post onto a subsequent page).

Please refrain from posting oversized pictures.

Bill
Post Reply

Return to “Bill Glasheen's Dojo Roundtable”