Panther
What instructors do with their students in Uechi ryu sanchin varies tremendously from dojo to dojo. This is just as true in Okinawa as it is in the states.
You should know that none of the "old guys" (Uechi Kanei, Tomoyose Ryuko) were involved in the macho, gratuitous beatings. This is something that has evolved. It is not necessary for studying Uechi Ryu. There are partner exercises (back and forth stuff) where this type of stuff is much more appropriate. And even there, one is supposed to work with the partner rather than compete or abuse.
The striking part of sanchin checking is supposed to be a means of checking posture rather than an endurance or pain tolerance contest. All the beatings evolved out of public demonstrations. It is the equivalent of board breaking, if you know what I mean.
Before studying from any Uechi instructor, I highly recommend you know them well or watch one of their classes. You will know what you need to know fairly quickly. And if you are ever in Virginia, you are more than welcome to work with me.
I do not view your concerns as signs of being a wuss; I view them as a mark of intelligence.
- Bill
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
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Bill Glasheen
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JOHN THURSTON
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Hi:
As Glasheen Sensei indicates, this "hard" testing (really hard striking) appears to be something that evolved. By whom and when would seem to be another question.
Generally the clear guidline for and instructor would be NOT to strike anywhere harder than the particular student would "appreciate". By this use of the word I mean "learn from".
In my mini Dojo, I rarely test other than prodding with my fingers to areas which should be focused, unless I am trying to make a point.
The point would be that other instructors and Dojos do not test/strike lightly, and sooner or later the student will be hit hard by someone in testing.
As long as the testing stays with the parameters of doing no real harm to the student (physically or mentally) then I suppose I would not raise a fuss.
However, at a "Seminar" in the western part of this state Black Belt candidates were really hit beyond their capacities from my point of view.
Was this because they were not in the condition the Okinawan Master or Sensei deemed sufficient or was it excessive?
I do not know. It is a recurring question.
In OKK circles locally the candidate's instructor does the testing before the board on the theory that the Instructor should know EXACTLY how hard to test.
I agree with this theory.
JT
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As Glasheen Sensei indicates, this "hard" testing (really hard striking) appears to be something that evolved. By whom and when would seem to be another question.
Generally the clear guidline for and instructor would be NOT to strike anywhere harder than the particular student would "appreciate". By this use of the word I mean "learn from".
In my mini Dojo, I rarely test other than prodding with my fingers to areas which should be focused, unless I am trying to make a point.
The point would be that other instructors and Dojos do not test/strike lightly, and sooner or later the student will be hit hard by someone in testing.
As long as the testing stays with the parameters of doing no real harm to the student (physically or mentally) then I suppose I would not raise a fuss.
However, at a "Seminar" in the western part of this state Black Belt candidates were really hit beyond their capacities from my point of view.
Was this because they were not in the condition the Okinawan Master or Sensei deemed sufficient or was it excessive?
I do not know. It is a recurring question.
In OKK circles locally the candidate's instructor does the testing before the board on the theory that the Instructor should know EXACTLY how hard to test.
I agree with this theory.
JT
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
JT-san,
I believe you bring up an excellent point that I hope members of the IUKF pick up on. Although I am not a member (yet!) I am very interested in the concern this organization has for developing and protecting standards and preserving the art of Uechi-ryu on this continent. As part of the development of standards - I hope that the issue of sanchin testing - and who performs the "testing" on the candidate and is discussed... too many injuries have resulted from someone "checking" someone they don't know or have never worked with. I like the idea of the instructor testing the candidate - knowing the limits and abilities of same. Although I HAVE seen an instructor or two really slam into their candidates to perhaps "prove a point" - another issue perhaps that the IUKF can address.
Just two cents worth from a small-fry.
Lori
I believe you bring up an excellent point that I hope members of the IUKF pick up on. Although I am not a member (yet!) I am very interested in the concern this organization has for developing and protecting standards and preserving the art of Uechi-ryu on this continent. As part of the development of standards - I hope that the issue of sanchin testing - and who performs the "testing" on the candidate and is discussed... too many injuries have resulted from someone "checking" someone they don't know or have never worked with. I like the idea of the instructor testing the candidate - knowing the limits and abilities of same. Although I HAVE seen an instructor or two really slam into their candidates to perhaps "prove a point" - another issue perhaps that the IUKF can address.
Just two cents worth from a small-fry.
Lori
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Thanks for all the responses... They're really helpful. As I said, even though my (Goju) Sanchin was checked and I learned immeasurably from that, I was never struck with a closed fist and was told to never let that happen. Not to say that I didn't have some hard checking, but as pointed out here, it was for me not my or anyone elses "machismo".
You all understand my concern...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by Lori:
... too many injuries have resulted from someone "checking" someone they don't know or have never worked with. I like the idea of the instructor testing the candidate - knowing the limits and abilities of same. Although I HAVE seen an instructor or two really slam into their candidates to perhaps "prove a point" - another issue perhaps that the IUKF can address.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by John Thurston:
The point would be that other instructors and Dojos do not test/strike lightly, and sooner or later the student will be hit hard by someone in testing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmmmm...
See, I fear I'd fail the test... Because I couldn't "take a punch"? No... Because I won't take a punch (without blocking, evading, moving, avoiding, "swallowing", something... perhaps just walking away...)
Incidental bruises come with this type of training... as budo-ka, we're bound to take a shot sometime... missed block, lack of control in a strike... However, I just don't feel I need (intentional?) bruises (and perhaps other internal injuries) to wear as a badge of my training...
I guess if I go to a Uechi dojo with someone who is highly regarded and has a highly recommended reputation, one where I've watched a class (advanced) as Glasheen-sempai suggested and have seen some (IMO) borderline Sanchin "testing", before I start, I could just lay this as one of my "ground-rules" and see what the reaction is. If I get the "we do it the way we do it... deal with it" position, I probably should move on... otherwise, it sounds like the suggestion is that at some point I'll have to deal with it from another "instructor"... I guess I could just go and train at a Uechi school that fits me and forget ever going for a Dan test or any rank... That's OK too, at this point in my life, belts aren't at the top of my list anyway.
Years ago, I would have stood firm and taken whatever was dished out... Being older, wiser and much more decrepid as well as understanding health implications that I see too many folks ignoring... well... I guess everyone gets the picture. I just want to learn and get back into shape without having to be someone's punching bag to do it.
BTW, I studied kyusho applications years ago, but knowing what the ramifications of many of the strikes is... I can't understand how anyone would ever stand there and allow someone to do some of those things to them. It's like smoking... People know it's bad for their health and can/will kill them and then they do it anyway! I know there are "revitalization" techniques, but...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 17, 2000).]
You all understand my concern...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by Lori:
... too many injuries have resulted from someone "checking" someone they don't know or have never worked with. I like the idea of the instructor testing the candidate - knowing the limits and abilities of same. Although I HAVE seen an instructor or two really slam into their candidates to perhaps "prove a point" - another issue perhaps that the IUKF can address.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by John Thurston:
The point would be that other instructors and Dojos do not test/strike lightly, and sooner or later the student will be hit hard by someone in testing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmmmm...
See, I fear I'd fail the test... Because I couldn't "take a punch"? No... Because I won't take a punch (without blocking, evading, moving, avoiding, "swallowing", something... perhaps just walking away...)
Incidental bruises come with this type of training... as budo-ka, we're bound to take a shot sometime... missed block, lack of control in a strike... However, I just don't feel I need (intentional?) bruises (and perhaps other internal injuries) to wear as a badge of my training...
I guess if I go to a Uechi dojo with someone who is highly regarded and has a highly recommended reputation, one where I've watched a class (advanced) as Glasheen-sempai suggested and have seen some (IMO) borderline Sanchin "testing", before I start, I could just lay this as one of my "ground-rules" and see what the reaction is. If I get the "we do it the way we do it... deal with it" position, I probably should move on... otherwise, it sounds like the suggestion is that at some point I'll have to deal with it from another "instructor"... I guess I could just go and train at a Uechi school that fits me and forget ever going for a Dan test or any rank... That's OK too, at this point in my life, belts aren't at the top of my list anyway.
Years ago, I would have stood firm and taken whatever was dished out... Being older, wiser and much more decrepid as well as understanding health implications that I see too many folks ignoring... well... I guess everyone gets the picture. I just want to learn and get back into shape without having to be someone's punching bag to do it. BTW, I studied kyusho applications years ago, but knowing what the ramifications of many of the strikes is... I can't understand how anyone would ever stand there and allow someone to do some of those things to them. It's like smoking... People know it's bad for their health and can/will kill them and then they do it anyway! I know there are "revitalization" techniques, but...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 17, 2000).]
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
As in anything, moderation is the key. Being hit with the fist in various parts of the body can be useful to develop a certain “mental toughness” as well. __ Toughening up exercises, such as arm and leg pounding, and toe kicking [Sokusen] are a Uechi –Ryu signature and not to indulge in it _ defeats the rai·son d'ê·tre of the system!
See the following from the German Forum:
“In contrast to other styles of karate, Uechi-Ryu is characterized by a narrow stance, circular blocking techniques, techniques with the fingertips, the phalanx of the finger, the bent thumb, the palm of the hand and very effective attacks with the tips of the toes. These techniques have remained nearly unchanged since the 19th century and are famous for their efficiency. Toughening-up exercise is of great importance. Special methods of training make it possible for the karateka, over the course of time, to take very hard beatings without suffering any harm.”
But, as I said, moderation is the key. The hitting with the fist must be done slowly and increase in intensity over time but only for the students who welcome such an approach. Some students need extreme “hitting” to feel like they are getting somewhere with their training.
If a student is involved in much tournament competition, then this type of conditioning is useful to get them through the “lumps” to the finals. Good examples of this are Gary Khoury and Bob Spoon who are very difficult to “hurt” to the sidelines.
For the average karate-ka concerned with street defense, it is not as essential, although helpful at a lesser level. Programming to take a hit in the street can be tactically destructive, and programming you will, if you spend all your time taking hits.
Lots of people in extreme conditioning mode, have a tendency to believe they are supermen in the street, something very, very far from the truth. Even if they could take solid hits to the body in a gutter fight [something that should not be encouraged because of the sudden appearance of a weapon too late to evade] they will subconsciously stand their ground where they should move a la David Moy style [greased lighting]! When they stand their ground too much they will invariably be hit in the head__ blocking not withstanding, and down they go, hopefully only knocked out and not with a slashed throat!
And yet what panther is concerned about is, unfortunately, an item in some Uechi schools.
There are some individuals who relish beating on students [albeit in the minority], and love to show off how though they are in arm and leg pounding to the point of hurting themselves and others for no reason other than inflated ego __ look, look, ain’t I tough? __ But when you ask them to enter a full contact/knockout tournament, or Vale tudo fight, they will give all kinds of excuses why they won’t!
So there must be a balance here. But to find it, that is the question !
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Van Canna
See the following from the German Forum:
“In contrast to other styles of karate, Uechi-Ryu is characterized by a narrow stance, circular blocking techniques, techniques with the fingertips, the phalanx of the finger, the bent thumb, the palm of the hand and very effective attacks with the tips of the toes. These techniques have remained nearly unchanged since the 19th century and are famous for their efficiency. Toughening-up exercise is of great importance. Special methods of training make it possible for the karateka, over the course of time, to take very hard beatings without suffering any harm.”
But, as I said, moderation is the key. The hitting with the fist must be done slowly and increase in intensity over time but only for the students who welcome such an approach. Some students need extreme “hitting” to feel like they are getting somewhere with their training.
If a student is involved in much tournament competition, then this type of conditioning is useful to get them through the “lumps” to the finals. Good examples of this are Gary Khoury and Bob Spoon who are very difficult to “hurt” to the sidelines.
For the average karate-ka concerned with street defense, it is not as essential, although helpful at a lesser level. Programming to take a hit in the street can be tactically destructive, and programming you will, if you spend all your time taking hits.
Lots of people in extreme conditioning mode, have a tendency to believe they are supermen in the street, something very, very far from the truth. Even if they could take solid hits to the body in a gutter fight [something that should not be encouraged because of the sudden appearance of a weapon too late to evade] they will subconsciously stand their ground where they should move a la David Moy style [greased lighting]! When they stand their ground too much they will invariably be hit in the head__ blocking not withstanding, and down they go, hopefully only knocked out and not with a slashed throat!
And yet what panther is concerned about is, unfortunately, an item in some Uechi schools.
There are some individuals who relish beating on students [albeit in the minority], and love to show off how though they are in arm and leg pounding to the point of hurting themselves and others for no reason other than inflated ego __ look, look, ain’t I tough? __ But when you ask them to enter a full contact/knockout tournament, or Vale tudo fight, they will give all kinds of excuses why they won’t!
So there must be a balance here. But to find it, that is the question !
------------------
Van Canna
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Hi:
I am in total accord with Lori and Van on this one, if that is possible. Moderation is key.
Having 'hurt' and lost one student (he was not 'injured') 15 years ago in testing, I am not going to repeat that error.
That allowance of being hit does develop a certain 'mental toughness' but it is boosted along by the knowledge that a competent and/or considerate Tester will not do one permanent or lasting injury.
As noted, only the areas 'which can be defended by moderate focus' and not Kyusho points etc. are/should be tested.
My senior was quite wroth with the 'gangbusters' testing at that 'seminar' in the Western part of this state some years ago (I am being deliberately vague here) and said, as you might say Panther) 'anyone can unload on someone who's just standing there'.
A two way street of trust that should exist.
John
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I am in total accord with Lori and Van on this one, if that is possible. Moderation is key.
Having 'hurt' and lost one student (he was not 'injured') 15 years ago in testing, I am not going to repeat that error.
That allowance of being hit does develop a certain 'mental toughness' but it is boosted along by the knowledge that a competent and/or considerate Tester will not do one permanent or lasting injury.
As noted, only the areas 'which can be defended by moderate focus' and not Kyusho points etc. are/should be tested.
My senior was quite wroth with the 'gangbusters' testing at that 'seminar' in the Western part of this state some years ago (I am being deliberately vague here) and said, as you might say Panther) 'anyone can unload on someone who's just standing there'.
A two way street of trust that should exist.
John
------------------
