Could "we" be wrong about global warming?

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:24 pm

I'm just looking for an excuse to eat that high calorie cupcake my wife bought.

If my species is doomed for extinction, what's the point of not indulging!

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:25 pm

f.Channell wrote:
If my species is doomed for extinction, what's the point of not indulging!

Because doomsday is a long way off - probably at least one more ice age away. Meanwhile, you'll have to live with the body you eat yourself into. And I don't see any miracles in the health care plans being batted around by the (federal) government. That's the same government trying to pass cap-and-trade legislation in a recessionary economy.

But eat what you want!

- Bill

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:16 am

So I cut it in half after a bike ride! Only half as guilty.
If we're around as long as dinosaurs we got a lot of living left.

I was just watching life after people, that is always interesting.

F.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:29 am

f.Channell wrote:
So I cut it in half after a bike ride! Only half as guilty.

No need to feel guilty if calories in equals calories out, and it's an occasional indulgence. Enjoy!

And besides, the body needs high glycemic index carbohydrates after a workout so you can replenish those glycogen reserves.

By the way, that is a most colorful treat in that picture. Presentation really makes it!

- Bill

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:33 am

Exercise, enjoy a cupcake and if near a volcano watch out for the mazuku.

f.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:43 am

Don't remind me. They fed my dog table scraps yesterday. Next day...

- Bill

Valkenar · Post by **Valkenar** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:06 pm

My environmental concerns are basically rooted in quality of life issues. I'm not scared of humanity being wiped out or all the animals being wiped out, etc. The degradation of the environment damages human health in measurable ways. Mercury in fish is one obvious one. Then there's increasing asthma, cancer, autism... lots of things that we have don't have a solid and airtight case for blaming on pollution but which I would lay pretty good money on being our own stupid fault.

And on another level, I personally think plants and animals are pretty cool and that it's sad that we're driving them to extinction en mass, but I recognize there are lots of people who don't care at all. It'll just be a little wistful describing lions and monkeys to my grandkids the way I describe dinosaurs now.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:08 pm

Valkenar wrote:
Mercury in fish is one obvious one.

Most of that comes from burning coal. An alternative way to extract energy is the answer there.

Valkenar wrote:
Then there's increasing asthma, cancer

Neither is caused by more CO2. The asthma increase also is an interesting one. That may have as much to do with mold, pollen, and roaches as it does with anything else.

Valkenar wrote:
autism...

No link between autism and anything we know. We're not even sure that there is an increase in incidence as much as there is an increase in detection. There's a big difference.

Valkenar wrote:
lots of things that we have don't have a solid and airtight case for blaming on pollution but which I would lay pretty good money on being our own stupid fault.

We should include an increase in life expectancy, which causes new age-related diseases to show up. The net of human activity (so far) has been positive.

Fair is fair...

Valkenar wrote:
And on another level, I personally think plants and animals are pretty cool and that it's sad that we're driving them to extinction en mass...

Understandable.

We can't stop extinctions; that is a natural process. Species come and go. However I'm a big proponent of biodiversity. That's a good index of the health of a planet.

- Bill

Valkenar · Post by **Valkenar** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:45 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote: Neither is caused by more CO2. The asthma increase also is an interesting one. That may have as much to do with mold, pollen, and roaches as it does with anything else.

Didn't say it was. As far as CO2 goes specifically to me it's more about: if CO2=global warming and global warming = flooded coastal cities then that means maybe we don't want more CO2. I phrased it this way specifically because I realize you don't accept the CO2/global warming link, but most of what I think is bad about global warming is things like massive drought and misery. Desertification is an issue too but not as big a one.

No link between autism and anything we know. We're not even sure that there is an increase in incidence as much as there is an increase in detection. There's a big difference.

Yup, that could be.

We should include an increase in life expectancy, which causes new age-related diseases to show up. The net of human activity (so far) has been positive.

Sure, net human activity is positive. I wasn't suggesting we go back to living in caves. Just that at this point I think it's reasonable to consider something other than maximum profit at any cost once in a while.

We can't stop extinctions; that is a natural process. Species come and go.

Well we sort of can, but I don't think it's important to all the time. But there's a huge difference between not trying to stop extinctions and wantonly extinctifying everything in sight. If people were to stop driving various things to extinction left and right I think that would be a positive step. We can worry about interesting things that are going extinct from non-human sources after.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:45 am

The warming up and melting of the glaciers and water levels rising is certainly a concern. An unfortunate aside to warmer gulf waters is it increases both hurricane and tornado activity. Tornadoes being the #1 cause of death do to weather related activity. Hurricane I think is 4th off the top of my head. Lightening and floods are 2 and 3. And of course the higher the population the higher the death toll.
Still very small compared to the 2004 tsunami however.

Plant life is bad to lose. Possibly the cure for cancer or an algae which can be mass produced for biofuel wiped out in a rain forest is not good.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:29 am

And yet in spite of the dire predictions,

Hurricane seasons have been mild
Global temps have been cooling
Sea level hasn't been rising.

Weather changes all by itself - irrespective of any actions by humans.

The Medieval Warm Period (MWP) or Medieval Climate Optimum was a time of warm climate in the North Atlantic region, lasting from about the tenth century to about the fourteenth century. It was followed by a cooler period in the North Atlantic termed as the Little Ice Age.

***

During the MWP wine grapes were grown in Europe as far north as southern Britain.

As for plant life... More is better. It is worth mentioning that - on average - there would be more available water (NOT more deserts) and better plant growing conditions if things got warmer and/or if there was more CO2. Usually however the CO2 rise FOLLOWS temperature increases. It's Henry's law, or the law of the warm soda.

- Bill

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:07 am

From what I heard bill we can expect on average 10 more hurricanes per year due to ocean temps. Of course year to year will vary.
I haven't heard of that temp rise during those centuries, have to look into it.
I know during 1783-84 there was a large decrease in temp in Europe due to a volcano, Framklin wrote about it while there in France and rightly figured it's cause to be ash from a volcano. There was also a year without summer in New England in 1802-03. Also the Mississippi froze over in unusualy spots that year.

F.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:45 am

In the 1940's there were flights over several glaciers and the flight data, altitude was recorded. They recently ran the same flights and the image comparison between the two is frightening. I'll see if I can find it.
Comparisons over a span of 60 years are a better measure.

With global warming one frightening possibility is WWIII. Glaciers are the main water source for several Asian countries. Those glaciers are receding quickly. Take away something you can't do without like water and people will do anything to survive, including throwing anything our way as their civilization dies.

http://www.relocalize.net/node/897

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 113346.htm

Naturally things can change, that's the whim of nature.

F.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:49 am

1977 comparison to recent. Honeycomb glacier, Washington State

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:26 am

Bill Glasheen wrote: [*] Sea level hasn't been rising.

?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sea_level_rise